46 replies to this topic

[pyke]

Stop spouting shit. He wants to end it as quickly as possible, but you can't just run away from it, it's like running over a child, ringing the ambulance and then leaving before it turns up.

You don't actually think the Americans stay in Iraq for Iraq's sake do you? At any rate, I don't see the US pulling out of Iraq, even if Obama is elected.

Also, false. As well, while I don't think the issue with Palin's daughter is of any significance, it's the kind of thing republicans would definitely hit on, probably even worse then the democrats have tried.

[redlion]

Without getting into some kind of inmature back and forth, I think it's important that people recognize that there is a healthy population of republicans, like myself, who support McCain because he supports republican viewpoints on many of the issues. In fact, he's quite moderate on several points, particularly immigration, which of course comes from his tenure in Arizona. I think that he would be perfectly qualified for the job. I also think Obama is qualified, however, he does not support viewpoints which I personally agree with. I think it is also important to recognize that one president simply cannot change the entire direction of a country. The writers of the Constitution imagined a legislative nation, not one run by the executive. However, once you take a few poltiics classes in college, you'll see that because of our innate need to have a figurehead leader who we can look to, and blame, the country has shifted toward facoring the executive as "in charge" of the country. Of course, this subtle shift in the American mentality has not been followed by a change in the way the actually governing of the country works. The president has much less power than most people think he (or maybe someday she) does

I hope you're kidding. If you paid any attention to the work being done in the past 20 years of presidency, you'd have a different opinion entirely on the executive branch.

Take one example. Dick Cheney in his role as vice president has sealed all records leaving his office as Classified. Essentially, there is no check on the actions of his office, because the only people who can actually read what he is doing are his subordinates.

For another example, you could look to the Reagan administration. During the Iran-Contra affair, no legislative or judicial power was involved in the sale of American Weapons to Iran, or funding for Contra, yet all of this occurred. This is neither an explicit, nor an implicit power of the executive. This is an expansion of presidential powers.

Further, how do you think we were duped into a war in Iraq? The only governing body that can declare war is congress. So president bush, backed by a republican congress, declared war on Iraq in the search for WMDs that didn't exist. It was nothing short of Manchurian.

For more information on the expansion of the executive, check out This Video by Bill Moyers.

There is no denying the power of the Presidency.

[Frizzle]

You don't actually think the Americans stay in Iraq for Iraq's sake do you? At any rate, I don't see the US pulling out of Iraq, even if Obama is elected.

To be fair I don't think it's as black and white as that. I do believe that the majority of people involved in the Iraq would like to see an end to it, but don't quote me on that.

I hope you're kidding. If you paid any attention to the work being done in the past 20 years of presidency, you'd have a different opinion entirely on the executive branch.

There is no denying the power of the Presidency.

I think he was just talking about the Presidents official powers like releasing the budget, pardoning etc.., but also adding in checks and balances etc..

[Alex]

Personally I think we're fucked either way

Should have voted for Ron Paul

me



You know, I think its awesome that she is chosen for VP, cause its actually a real person with REAL issues. Maybe she can help the country get better education about birth control, have her daughter speak to high schools. I'm all for it. I think its great. She can actually understand the troubles that a lot of Americans deal with.

Doesn't she oppose sex education, abortion, and the use of birth controls?

They're both douche bags in my opinion. And McCain is still wants to continue the war, who in their right mind would vote for him?

Half of America bro.
When shit starts going downhill rapidly, dual citizenship ftw.

[redlion]

I think he was just talking about the Presidents official powers like releasing the budget, pardoning etc.., but also adding in checks and balances etc..

If he/she was talking about the constitutionally mandated powers of the president, then its true: the president doesn't have much power. But the expansion of executive powers (policy from the chair instead of Congress) is increasingly becoming commonplace with each new president. Well, since Reagan anyway. Jimmy Carter didn't really do shit for the executive. He probably weakened it actually.

[B@nGoUt2]

I think Obama is goint to make a great president because he gots his mind focused on one picture, but thats only one mans opinion. I also think that MCCain is going to turn out like another BUSH and i know we all that want that ever since he has been up america been on other shyt.

