223 replies to this topic

[WharfRat]

Even if someone is genetically pre-disposed to addiction, if they never come into contact with the substance then they will never develop the problem see? if drugs became over the counter as was being argued above, then some of these people might waltz into one of these pharmacies and try the drug simply because it is there, or because they read about it on the internet.

I am saying that legalizing drugs will make it easier to come by, whereas keeping it illegal will make it so that people are forced to go through channels to get them.

And either way, a drug addicts family will have to deal with the consequences of the individual's drug addiction

Freedom has its consequences of course, if an individual had the freedom of trying a drug, and they decided to try it once just to know what it feels like and it produced a feeling that cant be replicated through other means, would it not be incorrect to say that they would be extremely tempted to continue to take the drug hence addiction?

Your argument might hold water if alcohol or tobacco or sex or gambling or rock and roll were not legal. Addiction is a disease and regardless of if drugs are legal or not, an addict is going to be exposed to something that floods dopamine across their synapses.

As to the families of drug addicts, I bet know that they would prefer to treat it as a medical issue and to offer treatment to their family member instead of them being thrown into a prison for x years and stripped of nearly any real chance at success back in the real world.

[Madcowz]

Frostz your point is fundamentally flawed. Things being illegal doesn't really make them more difficult to get. WHen I was in high school I would have had a much easier time getting weed than getting booze. When you legalize and regulate things it takes money out of the criminals hands that are making money pushing all the stuff. We learned this during prohibition of alcohol, we created people like Al Capone and gave them a medium through which to control the market of something that people want. Prohibition of anything does not decrease use.

I have no desire to do heroin or meth today. If it was legalized tomorrow I still would have no desire to do it. Almost everyone would feel the same way, who thinks we need the government to protect us from ourselves? Like we need all these laws? We live in a nanny-state sometimes. I just want to smoke my weed

Ron Paul 2012

We allow cigarettes. Might as well allow drugs and let the entire world kill itself off. Life would be better then.

I enjoy the freedom that I am given in america, and I also enjoy the freedom of not being killed by a coke addict so he can buy more coke.

You of course, believe that if everyone had access to drugs, everyone would be happy, there would be more money, and everything would be fine. You forget the fact that if you could have gotten an unlimited supply of drugs, you would be dead.

But its fine. Believe what you want to believe. Drugs will never be legal, and for good reason.

Your points are kind of crazy. You think if drugs were legalized the country would be infested with coke heads walking the street?? Uhhhh sorry no. Like I Said prohibition does not decrease use, it just creates criminals. No one that wants to do coke isn't doing it because of an issue of availability. IF you look just a little bit, you can find it anywhere. Focus should be treatment for those addicted to heavy drugs, this doesn't include Marijuana, mushrooms or other naturally occuring plants that government has demonized mainly because of stupid right-wing christian moralfags running rampant in DC and throughout the country.

This cocaine a lot of people are bringing up isn't even as dangerous as alcohol

Deaths per user:
Alcohol = 100,000/140,000,000 = .07 % or 70 per 100,000
Cocaine = 1,000/ 12,200,000 = .008 % or 8 per 100,000

Deaths per abuser:
Alcohol = 100,000/18,000,000 = .56 % or 56 per 10,000
Cocaine = 1,000/ 250,000 = .40 % or 40 per 10,000

http://www.erowid.or...ics_info1.shtml

Alcohol has more fatal risk than that of cocaine. Just because something isn't a government sponsored poison (aka Cigs + booze) doesn't mean it is more destructive.

Anyone who thinks weed should be illegal is a dumb person plain and simple.

Sorry for the long winded post, I'm a huge advocate of this and am just sick of seeing so many people believe government lies that we are fed since we are little kids. Partership for a drug free youth is funded by alcohol companies. Don't be sheep

if anything you would have more deaths from drug overdose simply from the fact that there will be an increase number of people using drugs.

Nope.

People are idiots and should not be trusted with any drugs.

Over the counter medication should not even exist. Coffee should not exist. Anything that alters your mood should be controlled to prevent misuse. Million of people abuse things because it makes them happy, even if for just a little bit. It happens every single day. From people having 20 cups of coffee because "They cant survive without it" to people drinking 5 bottles of cough medicine for a high to people to people that sleep with anyone just for the feeling that they get during it.

Human are stupid, and tend to abuse anything that is slightly good, despite the negative effects that they have on it. Do you really think that half the world would be alive if they could pop pills and forget their troubles? Alcohol is bad enough, and if it didn't taste like shit 20,000x more people would drink until they die.

