49 replies to this topic

[iargue]

It is never understandable to kill innocent civilians. Your reasoning is rooted at the start of a very slippery slope.

Whenever the enemy posses as an innocent civilian, and the "innocent" civilians also act like the enemy. Its really hard to determine who to shoot, and who not to shoot. Its not like they were like, "Lets shoot these people for fun". But it also is still not acceptable to just kill people. Which is why the Former general of the war dictated that your not allowed to shoot without confirming that it is an enemy first, or without being shot at. Reducing the number of civilian casualties helped to improve our image, and reduce the number of people defecting.

[Melchoire]

Some people seem to forget that the Apache gunship incident was one of the few that got leaked. There are several more cases out there just like it.

[Mr. Hobo]

The thing is, the charges were made up and dropped in such quick sucession that this whole affair is really bizarre. I'd understand if he were accused of rape, a pseudo-investigation went on and after a month of 'WIKILEAKS FOUNDER PROBABLY A RAPIST' being on the news they'd drop the case due to lack of evidence but because of the way things went down it looks very suspicious and I don't think it has done anything to smear his image.

If anything it has made him somewhat impervious to smear jobs in the form of trumped up charges as everyone will just be reminded of this incident

[Jake]

Well. Yeah. They wouldnt lie to the US Government.

It is never understandable to kill innocent civilians. Your reasoning is rooted at the start of a very slippery slope.

It was a possibility they could have been taliban, and if they were to ask them, as you want it iargue, they could have easily wounded/killed a soldier, no? I'm not taking sides here, it's just simply their lives or the enemies.

[Melchoire]

It was a possibility they could have been taliban, and if they were to ask them, as you want it iargue, they could have easily wounded/killed a soldier, no? I'm not taking sides here, it's just simply their lives or the enemies.

Wasn't that video from iraq?

[Grizzly]

Then moments later...



http://www.dailymail...o=feeds-newsxml
http://www.newsweek....not-wanted.html
http://www.sfgate.co...?entry_id=70624

What the hell? To me, this seems like a really dirty trick to try and smear the reputation of WikiLeaks so that people's attention is diverted away from the documents they're releasing.

What do you guys think?

What shocks me is that they actually failed at getting the sneaky bastard. I would think a powerful government would have the resources to frame one man for rape. Guess we're only talking about Sweden though. Or maybe you're right in that all they wanted to do was attack Assange's credibility, but I don't think that's working either.

[Jake]

Wasn't that video from iraq?

Dunno I watched it when it came out

[Warriors]

There is a fine line between Free Press and revealing military secrets in time of war...Shoot I am probably one of the far leftist persons I know, but maybe the soldier who did leak it to wikileaks should be charged for treason on certain issues...Certainly not for the civilian drone issue but other issues. Even in WW2, the press could not print about the Invasion of Normandy for fear of giving up the military's strategy. I don't know, I agree that it should be posted but this guy seems like a huge douche.

[iargue]

There is a fine line between Free Press and revealing military secrets in time of war...Shoot I am probably one of the far leftist persons I know, but maybe the soldier who did leak it to wikileaks should be charged for treason on certain issues...Certainly not for the civilian drone issue but other issues. Even in WW2, the press could not print about the Invasion of Normandy for fear of giving up the military's strategy. I don't know, I agree that it should be posted but this guy seems like a huge douche.

They are not posting military secrets related to the war stupid. Everything that can be of value to the enemy was removed, and what is left is the information that we need to know what the fuck our government is doing.

Everything in the stuff they post, happens in the past. He does not leak future operations. If its a day -after- D-Day. Its okay to write about it in the press.

[Melchoire]

There is a fine line between Free Press and revealing military secrets in time of war...Shoot I am probably one of the far leftist persons I know, but maybe the soldier who did leak it to wikileaks should be charged for treason on certain issues...Certainly not for the civilian drone issue but other issues. Even in WW2, the press could not print about the Invasion of Normandy for fear of giving up the military's strategy. I don't know, I agree that it should be posted but this guy seems like a huge douche.

There's no strategy involved. You have the US with their predator drones and cruise missiles and the Iraqi's with a few AK's and bombs...it wasn't a war either it was an invasion. Assange is doing the world a favor by further exposing the US as the greedy militaristic empire that it is.

[Noitidart]

I don't think even the best equipped Iraqi soldier (if there was such thing) is a threat to US soldiers in an Apache helicopter.
ok best equipped is definitely an exaggeration but you're in a chopper you can definitely take the whatever is the % chance of dying from a bullet shot from lo tech when ur in such an armored chopper?
like argue says the general was good to make that first shot at rule and when you're in a chopper like that it should be easy

There's no strategy involved. You have the US with their predator drones and cruise missiles and the Iraqi's with a few AK's and bombs...it wasn't a war either it was an invasion.