[Frizzle]

If he/she was talking about the constitutionally mandated powers of the president, then its true: the president doesn't have much power. But the expansion of executive powers (policy from the chair instead of Congress) is increasingly becoming commonplace with each new president. Well, since Reagan anyway. Jimmy Carter didn't really do shit for the executive. He probably weakened it actually.

True'say,

[Alex]

What does Obama actually stand for? He can't even make up his own mind. At least with McCain you get a straight answer.

Yea ok I totally see your point man!

Edited by Alex, 05 September 2008 - 10:51 PM.

[Frizzle]

Alex, have you ever heard the phrase "grasping at straws"?

Funny how many Americans fall for propoganda in this day and age.

[Grizzly]

I'm sure that is the case sometimes, but it can also be that her career is taking control of her life and she hasn't been able to juggle both raising children and also being a runnign mate

Her daughter is five months along...her being pregnant doesn't have anything to do with her mom being the VP nom.

And I completely agree, sometimes the best parents in the world have a mess up kid. And she is taking resposibility for her actions; she didn't off for some hush-hush abortion or anything terrible like that.

Right, but before she was chosen to be Mccain's running mate she worked several years as the governor as Alaska and the several other political positions she held which obviously took a toll on her family. Really, you don't think that her parenting is responsible for any of this at all? A few Mexican ladies can't raise her child for her neither can her drunk husband.

From an unbiased standpoint, I seriously do not understand why 50% of the country likes McCain. I imagine religion and dogma and xenophobia and simple mindedness, bitterness and the worst of all - blind loyalty, all have to do with it.

At least Obama has something going for him, I seriously don't understand what McCain has going for him.

What does Obama actually stand for? He can't even make up his own mind. At least with McCain you get a straight answer.

Well I do have doubts that a mother that can't properly raise a daughter can help govern a country. A big part of her markting is appealing to mothers who can relate to her, but good job fucking that one up lol. Apparently McCain has doubts too since he's running a further background check on her with the recent dirt that's come up on her and her family.

It really intrigues me that Obama has a diverse political, cultural, and educational background.. I'm really interested to see what he can do for the country and if any of the two are to commit change, I think it's Obama.

Name one President or Vice President that doesn't have kids. Obama has two kids himself, so that's them in the same category. Also, tell me how diverse Obama is in politics? He lacks experience which Palin doesn't. And to be fair, I'm not sure being multi-cultural is the best for a leader.

They're both douche bags in my opinion. And McCain is still wants to continue the war, who in their right mind would vote for him?

Stop spouting shit. He wants to end it as quickly as possible, but you can't just run away from it, it's like running over a child, ringing the ambulance and then leaving before it turns up.

Wtf? I don't have anything against her having children.. it's just that her daughter got knocked up at 17. Most president's children go off to Harvard, Yale, or Princeton and become politicians, governors, lawyers, and all that good shit, but her daughter is going to be a mom at 17.

And if you read a newspaper you would understand his diverse political background. He "lacks experience" in terms of being in the senate for only one year. But, he's served as a civil rights attorney after graduating from Harvard Law and served on the Illinois senate before he was elected to the Senate. And in his first year on senate he's actually made an impact.

[Alex]

Alex, have you ever heard the phrase "grasping at straws"?

Funny how many Americans fall for propoganda in this day and age.

LOL
McCain constantly contradicting himself is grasping at straws?

I'm not for Obama nor McCain, you're the one under the bias effect here buddy.

[Grizzly]

And McCain is still wants to continue the war, who in their right mind would vote for him?

me

I'm sure that is the case sometimes, but it can also be that her career is taking control of her life and she hasn't been able to juggle both raising children and also being a runnign mate. It's also one thing for your kid to be a little wreckless and another to get pregnant at 17, you know? You start wondering if there was any sort of discipline or parenting in her life.

You know, I think its awesome that she is chosen for VP, cause its actually a real person with REAL issues. Maybe she can help the country get better education about birth control, have her daughter speak to high schools. I'm all for it. I think its great. She can actually understand the troubles that a lot of Americans deal with.

