38 replies to this topic

[deiselaewireless]

i pretty much agree with the rest of you, churches should be taxed... its only fair.

[Cript]

Something a lot of you are forgetting is that social welfare organizations aren't taxed. For instance, AA isn't taxed...a lot of people consider Church and Religion necessary for their social welfare. Are you seriously that pious to think you know more about their social welfare than they do?

i pretty much agree with the rest of you, churches should be taxed... its only fair.

Fair to whom?

[Akira]

Cript...I think that you are missing the point.

We keep saying that those MASSIVE churches that rake in RIDICULOUS profits should be taxed, while the little churches should not be.

And, quite honestly...

What A.A. Does Not Do
A.A. does not:

1. Furnish initial motivation for alcoholics to recover

2. Solicit members

3. Engage in or sponsor research

4. Keep attendance records or case histories

5. Join “councils” of social agencies

6. Follow up or try to control its members

7. Make medical or psychological diagnoses or prognoses

8. Provide drying-out or nursing services, hospitalization, drugs, or any medical or psychiatric treatment

9. Offer religious services

10. Engage in education about alcohol

11. Provide housing, food, clothing, jobs, money, or any other welfare or social services

12. Provide domestic or vocational counseling

13. Accept any money for its services, or any contributions from non-A.A. sources

14. Provide letters of reference to parole boards, lawyers, court officials, social agencies, employers, etc.

That was taken right from the AA website. Unlike the church, AA doesn't control, and it does not beg, demand, nor accept donations, unlike the church.

I think someone might be a little too pious...you are showing a common crazy religious attribute that I like to call IFFY, or Ignore the Facts in Front of You. We said something, and you leaped right over it to tell us that we were wrong. What you forget is that we can access google at any time, and grab info at any time to back up what we say.

Hell, I'm gonna speak in third person now.

Akira wonders who is benefiting from this:

Old lady fritters away her life savings to give to her church. Church gives to 'charity' in Africa. By 'charity', they mean 'missionary', who essentially feed the people and hand them the bible, in an attempt to convert them. Church is basically being funded to spread, and therefore gets to rake in more money from different countries.

OR

Old man gives to the Vatican, happy to donate to God. Pope wants golden toilet. So, donations go to golden toilet, coupled with two boy slaves to lift the Pope onto the toilet, which is a foot off of the ground.

That second one was comical, for those of us that go ape-shit crazy whenever a Catholic pun comes around the corner >.>

Akira has a problem with charity giving. For starters, despite all of this work that the Christians are doing, American charities are still struggling to help people. That's because the Christians outsource to different countries, which is all fine and dandy...but Akira always thought that it was best to fix the harbor before sending out a ship full of supplies, you know?

And again, Akira reached back to his earlier point: Why is it that as soon as BIG churches get taxed, or religion gets banned, that all charity in the world would cease to exist? That, my friend, sounds like Christian pious bias...and that's just three words that Akira ain't too fond of.

-End of third person mindless rambling-

So you see, Cript, the problem with the churches is the BIG ASS ones that shove their noses into everything that is not their business, and wield quite a bit of power. If they were taxed, maybe they would not have so much bribing money. LITTLE churches would not get taxed, BIG ones would.

Must I put that in bold?

And, I apologize if I offended anyone >.> I get fired up about religion.

[Cript]

Cript...I think that you are missing the point.

We keep saying that those MASSIVE churches that rake in RIDICULOUS profits should be taxed, while the little churches should not be.

And, quite honestly...

What A.A. Does Not Do
A.A. does not:

1. Furnish initial motivation for alcoholics to recover

2. Solicit members

3. Engage in or sponsor research

4. Keep attendance records or case histories

5. Join “councils” of social agencies

6. Follow up or try to control its members

7. Make medical or psychological diagnoses or prognoses

8. Provide drying-out or nursing services, hospitalization, drugs, or any medical or psychiatric treatment

9. Offer religious services

10. Engage in education about alcohol

11. Provide housing, food, clothing, jobs, money, or any other welfare or social services

12. Provide domestic or vocational counseling

13. Accept any money for its services, or any contributions from non-A.A. sources

14. Provide letters of reference to parole boards, lawyers, court officials, social agencies, employers, etc.

That was taken right from the AA website. Unlike the church, AA doesn't control, and it does not beg, demand, nor accept donations, unlike the church.

I think someone might be a little too pious...you are showing a common crazy religious attribute that I like to call IFFY, or Ignore the Facts in Front of You. We said something, and you leaped right over it to tell us that we were wrong. What you forget is that we can access google at any time, and grab info at any time to back up what we say.

