13 replies to this topic

[emme80]

thats bogus. the 90's was the steriod era. mark mcgwire did basically the same shit yet no one seems to care bout him as much as bonds... AND his trainer that been in jail eversince the case started was just released. he must of snitched.

[Kyle]

Just so everyone is aware of exactly what happened:
Bonds was indicted for lying in grand-jury testimony about his steroid use. The prosecution has at least 2 steroid tests that Bonds failed, as well as evidence from the Mitchell report due out after the new year. The Mitchell report named 12 of the current free agents, one of which is likely Bonds. The logs from the recently raided labs in LA also likely name Bonds as a client.

My opinion? Finally. If you seriously think that Bonds hasn't used any steroids, you are ignorant. Nobody grows like that, and nobody's HEAD grows like his has since he came into the league. Bonds' record should have an *, no doubt.

[Krnsaber]

Who's arguing that Bonds didn;t use steroids? That's just ignorant

[emme80]

Just so everyone is aware of exactly what happened:
Bonds was indicted for lying in grand-jury testimony about his steroid use. The prosecution has at least 2 steroid tests that Bonds failed, as well as evidence from the Mitchell report due out after the new year. The Mitchell report named 12 of the current free agents, one of which is likely Bonds. The logs from the recently raided labs in LA also likely name Bonds as a client.

My opinion? Finally. If you seriously think that Bonds hasn't used any steroids, you are ignorant. Nobody grows like that, and nobody's HEAD grows like his has since he came into the league. Bonds' record should have an *, no doubt.

Oh i totally agree. but do you not realize how much more coverage bond is recieving when others like mcgwire, sosa, the guy from the yankees (forgot his name but they basically forgiven him) have barely recieved any? They are trying to put him in jail for 30 years! Mcgwire basically plead the 5th in court horribly, sosa pretended he didn't speak english horribly. it's crazy. all the money spent in court, 4 years of work to finally get one man. it's like they are placing the whole steroid era on his shoulders when it was obvisouly the owner who turned a blind eye to it because the homeruns were filling the seats. baseball was near death before that run mcgwire and sosa made back when mcgwire broke the single season record. and i can't help but to come to the conclusion that some of this is racist. I hate baseball because of this.

Edited by emme80, 15 November 2007 - 04:36 PM.

[Kyle]

thats bogus. the 90's was the steriod era. mark mcgwire did basically the same shit yet no one seems to care bout him as much as bonds... AND his trainer that been in jail eversince the case started was just released. he must of snitched.

Who's arguing that Bonds didn;t use steroids? That's just ignorant

I kind of took Emme's first post as arguing against it, but now I see thats not really the case. On the subject of racism, I think that Mcgwire was given a huge pass, although most/all of this usage WAS done before MLB banned the use of performance enhancing drugs. Same thing with Sosa. I will be the first one to admit I was and still am a Sosa fan. He was definitely my favorite player when I was younger, and I was glad to see him get big playing time this year. I think that in Sosa's case, you can play the "I wouldn't have made it otherwise" card. Same thing with Jason Grimsley. Ive been a huge Grimsley fan since he was with Kansas City. I don't fault him for steroid use because he probably wouldn't have made it to the majors without them. Baseball is their job, and they have to be able to support their families. I think they are all wrong for juicing, but Bonds would have been a Hall of Fame player even without steroids, while Sosa, Grimsley, and possibly Mcgwire wouldn't have been great players, or possible not even made it to the majors. I also think that since Sosa, Mcgwire, and Grimsley all used steroids before they were banned, its in the same category as doctoring a ball or bat. Its against the rules, but nobody really faults a player for it, because its just part of the game.

[pyke]

Oh i totally agree. but do you not realize how much more coverage bond is recieving when others like mcgwire, sosa, the guy from the yankees (forgot his name but they basically forgiven him) have barely recieved any? They are trying to put him in jail for 30 years! Mcgwire basically plead the 5th in court horribly, sosa pretended he didn't speak english horribly. it's crazy. all the money spent in court, 4 years of work to finally get one man. it's like they are placing the whole steroid era on his shoulders when it was obvisouly the owner who turned a blind eye to it because the homeruns were filling the seats. baseball was near death before that run mcgwire and sosa made back when mcgwire broke the single season record. and i can't help but to come to the conclusion that some of this is racist. I hate baseball because of this.

If it was racism, they would have nailed Sosa.

McGuire was always a monstrosity, it wasn't like Bonds who went from a good player to some unstoppable machine over the course of a season. Not to mention that when you essentially cheat to shatter two records, you're going to be put in the spotlight.

[Black Flame]

Well I'm not too surprised to be honest. I mean I don't hate the guy, but it was blatantly obvious that he used steroids. It was just a matter of time before he was indicted.

[Ives]

The fact steroids are illegal is stupid. People have the right to do what they want to if they arent harming others, and I can assure you steroids can do more good than harm in the case of many healthy adult males. Theres no such thing as roid rage, so give it up.

Steroids in baseball? I don't like it, but I can see why people may use roids in baseball. Whatever the case, steroids should be entirely legal.

[Mystical]

The fact steroids are illegal is stupid. People have the right to do what they want to if they arent harming others, and I can assure you steroids can do more good than harm in the case of many healthy adult males. Theres no such thing as roid rage, so give it up.