Yea, you've got the right idea going on.. Have the mother who can't teach her daughter about preventing pregnancy to teach America how to do it.

It really scares me that 18 is the legal voting age.. this thread just made it painfully obvious that many of us need a few extra years before we can make an educated vote.

[hungryhippo]

I was speaking about the given powers of the president. And I am female.

[Ives]

Still, Obama is definantly the better out of the 2.

But that misses the entire point. Who cares if he's the better one of the two if he still remains part of evil? There's no reason to vote for him or McCain. Vote for a third party member instead, and follow your god damn convictions, not who you think will win or who you think is the better of two evils.

[Frizzle]

I'm sure that is the case sometimes, but it can also be that her career is taking control of her life and she hasn't been able to juggle both raising children and also being a runnign mate

Her daughter is five months along...her being pregnant doesn't have anything to do with her mom being the VP nom.

And I completely agree, sometimes the best parents in the world have a mess up kid. And she is taking resposibility for her actions; she didn't off for some hush-hush abortion or anything terrible like that.

Right, but before she was chosen to be Mccain's running mate she worked several years as the governor as Alaska and the several other political positions she held which obviously took a toll on her family. Really, you don't think that her parenting is responsible for any of this at all? A few Mexican ladies can't raise her child for her neither can her drunk husband.

From an unbiased standpoint, I seriously do not understand why 50% of the country likes McCain. I imagine religion and dogma and xenophobia and simple mindedness, bitterness and the worst of all - blind loyalty, all have to do with it.

At least Obama has something going for him, I seriously don't understand what McCain has going for him.

What does Obama actually stand for? He can't even make up his own mind. At least with McCain you get a straight answer.

Well I do have doubts that a mother that can't properly raise a daughter can help govern a country. A big part of her markting is appealing to mothers who can relate to her, but good job fucking that one up lol. Apparently McCain has doubts too since he's running a further background check on her with the recent dirt that's come up on her and her family.

It really intrigues me that Obama has a diverse political, cultural, and educational background.. I'm really interested to see what he can do for the country and if any of the two are to commit change, I think it's Obama.

Name one President or Vice President that doesn't have kids. Obama has two kids himself, so that's them in the same category. Also, tell me how diverse Obama is in politics? He lacks experience which Palin doesn't. And to be fair, I'm not sure being multi-cultural is the best for a leader.

They're both douche bags in my opinion. And McCain is still wants to continue the war, who in their right mind would vote for him?

Stop spouting shit. He wants to end it as quickly as possible, but you can't just run away from it, it's like running over a child, ringing the ambulance and then leaving before it turns up.

Wtf? I don't have anything against her having children.. it's just that her daughter got knocked up at 17. Most president's children go off to Harvard, Yale, or Princeton and become politicians, governors, lawyers, and all that good shit, but her daughter is going to be a mom at 17.

And if you read a newspaper you would understand his diverse political background. He "lacks experience" in terms of being in the senate for only one year. But, he's served as a civil rights attorney after graduating from Harvard Law and served on the Illinois senate before he was elected to the Senate. And in his first year on senate he's actually made an impact.

And yet Palin and McCain combined have more influence and worth in politics. Being a lawyer doesn't equal experience in politics, it equals experience in LAW. While I do admit it will serve some use to him, that and a college/uni degree does not make him fit to rule a country of over 320 million people.

And maybe I can't just read a newspaper, I have to do my homework and make the (litle) effort of finding out candidates opinions, morales and policies because I take an interest in this, unlike most of you slothly Americans who eat up media propoganda like it's your last Big Mac Meal.

And what does her daughter being pregnant have anything to do with political impetus? You could claim she can't even look after her children, but that'd be a typical low blow and we all know of course that people make mistakes and that her child is not a direct representitive of Palin's politcal character. But it does show that she has obvious strong morales and sticks to them, like it or not.

Alex, have you ever heard the phrase "grasping at straws"?

Funny how many Americans fall for propoganda in this day and age.