Hell, I'm gonna speak in third person now.

Akira wonders who is benefiting from this:

Old lady fritters away her life savings to give to her church. Church gives to 'charity' in Africa. By 'charity', they mean 'missionary', who essentially feed the people and hand them the bible, in an attempt to convert them. Church is basically being funded to spread, and therefore gets to rake in more money from different countries.

OR

Old man gives to the Vatican, happy to donate to God. Pope wants golden toilet. So, donations go to golden toilet, coupled with two boy slaves to lift the Pope onto the toilet, which is a foot off of the ground.

That second one was comical, for those of us that go ape-shit crazy whenever a Catholic pun comes around the corner >.>

Akira has a problem with charity giving. For starters, despite all of this work that the Christians are doing, American charities are still struggling to help people. That's because the Christians outsource to different countries, which is all fine and dandy...but Akira always thought that it was best to fix the harbor before sending out a ship full of supplies, you know?

And again, Akira reached back to his earlier point: Why is it that as soon as BIG churches get taxed, or religion gets banned, that all charity in the world would cease to exist? That, my friend, sounds like Christian pious bias...and that's just three words that Akira ain't too fond of.

-End of third person mindless rambling-

So you see, Cript, the problem with the churches is the BIG ASS ones that shove their noses into everything that is not their business, and wield quite a bit of power. If they were taxed, maybe they would not have so much bribing money. LITTLE churches would not get taxed, BIG ones would.

Must I put that in bold?

And, I apologize if I offended anyone >.> I get fired up about religion.

Plenty of Christians donate because it's what God would have people do.

Plenty of people in this thread have said abolish/make religion illegal. That's what I'm saying to you...I wouldn't care if the Vatican and other huge churches were taxed...Selling indulgences and other corrupt practices were the reason Lutheranism began in the first place. I'm a member of a monetarily struggling church and thinking that people say we ought to be taxed is just nuts to me.

[Akira]

Plenty of Christians donate because it's what God would have people do.

Which does not make them just or holy people. At all. If they literally need the threat of punishment in order to donate, then they sure as hell aren't kind; they're cowardly. They're afraid of going to hell, so they dish out five bucks for people that they really don't care about. That...does not justify it. This, yet again, makes me scratch my head and wonder:

Illegal religion = No more public praying or church stuff. If that is all that is making Christians donate, then they are barking morons. I can't be kind about that. It's as if they think that God can't see them when they don't announce it loudly. For Christ's sakes, if they stopped donating once they weren't out in the public, then I would hardly consider them good o.O And that's by an atheist's standards; if they can't make it in a heathen's book, how the hell will God treat them? He's like Santa, right? He knows when you are sleeping, he knows when you're awake, he knows if you've been bad or good so be good for goodness sake, no? Does this not apply when a group of people are around you?

Furthermore, I don't seem to remember God saying donate. Hell, God said 'get rid of all of your wordly possessions, for they do not matter', yet it seems as though 90% of Christians live in houses with a whole bunch of stuff. Why must people nitpick and make God in their image? Just how much of the Bible is inerrant and worthy of being read? Shall I stone some non-virgin women? Bash babies into the ground? Or should I kill those that light fires on Sunday?

Plenty of people in this thread have said abolish/make religion illegal. That's what I'm saying to you...I wouldn't care if the Vatican and other huge churches were taxed...Selling indulgences and other corrupt practices were the reason Lutheranism began in the first place. I'm a member of a monetarily struggling church and thinking that people say we ought to be taxed is just nuts to me.

....-.- I give up. Several people have said that littler churches SHOULDN'T be taxed, MYSELF included...it's the BIG ones. So...I don't know why you are still arguing this point o.O Yes, we get it, your wee little church is dying and really does need the cash. We're saying don't tax it, and you're glaring back and saying don't tax it...I'm confused.

[Hawk]

That's strange that you say that considering humans are not actually capable of ever understanding God and so how can you ever say 'that's what God wants us to do'. By definition that's contradiction right there.

Personally I think that churches should get donations to cover necessary expenses, IF there is excess, then it should go into helping the people in the church who are suffering bad times, etc. I don't see that there is necessarily a need to tax the churches unless they're making huge profits and not giving any of it back to the people.l

There are PLENTY of Bible verses related to giving 10% of what you make to God, or to give to the needy. Since the Bible is the Word of God, God wants us to donate to the needy and give to the Church.

[Cript]

I don't think Churches should get any money at all.
Let's see how long they survive on the will of God alone.

Make religion illegal. It creates too much tension and tends to hold society back from advancing.