So so so true. An invasion of like a cave mans cave.

There's a worse situation in Israel to Palestine. The Palestinians dont even have the AKs or bombs.

[Waser Lave]

They are not posting military secrets related to the war stupid. Everything that can be of value to the enemy was removed, and what is left is the information that we need to know what the fuck our government is doing.

Everything in the stuff they post, happens in the past. He does not leak future operations. If its a day -after- D-Day. Its okay to write about it in the press.

Except that they posted the details of soldiers and local informants too in the initial release, that wasn't a good idea. Fortunately they've learned from that and are spending the time to go through the remaining documents to redact those kinds of details.

[MsRose]

It is never understandable to kill innocent civilians. Your reasoning is rooted at the start of a very slippery slope.

I kind of see Jake's point of view though. War is war. I don't know what people expected to see in that video. War is never beautiful or glorious like novels and movies want us to believe. The truth of the matter is that terrorists don't walk around with shirts that say "I'm a terrorist. Shoot here". The men in the video were carrying guns around there shoulders as they walked down the street. Most normal civilians don't carry AK-47's with them on a stroll. Do I like that we're over there? Hell no. Do I agree with it? absolutely not. But I'm sure as hell not going to sit behind my cozy computer desk and judge those who face life and death everyday in some politicians war.

/rant

[Melchoire]

I kind of see Jake's point of view though. War is war. I don't know what people expected to see in that video. War is never beautiful or glorious like novels and movies want us to believe. The truth of the matter is that terrorists don't walk around with shirts that say "I'm a terrorist. Shoot here". The men in the video were carrying guns around there shoulders as they walked down the street. Most normal civilians don't carry AK-47's with them on a stroll. Do I like that we're over there? Hell no. Do I agree with it? absolutely not. But I'm sure as hell not going to sit behind my cozy computer desk and judge those who face life and death everyday in some politicians war.

/rant

Did you listen to the way they were speaking?

[Noitidart]

I kind of see Jake's point of view though. War is war. I don't know what people expected to see in that video. War is never beautiful or glorious like novels and movies want us to believe. The truth of the matter is that terrorists don't walk around with shirts that say "I'm a terrorist. Shoot here". The men in the video were carrying guns around there shoulders as they walked down the street. Most normal civilians don't carry AK-47's with them on a stroll. Do I like that we're over there? Hell no. Do I agree with it? absolutely not. But I'm sure as hell not going to sit behind my cozy computer desk and judge those who face life and death everyday in some politicians war.

/rant

lol trust me they weren't facing a life or death situation from their insanely awesome apache helicopter.

[MsRose]

Did you listen to the way they were speaking?

The things that they said certainly weren't right. But it's important to remember that the video on wikileaks is extremely edited. The full version isn't quite as bad and a lot more things make sense. They thought they just killed terriorist, and so I think that's where all the shitty language and attitude came from. Besides that, it's what solder's do. I'm sure this is the first time those solders have killed someone. For us, watching this at home, there is a tremendous shock value, but I'm sure they see that kind of stuff everyday. I'm not trying to excuse them from what was said, but I am trying to rationalize it.

lol trust me they weren't facing a life or death situation from their insanely awesome apache helicopter.

I'm sure that wasn't their first duty and I'm sure that's not what they do everyday. But I can't say for sure, I know little to nothing about the army.

[Noitidart]

What wasn't their first duty doll?
Aren't you rationalizing it by saying they were facing life/death?

[MsRose]

What wasn't their first duty doll?
Aren't you rationalizing it by saying they were facing life/death?

That's just how I am; I rationalize everything.
When I first watched the video I was like everyone else
But, then I stopped, researched it, watched the full length, unedited video and realized it was pretty much just a media hype.

I guess I try to think of what I would do in their situation. I mean what would you do? They're carrying guns in a large group and it's your responsibility to try to find people like that and kill them. Would you have shoot? There really aren't any other options. Basically what I meant by saying "I don't judge them because they face life and death blah blaah.." was that I've never been in their shoes. I've never had to shoot someone and take their life. I couldn't imagine what is going through your head when you're about to pull that trigger. Now suddenly everyone is horrified about what happened in the video, but I don't think the video is anything unusual or spectacular. I think it's what war looks like.