LOL
McCain constantly contradicting himself is grasping at straws?

I'm not for Obama nor McCain, you're the one under the bias effect here buddy.

How long has this election being running so far? A good few months, almost the big day. Politicans constantly talk very vaguely and very indecisively and so will mix up their words, but that video did not show McCain really truely contradicting himself, more like laughing at his linguistics. Unlike Obama who gets mixed up on big issues like economical, social and enviromental policies, unlike some armoured car in Iraq.

And I'm not for either, seeing as I'm not American, so how can I be biased?

And McCain is still wants to continue the war, who in their right mind would vote for him?

me

I'm sure that is the case sometimes, but it can also be that her career is taking control of her life and she hasn't been able to juggle both raising children and also being a runnign mate. It's also one thing for your kid to be a little wreckless and another to get pregnant at 17, you know? You start wondering if there was any sort of discipline or parenting in her life.

You know, I think its awesome that she is chosen for VP, cause its actually a real person with REAL issues. Maybe she can help the country get better education about birth control, have her daughter speak to high schools. I'm all for it. I think its great. She can actually understand the troubles that a lot of Americans deal with.

Yea, you've got the right idea going on.. Have the mother who can't teach her daughter about preventing pregnancy to teach America how to do it.

It really scares me that 18 is the legal voting age.. this thread just made it painfully obvious that many of us need a few extra years before we can make an educated vote.

Again with the parenting thing? Is that all you got? Is your family perfect, because I bet it isn't, yet I'm sure most people wouldn't hold that against you. Maybe you should get off your stool and muck in with the rest of us commoners aye?

Still, Obama is definantly the better out of the 2.

But that misses the entire point. Who cares if he's the better one of the two if he still remains part of evil? There's no reason to vote for him or McCain. Vote for a third party member instead, and follow your god damn convictions, not who you think will win or who you think is the better of two evils.

Alot of people would rather vote for the lesser of two evils to be on the safe and feel like they have done something instead of just using a wasted vote. The American political infrastructure is ridiciously unfair to third parties.

[Grizzly]

I'm sure that is the case sometimes, but it can also be that her career is taking control of her life and she hasn't been able to juggle both raising children and also being a runnign mate

Her daughter is five months along...her being pregnant doesn't have anything to do with her mom being the VP nom.

And I completely agree, sometimes the best parents in the world have a mess up kid. And she is taking resposibility for her actions; she didn't off for some hush-hush abortion or anything terrible like that.

Right, but before she was chosen to be Mccain's running mate she worked several years as the governor as Alaska and the several other political positions she held which obviously took a toll on her family. Really, you don't think that her parenting is responsible for any of this at all? A few Mexican ladies can't raise her child for her neither can her drunk husband.

From an unbiased standpoint, I seriously do not understand why 50% of the country likes McCain. I imagine religion and dogma and xenophobia and simple mindedness, bitterness and the worst of all - blind loyalty, all have to do with it.

At least Obama has something going for him, I seriously don't understand what McCain has going for him.

What does Obama actually stand for? He can't even make up his own mind. At least with McCain you get a straight answer.

Well I do have doubts that a mother that can't properly raise a daughter can help govern a country. A big part of her markting is appealing to mothers who can relate to her, but good job fucking that one up lol. Apparently McCain has doubts too since he's running a further background check on her with the recent dirt that's come up on her and her family.

It really intrigues me that Obama has a diverse political, cultural, and educational background.. I'm really interested to see what he can do for the country and if any of the two are to commit change, I think it's Obama.

Name one President or Vice President that doesn't have kids. Obama has two kids himself, so that's them in the same category. Also, tell me how diverse Obama is in politics? He lacks experience which Palin doesn't. And to be fair, I'm not sure being multi-cultural is the best for a leader.

They're both douche bags in my opinion. And McCain is still wants to continue the war, who in their right mind would vote for him?

Stop spouting shit. He wants to end it as quickly as possible, but you can't just run away from it, it's like running over a child, ringing the ambulance and then leaving before it turns up.