Why should they be exempt from taxation?

What happened to separation of church and state?

Are we still under rule of the Feudal System?

TAX THE barkERS.
*amen

Which does not make them just or holy people. At all. If they literally need the threat of punishment in order to donate, then they sure as hell aren't kind; they're cowardly. They're afraid of going to hell, so they dish out five bucks for people that they really don't care about. That...does not justify it. This, yet again, makes me scratch my head and wonder:

Illegal religion = No more public praying or church stuff. If that is all that is making Christians donate, then they are barking morons. I can't be kind about that. It's as if they think that God can't see them when they don't announce it loudly. For Christ's sakes, if they stopped donating once they weren't out in the public, then I would hardly consider them good o.O And that's by an atheist's standards; if they can't make it in a heathen's book, how the hell will God treat them? He's like Santa, right? He knows when you are sleeping, he knows when you're awake, he knows if you've been bad or good so be good for goodness sake, no? Does this not apply when a group of people are around you?

Furthermore, I don't seem to remember God saying donate. Hell, God said 'get rid of all of your wordly possessions, for they do not matter', yet it seems as though 90% of Christians live in houses with a whole bunch of stuff. Why must people nitpick and make God in their image? Just how much of the Bible is inerrant and worthy of being read? Shall I stone some non-virgin women? Bash babies into the ground? Or should I kill those that light fires on Sunday?
....-.- I give up. Several people have said that littler churches SHOULDN'T be taxed, MYSELF included...it's the BIG ones. So...I don't know why you are still arguing this point o.O Yes, we get it, your wee little church is dying and really does need the cash. We're saying don't tax it, and you're glaring back and saying don't tax it...I'm confused.

I'm not arguing with you...I'm arguing with the people above you. Quote me the verses about lighting fires on Sunday, stoning non-virgin women and bashing babies and I'd be happy to elaborate on them for you...otherwise, quit partonizing my religion.

[Akira]

I patronize that which patronizes me o.O Short of death threats, Christians have pretty much done as much to me as they could without literally beating me. Your religion may make you very happy inside, but it does not do that for me, and because of that, I apparently need to be annoyed constantly -.- It's not a personal beef; just a widespread one.

"The people of Samaria must bear the consequences of their guilt because they rebelled against their God. They will be killed by an invading army, their little ones dashed to death against the ground, their pregnant women ripped open by swords." (Hosea 13:16 NLT)

"Happy those who seize your children and smash them against a rock." Psalms 137:9 NAB

22.20 But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel, (unmarried women)
22.21 then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father’s house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die, because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the whore in her father’s house; so shalt thou put evil away from among you.

On six days work may be done, but the seventh day shall be sacred to you as the Sabbath of complete rest to the Lord. Anyone who does work on that day, shall be put to death. You shall not even light a fire in any of your dwellings on the Sabbath day. (Exodus 35:2-3 NAB)

I would love to see the explanation for these o.O If not taken literally, why oh why is ANYTHING taken literally in the Bible? It cannot be nitpicked, after all. Many Christians believe the Earth to have been made in 7 days, but show them this, and they change the wording to suit their tastes.

[Tetiel]

Akira obviously you don't know what the steps of AA are. Don't use an example if you don't know what it is. AA is religious - very religious.

[Akira]

The point is that AA does not beg for money.

Trust me, I'm aware that AA is not exactly shits and giggles. I could also argue that cooking is very, very religious. But I won't, because it is merely a term. I do not worship a Chef God just because I work in a kitchen. Similarly, AA is not like Christianity just because it is 'religious'.

Clearly, because I grabbed something from the AA website and pasted it, I am automatically completely in the dark about AA, an utter moron, and lack any rational or reasonable reason to even be able to type, since I am nothing more than a ridiculously stupid primate banging on the keyboard. -.- Look, just because I don't sit here and study AA meetings every single day of my life does not mean that I am completely 100% in the dark about it. Once you can find me an example (photographic proof, if possible) of an AA meeting where they passed around a platter and asked for money, or if they held an AA bake sale, or if they stood on street corners and grabbed random people, regardless of their drinking habits, and told them to join unless they wanted to be drunkards forever.

Of course, that may be a little extreme...but then again, I'm not here to argue the religiosity of AA meetings, now am I?

EDIT: And again, I did not study AA meetings for any extended period of time. I came to this discussion because of my several years of studying religions of all sorts. If a discussion pops up about AA meetings, I'll gladly skip over it because I do not know it well enough. However, I know enough about it to be able to paste something from their site, and I have relatives who went to it, and I have heard of them before >.> Christ, I came from a redneck backwater town; all they did was drink, smoke pot, and worship Jesus (with the occasional KKK rally).