I think the only thing about the video anyone can get upset over is the way the solder's talk. But like I said before, to them death looses it's shock value. So it's hard for us, when we're watching this video terrified of the brutality of it, to hear them carrying on a conversation like they were eating breakfast. It makes us angry that they can be "so insensitive". But how would you rather have it? Solder's are trained to kill other human beings. If we had it how everyone wants it, where they were somber and thoughtful about these deaths, and allowed these deaths to haunt their minds so that it's some kind of redemption, then I say to you you're the sick one. Solder's come home all the time fucked out of their god damn mind about what they saw. A lot of them kill themselves or are unable to lead any type of normal life afterward. Is this really what you'd prefer. It doesn't matter if they said those horrible things or wept like babies, because those men would have died either way.

[Noitidart]

But rose they aren't facing death from their awesome apache helicopter versus those people on foot.

[iargue]

But rose they aren't facing death from their awesome apache helicopter versus those people on foot.

Helicopters can be shot down...

[Jake]

But rose they aren't facing death from their awesome apache helicopter versus those people on foot.

Like she mentioned they are used to seeing these types of situations, obviously they aren't in helicopters all of the time and they have most likely been involved on foot missions, duty and invasions before. I mean I agree with all of Rose said, if anything I like to rationalise as well... people may not like what they said but certainly their enemies would be talking the same way, comparatively of course.

[Melchoire]

That's just how I am; I rationalize everything.
When I first watched the video I was like everyone else
But, then I stopped, researched it, watched the full length, unedited video and realized it was pretty much just a media hype.

I guess I try to think of what I would do in their situation. I mean what would you do? They're carrying guns in a large group and it's your responsibility to try to find people like that and kill them. Would you have shoot? There really aren't any other options. Basically what I meant by saying "I don't judge them because they face life and death blah blaah.." was that I've never been in their shoes. I've never had to shoot someone and take their life. I couldn't imagine what is going through your head when you're about to pull that trigger. Now suddenly everyone is horrified about what happened in the video, but I don't think the video is anything unusual or spectacular. I think it's what war looks like.

I think the only thing about the video anyone can get upset over is the way the solder's talk. But like I said before, to them death looses it's shock value. So it's hard for us, when we're watching this video terrified of the brutality of it, to hear them carrying on a conversation like they were eating breakfast. It makes us angry that they can be "so insensitive". But how would you rather have it? Solder's are trained to kill other human beings. If we had it how everyone wants it, where they were somber and thoughtful about these deaths, and allowed these deaths to haunt their minds so that it's some kind of redemption, then I say to you you're the sick one. Solder's come home all the time fucked out of their god damn mind about what they saw. A lot of them kill themselves or are unable to lead any type of normal life afterward. Is this really what you'd prefer. It doesn't matter if they said those horrible things or wept like babies, because those men would have died either way.

How the fuck do you rationalize shooting at people who're trying to carry the injured to safety? Then shooting at the van with children inside it. Don't try to feel remorse for them. They knew what they were getting themselves into.

[redlion]

Sorry to 'follow' you around like this, but your posts stuck out like a couple sore thumbs.

I'm not trying to excuse them from what was said, but I am trying to rationalize it.

I'm sure that wasn't their first duty and I'm sure that's not what they do everyday. But I can't say for sure, I know little to nothing about the army.

I think you should look up what rationalizing is. Here, I found it for you -Link-

Allow me to excerpt a small portion.

In psychology and logic, rationalization (or making excuses) is a defense mechanism in which perceived controversial behaviors or feelings are explained in a rational or logical manner to avoid the true explanation, to differentiate from the original deterministic explanation, of the behavior or feeling in question. It is also an informal fallacy of reasoning.

So you aren't trying to excuse them but you are trying to excuse it.

Logical fallacy indeed.

That's just how I am; I rationalize everything.

Wrong. You aspire to rationalization -link- in the sense that you want to be rational. Rationalizing is excusing. Two different uses of the root word.

How the fuck do you rationalize shooting at people who're trying to carry the injured to safety? Then shooting at the van with children inside it. Don't try to feel remorse for them. They knew what they were getting themselves into.

Agreed. Recruiters lie, but you still figure that if you are in a combat role, you're going to see combat.

[MsRose]

Sorry to 'follow' you around like this, but your posts stuck out like a couple sore thumbs.I think you should look up what rationalizing is. Here, I found it for you -Link-

Allow me to excerpt a small portion.
So you aren't trying to excuse them but you are trying to excuse it.

Logical fallacy indeed.


Wrong. You aspire to rationalization -link- in the sense that you want to be rational. Rationalizing is excusing. Two different uses of the root word.


Agreed. Recruiters lie, but you still figure that if you are in a combat role, you're going to see combat.

it's no wonder that you're over 10,000 posts and only have 1 good rep.

If you keep following me around cause you're butthurt I'll just block you and be done with it.