Wtf? I don't have anything against her having children.. it's just that her daughter got knocked up at 17. Most president's children go off to Harvard, Yale, or Princeton and become politicians, governors, lawyers, and all that good shit, but her daughter is going to be a mom at 17.

And if you read a newspaper you would understand his diverse political background. He "lacks experience" in terms of being in the senate for only one year. But, he's served as a civil rights attorney after graduating from Harvard Law and served on the Illinois senate before he was elected to the Senate. And in his first year on senate he's actually made an impact.

And yet Palin and McCain combined have more influence and worth in politics. Being a lawyer doesn't equal experience in politics, it equals experience in LAW. While I do admit it will serve some use to him, that and a college/uni degree does not make him fit to rule a country of over 320 million people.

And maybe I can't just read a newspaper, I have to do my homework and make the (litle) effort of finding out candidates opinions, morales and policies because I take an interest in this, unlike most of you slothly Americans who eat up media propoganda like it's your last Big Mac Meal.

And what does her daughter being pregnant have anything to do with political impetus? You could claim she can't even look after her children, but that'd be a typical low blow and we all know of course that people make mistakes and that her child is not a direct representitive of Palin's politcal character. But it does show that she has obvious strong morales and sticks to them, like it or not.

Alex, have you ever heard the phrase "grasping at straws"?

Funny how many Americans fall for propoganda in this day and age.

LOL
McCain constantly contradicting himself is grasping at straws?

I'm not for Obama nor McCain, you're the one under the bias effect here buddy.

How long has this election being running so far? A good few months, almost the big day. Politicans constantly talk very vaguely and very indecisively and so will mix up their words, but that video did not show McCain really truely contradicting himself, more like laughing at his linguistics. Unlike Obama who gets mixed up on big issues like economical, social and enviromental policies, unlike some armoured car in Iraq.

And I'm not for either, seeing as I'm not American, so how can I be biased?

And McCain is still wants to continue the war, who in their right mind would vote for him?

me

I'm sure that is the case sometimes, but it can also be that her career is taking control of her life and she hasn't been able to juggle both raising children and also being a runnign mate. It's also one thing for your kid to be a little wreckless and another to get pregnant at 17, you know? You start wondering if there was any sort of discipline or parenting in her life.

You know, I think its awesome that she is chosen for VP, cause its actually a real person with REAL issues. Maybe she can help the country get better education about birth control, have her daughter speak to high schools. I'm all for it. I think its great. She can actually understand the troubles that a lot of Americans deal with.

Yea, you've got the right idea going on.. Have the mother who can't teach her daughter about preventing pregnancy to teach America how to do it.

It really scares me that 18 is the legal voting age.. this thread just made it painfully obvious that many of us need a few extra years before we can make an educated vote.

Again with the parenting thing? Is that all you got? Is your family perfect, because I bet it isn't, yet I'm sure most people wouldn't hold that against you. Maybe you should get off your stool and muck in with the rest of us commoners aye?

Still, Obama is definantly the better out of the 2.

But that misses the entire point. Who cares if he's the better one of the two if he still remains part of evil? There's no reason to vote for him or McCain. Vote for a third party member instead, and follow your god damn convictions, not who you think will win or who you think is the better of two evils.

Alot of people would rather vote for the lesser of two evils to be on the safe and feel like they have done something instead of just using a wasted vote. The American political infrastructure is ridiciously unfair to third parties.

Obama has 4 years of experience in the Illinois Senate and a year on the Senate. His other experiences such as being a lawyer just makes him a better candidate. I truly believe that someone's background shape that person completely and will determine how good a leader he/she can be.

And what exactly are you implying? What makes you think I'm swallowing all the media's bullshit lol. I watch television maybe 5 hours a week and I read the nytimes everyday.

And I really don't care about Palin's daughter. Typically, what happens on the debate forums at neocodex is you say a whole paragraph of reasoning and some idiot will attack one little comment you make and a debate will fuel from that. I'm not going on about anything.. I'm simply responding to people quoting me. I think Palin has very little to do in this.. it's between mccain and obama more than anything, but I do believe that her daughter's fuck ups reflect on her mother's parenting. Agree to disagree? But what in god's name does my family have anything to do with our nominees lmao. Us "common folk" aren't running for president so it doesn't really matter, but the presidential nominees and their running mates should certainly carry the qualities to lead a country.