Steroids in baseball? I don't like it, but I can see why people may use roids in baseball. Whatever the case, steroids should be entirely legal.

well its a known fact that people that have used steroids are more violent. I think that would be mean that they are more likely to harm other people.

[Teddy]

The fact steroids are illegal is stupid. People have the right to do what they want to if they arent harming others, and I can assure you steroids can do more good than harm in the case of many healthy adult males. Theres no such thing as roid rage, so give it up.

Steroids in baseball? I don't like it, but I can see why people may use roids in baseball. Whatever the case, steroids should be entirely legal.

But aren't steroids additional testosterone, some sort like that? Will that not, biologically, cause more male-ish behavior such as aggressiveness?

[Ives]

well its a known fact that people that have used steroids are more violent. I think that would be mean that they are more likely to harm other people.

It's thought to be a well known fact, so I can understand what you're coming from, but it's complete bull. It's an excuse for an asshole to become more of an asshole. While it can change behavior, if you look at healthy adult males who use steroids to look better and feel better that didn't just "Start out" on their first cycle, they're usually even more calm and collected than someone who doesn't use steroids. If anything, it does better for them by making them feel better, look better, etcetera.

This is not to say that kids should go use steroids or that Barry Bonds should use steroids (he has claimed in the past to have taken them without knowing anyways, so the idea that hes never taken them is horribly dumb), or that even healthy adult males should use steroids. I'm saying it's their business if they wish to and their are known benefits.

Here's probably the most honest answer I could find about roid rage, by the way:

'Roid Rage: Myth or Reality?

Q: I recently saw a study showing that supraphysiological doses of Testosterone didn't lead to angry outbursts or so-called "roid rage." However, I know bodybuilders who swear they feel more aggressive and short tempered when "on." What's the real scoop?

A: A clear and direct establishment between Testosterone levels and aggression (in humans) has yet to be conclusively demonstrated. However, if you ask most people and even many psychologists and endocrinologists who haven’t done any direct research on the subject, they’ll likely tell you that Testosterone is responsible for aggressive behavior in humans.

Now, what I’m not going to do is deny that androgens more than likely do indirectly affect behavior whether it be via monoamine metabolism or some other pathway. On the other hand, I definitely think that psychological and genetic predispositions play a much larger role. In other words, if you’re not prone to such behavior in the first place, administering exogenous Testosterone isn’t going to lead to some psychotic episode.

So what's causing some of these people using androgens other than Testosterone to experience these "episodes?" Again, I’d say it’s the same situation, with perhaps pharmacological factors playing a slightly larger role than with Test. So, this goes back to psychological factors. Just as a simple test, survey 10 or 20 people at random and ask them what they associate Testosterone with. I can promise you nearly everyone will mention "aggression" or some synonym thereof as one of their first comments. Even your grandma has heard of "'roid rage." It’s no surprise that Hollywood has also allowed this thinking to permeate various films such as The Program and many others.

What's my point? If someone truly believes that some sort of compound is going to increase aggressive behavior, then in many cases they're going to become more aggressive. I’ve met fitness models and bodybuilders who’ve appeared in various magazines, athletes (NCAA and NFL) as well as everyday people, and I’ve yet to come across one single incident where the person had an episode of 'roid rage. In fact, they’re some of the most laid back people you’ll ever meet. And these are people that aren't, by any means, using small amounts of androgens.

On the other hand, I’ve met literally two people in my life who supposedly had such an episode. Want to know what they had in common? Both knew nothing about weight training, nutrition or androgens. Both had actually only lifted for four months. Both relayed to me that they had used Winstrol (stanozolol) and that one punched holes in his wall and the other threatened his girlfriend with a fork. Also, these guys were 18 when this happened and were relaying this story to me several years later.

I asked both if they were aware of "roid rage" prior to using the stanozolol and both were very familiar with it. Now, for those of you who don’t know, stanozolol isn't something known for any type of behavioral affect, but these guys didn’t know that. They simply behaved the way they thought they were supposed to behave when on steroids. In most cases (but certainly not all) it’s a placebo effect slightly reinforced with a small and indirect effect upon behavior via the androgen at hand.

I’ve always known that the placebo effect could play a large role, but it wasn’t until a psychologist friend of mine shared some of her findings with me that I realized the full extent. In short, she'd shown that in experiments (blinded and placebo controlled) where mood or cognition are measured, people are always going to try and guess which group they were in. She essentially gave two placebos to two groups of subjects and measured cognitive function.

What was found? A group emerged that demonstrated that the inert compound used produced a statistically significant effect upon cognition. Why? Well, the subjects were informed prior to the study that one group would be taking a compound which could potentially increase cognitive function.

This demonstrates just how powerful suggestion and the placebo effect can be, especially when it comes to mood and cognition more so than something that can be looked at physically, although that too is susceptible in many cases.

Finally, it’s important to note that those with Testosterone levels below the normal range are actually more prone to mood disorders/depression. My final answer is that yes, certain anabolic steroids may contribute to a slight behavioral change, but is it enough to send a normal human into a state of rage? No. Can it be enough to affect someone who’s already mentally ill or highly predisposed to such behavior? Yes. (4-9)

Edited by Athean, 16 November 2007 - 09:59 AM.

[Chew]

I say throw the bum in jail and take away his HR totals !!!

[Lawivido]

Took long enough. They needed to make an example out of SOMEBODY.

[Fatal]

man one of our coaches is probably crying He's the biggest bonds fan ever..............