That wasn't the 'steps', either. I've seen the steps before. Blah, blah, blah....I know the drill. Do you want me to post the steps as well?

EDIT Again: I know what you are implying; that since you need to accept God, AA is like Jesus. Of course, the steps go through it painstakingly to add that it is as you see him...so, I could go in and see a giant purple bird with yellow suction cups for feet and believe that IT is my God. THAT is a BIG difference between Christianity and AA: Christianity wants JESUS and ONLY JESUS. NEVER, EVER is a Christian allowed to change God to be what they are most comfortable. If that were the case, then church would be a hell of a lot more fun.

Edited by Akira, 24 September 2007 - 06:39 PM.

[Hawk]

I patronize that which patronizes me o.O Short of death threats, Christians have pretty much done as much to me as they could without literally beating me. Your religion may make you very happy inside, but it does not do that for me, and because of that, I apparently need to be annoyed constantly -.- It's not a personal beef; just a widespread one.

How about you quit being an ass? All you have done is criticize our Churches by making false assumptions. Your the stereotypical atheist who hates everything about Organized religions have done or will do.

You couldn't spot a ten one week, so oops, you're damned.

You have no idea how much B.S. that is. Going to hell over not donating? I believe some guy named Jesus is there for you.

Any church, regardless of status, that tries to change a law or act within the state as power (such as this bull about gay marriage being bad, and stem cell research killing the 'souls' of barking skin cells), they should get closed down immediately. I know that everyone really wants to pray loudly together, chant monotonously, piss off their bored kids, and publicly announce their faith, but as soon as they start trying to infringe on everyone else's rights, shut 'em down.

And anyone who is anti-abortion should be shot? Sure, good idea Churches and churchgoers are not the only people with such views. Some take their religion too far, but who gives you the right to stop them? Go check into the First Amendment. By shutting them down for trying to infringe on everyone else's rights you are violating the 1st Amendment. Yeah, go you!

I think that they should be allowed to preach it only on church premises; no more of this standing on the streets to convert people.

You're right, trying to reach out to the community is a terrible thing. We DEFINITELY shouldn't be allowed in public facilities, being Christian and all.

Furthermore, I don't seem to remember God saying donate. Hell, God said 'get rid of all of your wordly possessions, for they do not matter', yet it seems as though 90% of Christians live in houses with a whole bunch of stuff. Why must people nitpick and make God in their image? Just how much of the Bible is inerrant and worthy of being read? Shall I stone some non-virgin women? Bash babies into the ground? Or should I kill those that light fires on Sunday?

How well, on a scale of 1-10, do you understand the Bible. Lets start with the basics. There are 39 books in the OLD TESTAMENT, and 27 in the NEW TESTAMENT. What you refer to is normally found in the OLD TESTAMENT, where things were much different. You know- it was slightly before Christ died for all of our sins. Yeah, minor event in history.

I'll gladly skip over it because I do not know it well enough

You don't know this well enough. Churches ask for money to survive. The Church I go to is barely scraping by, being taxed would basically put an end to our congregation. We have 300 members, tops, and we are normally over budget by a bit. There are some larger churches where they don't need the money, but they WILL put it to good use.

[Akira]

How about you quit being an ass? All you have done is criticize our Churches by making false assumptions. Your the stereotypical atheist who hates everything about Organized religions have done or will do. You have no idea how much B.S. that is. Going to hell over not donating? I believe some guy named Jesus is there for you.

Excuse me? You assume that my assumptions are false, simply because you are using your own church as an example. I'm using local churches, as well as the nosiest and noisiest Christians that constantly show up on TV with influence in politics for my examples. Of course, this makes me an ass...but I care very little ^-^ I've been called worse.

And yes, several churches in my area state that only sinners refuse to donate, and that sinners go to hell.

Jesus may be there for YOU, but I tried for about a year to hear him and he kept his mouth shut. Pissed me off, since every other Christian claimed to be hearing God and Jesus loud and clear, when no amount of begging on my behalf and silent pleading could possibly get either of them to speak to me, metaphorically or otherwise.

And anyone who is anti-abortion should be shot? Sure, good idea Churches and churchgoers are not the only people with such views. Some take their religion too far, but who gives you the right to stop them? Go check into the First Amendment. By shutting them down for trying to infringe on everyone else's rights you are violating the 1st Amendment. Yeah, go you!