And really dude you don't have to take this so personally. Take a fuckin chill pill lol.

Edited by Freak, 07 September 2008 - 04:11 PM.

[pyke]

Alot of people would rather vote for the lesser of two evils to be on the safe and feel like they have done something instead of just using a wasted vote. The American political infrastructure is ridiciously unfair to third parties.

This is very true. The first across the finish line policy basically eliminates a third option.

[Ives]

Yeah, it sure gives you a feeling of not having a wasted vote, but what's the point of feeling good if you're voting for scum? I'd rather vote libertarian, and the only ways third parties will ever rise up to oppression is if either we eliminate the two parties or America really jumps the shark and hits rock bottom.

But I shouldn't complain. People in the UK at least have a more realistic attitude whereas I'm more on the anarchist side of bullshit like politics. When the war presidents are remembered as the "good ones" and the only peace president on that great list is George Washington, something fucked up is happening.

[pyke]

Yeah, it sure gives you a feeling of not having a wasted vote, but what's the point of feeling good if you're voting for scum? I'd rather vote libertarian, and the only ways third parties will ever rise up to oppression is if either we eliminate the two parties or America really jumps the shark and hits rock bottom.

But I shouldn't complain. People in the UK at least have a more realistic attitude whereas I'm more on the anarchist side of bullshit like politics. When the war presidents are remembered as the "good ones" and the only peace president on that great list is George Washington, something fucked up is happening.

I think that's because war time presidents typically had to show a lot more leadership and had a chunk more on their plates.

[redlion]

Yeah, it sure gives you a feeling of not having a wasted vote, but what's the point of feeling good if you're voting for scum? I'd rather vote libertarian, and the only ways third parties will ever rise up to oppression is if either we eliminate the two parties or America really jumps the shark and hits rock bottom.

But I shouldn't complain. People in the UK at least have a more realistic attitude whereas I'm more on the anarchist side of bullshit like politics. When the war presidents are remembered as the "good ones" and the only peace president on that great list is George Washington, something fucked up is happening.

In peace idiots get elected. Coolidge? Polk? Hoover?

And I would list Jefferson on the Great list. Maybe throw in some Madison. I mean, they dealt with minor warfare, but they aren't 'war' presidents.

[Grizzly]

Yeah, it sure gives you a feeling of not having a wasted vote, but what's the point of feeling good if you're voting for scum? I'd rather vote libertarian, and the only ways third parties will ever rise up to oppression is if either we eliminate the two parties or America really jumps the shark and hits rock bottom.

But I shouldn't complain. People in the UK at least have a more realistic attitude whereas I'm more on the anarchist side of bullshit like politics. When the war presidents are remembered as the "good ones" and the only peace president on that great list is George Washington, something fucked up is happening.

In peace idiots get elected. Coolidge? Polk? Hoover?

And I would list Jefferson on the Great list. Maybe throw in some Madison. I mean, they dealt with minor warfare, but they aren't 'war' presidents.

Don't forget Warren Harding lol best president evar

[Ives]

Yeah, but theres a difference between fighting a war like say, James Madison did, and using a war as a political tool like FDR, Lincoln, and Wilson did. Yet most people will have nothing but good words for the presidents who had a habit of taking habeas corpus. Hopefully people won't become so apathetic from this administration we remember George Bush in 30 years as a great president. Nixon isn't being remembered too well, so that's a hopeful sign.

Madison showed leadership, no doubt. Many had inexcusable actions.

Coolidge was reasonable aside from his odd taste for immigration policy and continuation of many quite evident failures from the previous administration. My favorite president is probably Washington or Jefferson, but I like Grover Cleaveland a lot for a more contemporary spin.

Zappa/Varese 08!

Edited by Athean, 08 September 2008 - 02:09 PM.