So...they should infringe on my rights, but as soon as I try to push them back, I'm infringing on THEIR rights? So, essentially, I might as well move to Canada if I ever want to get married >.> Or Spain. Apparently, it's okay for extremist Christians in the government to infringe on my rights, but damn if a friggin' gay atheist even TRIES to have a right o.O

You're right, trying to reach out to the community is a terrible thing. We DEFINITELY shouldn't be allowed in public facilities, being Christian and all.

There's a limit, oh sarcastic one. Christians can be all happy and helpful, but when they are on the street harrassing other people to convert, they need to shut up. Do you really think that a Muslim could pull that off in any small Christian towns? Or an atheist? I'm certain that it would not go over well. Or, maybe it's just Christians that try to do that.

How well, on a scale of 1-10, do you understand the Bible. Lets start with the basics. There are 39 books in the OLD TESTAMENT, and 27 in the NEW TESTAMENT. What you refer to is normally found in the OLD TESTAMENT, where things were much different. You know- it was slightly before Christ died for all of our sins. Yeah, minor event in history.

Minor biblical event. Not historical, in any shape or form. Yes, there was a dude named Jesus. Until there is some real damn proof that he died for our sins (a load of bull, in my opinion that you loathe) I won't believe it. The NT is the Christians way of leeching off of the OT so that they could be saved along with the Jews. Jesus is not accepted as the messiah by the Jewish people; something which I find funny, since the entire assumption about Jesus being the messiah originated from the OT, according to the NT. So, the Jews are wrong about their own book? And, by the way, if Jesus died for our sins, it seems a little base that God would wait that long to do it. Thousands of people who lived in the Americas never even KNEW about Christianity until it came to kill them; so did they just go straight to hell because God didn't bother to give them the right info? Furthermore, people lived before Jesus in those places, meaning that they were TOTALLY screwed.

You know, I'll say 7, because I sure as hell can't quote it from the top of my head, and somehow Christians always find a problem with everything that I say, even if it came from their book.

By the way, if you aren't accepting the OT as quotable, then rip it out of your bible. No sense in listening to anything in there if you leave it off limits to atheists. Oh wait, Jesus said that EVERYTHING in the OT must be followed. So...do those not count in everything?

You don't know this well enough. Churches ask for money to survive. The Church I go to is barely scraping by, being taxed would basically put an end to our congregation. We have 300 members, tops, and we are normally over budget by a bit. There are some larger churches where they don't need the money, but they WILL put it to good use.

There you go again...yes I KNOW YOUR CHURCH IS STRUGGLING. Christ on a cracker! Chirst on himself o.O There are some larger churches that do NOT put their money to good use, and I have stated multiple times that only churches making a surplus should be taxed. If they aren't donating it all or using it all for ESSENTIALS (no, buying some golden decoartions does not count, nor does buying a new organ every year) then they should be taxed. Have I spelled it out enough?

-.- I don't want to go too deep into this publicly, since I have been arguing this with two people for nearly four months now. If you want to continue the Bible discussion, message me. Otherwise, I'm done with the churches being taxed stuff. I said my piece; this is just the crap that trails after it o.O

[Tetiel]

And YOU are using your own churches as an example. Pot. Kettle. Black. I am sick of your insults - yes - insults. You relate churches to KKK, you use insults when arguing with people who are obviously Christians, you should KNOW you're insulting and you still do it. Why? Why do you feel the need to bash things that people respect and believe just because you do not respect them? It's rude. It's insulting. You kno-

...screw it. Just screw it. I'm going to get very angry and I'll calm down.

Simply said. If you do not wish to respect others beliefs and insist on being insulting to many many people and stereotyping churches and people's religion... please, please don't debate here.

[Ives]

Blatant, kitsune. Before he corrects you.

Look, I dislike organized religion, but I think if you're a non-for-profit organization trying to make ends meet (which is what most churches are), then taxing you would be a pointless thing. You'd end up making a lot of churches go bankrupt in the process. Regardless of their religious affiliation they have rights. If the top dogs are making 500,000 dollars a year, thats not for profit. If its your local methodist church, it shouldn't serve as a problem.

Mind, I'm beyond Atheist, but I do recognize my whole ideas, those of classical liberalism, are derivative of deeply religious men who had a strong relationship with their God that formed their beliefs.

Make religion illegal. It creates too much tension and tends to hold society back from advancing.

That's one of the stupidest things I've ever read. Seriously. Making the practice of following nutty ideas is completely backhanded, and the idea that you're going to enforce it is even dumber. Though it would probably lead to an agorist revolution which isn't nessecarily bad.

Edited by Athean, 26 September 2007 - 07:18 PM.