So you are saying that we shouldn't have anything that's good because we like it too much therefore can become addicted?? Man you seem a little conservative and close-minded try enjoying life more. That may not be doing drugs recreationally but that is what some people like to do and if it's not harming anyone else, who are you to try and impose your morals on another? Listen to what Joe Rogan says about abuse in this clip, love the quote.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7RhSKvlOfE

Edited by Madcowz, 17 May 2011 - 03:10 PM.

[Frizzle]

[quote name='WharfRat' timestamp='1305668410' post=
Second post that was added after the one above to respond to Lee. --------

I lol'ed at your pointing out the British spelling to me. No, I don't think most people plan on starting out on heroin... (Though I'm sure it does happen. Before I ever had a cigarette, a drop of alcohol, or any marijuana, I was doing cocaine; my first drug that I actively sought to find.) but I also don't think that people just accidentally end up doing heroin either. I think this theory of gateway drugs that you are pulling from is inherently flawed. (The, "ask any drug addict what the first drug they ever did was and they will all tell you it was marijuana" thing) The same could be applied to alcohol, tobacco, or paracetamol (look at me throwing in British shit for you. )

p.s. frostz, err.. I mean, a certain somebody, see my long post above.
[/quote]

Completely agree, all kind of substance use will eventually lead the human body to a stronger high if given enough time and no consequences. Although that isn't a reason for drug legalisation, more of a reason for alcohol and tobacco illegalislation.

Danke mein fuher on ze English

[zandra]

alcohol and ciggs are legal because the government can tax us on that =D the plants to create them are rather big so they cant hide from the radar. that isnt true for cocaine hence it is illegal =D

[Surrico]

All poisons should be legalized.

Seriously, they should be. It should not be the government's business to tell you what you can and cannot put into your body. I don't like the idea that if I am caught taking a swig of illegal poison walking down the street minding my own business a police officer can quite literally choose to rip me from society and lock me in a cage with the murders and rapists of the world. Thats what criminalization of substances does, it creates nothing but criminals (at the expense of the tax payer mind you!) Non violent poison offenders, to me, are not criminals. They are just people who made the decision to consume a poisonous substance and experience and altered state of death.

The bottom line is that poison use is not a CRIMINAL problem but a SOCIAL and HEALTH problem.

Poisons is to loose of a term for the topic at hand. A poison could be bleach, antifreeze, or a variety of household cleaners that are used daily. Even soap has a warning about eating it on the label. Even toothpaste has the warning about contacting a poison control facility if more than the amount used to brush is swallowed.

alcohol and ciggs are legal because the government can tax us on that =D the plants to create them are rather big so they cant hide from the radar. that isnt true for cocaine hence it is illegal =D

By legalizing it the government could tax us on these drugs just as easily as others. I'm not sure about how to make cocaine so I can't say how big of a facility is needed to make them but I know that a lot of others like crack and many pot growers have gotten busted in my home town lately all from neighbors or family friends calling to turn them in.

[Madcowz]

By legalizing it the government could tax us on these drugs just as easily as others. I'm not sure about how to make cocaine so I can't say how big of a facility is needed to make them but I know that a lot of others like crack and many pot growers have gotten busted in my home town lately all from neighbors or family friends calling to turn them in.

snitches get stitches

[frostz]

Frostz your point is fundamentally flawed. Things being illegal doesn't really make them more difficult to get. WHen I was in high school I would have had a much easier time getting weed than getting booze. When you legalize and regulate things it takes money out of the criminals hands that are making money pushing all the stuff. We learned this during prohibition of alcohol, we created people like Al Capone and gave them a medium through which to control the market of something that people want. Prohibition of anything does not decrease use.

I have no desire to do heroin or meth today. If it was legalized tomorrow I still would have no desire to do it. Almost everyone would feel the same way, who thinks we need the government to protect us from ourselves? Like we need all these laws? We live in a nanny-state sometimes. I just want to smoke my weed

Ron Paul 2012

Well i have never had any experience when it comes to actually trying to buy alcohol or weed so i am looking at it from an outsiders point of view i suppose. I mean if you wanted alcohol, you could get an older friend to buy it for you, or borrow an ID from someone who looks fairly similar to you (thats what someone i know used to do)

Whereas i would think that if you wanted to buy weed, you would actually need to find a contact.

[giraffe]

Well i have never had any experience when it comes to actually trying to buy alcohol or weed so i am looking at it from an outsiders point of view i suppose. I mean if you wanted alcohol, you could get an older friend to buy it for you, or borrow an ID from someone who looks fairly similar to you (thats what someone i know used to do)

Whereas i would think that if you wanted to buy weed, you would actually need to find a contact.

Finding a contact is fairly easy if you're trying to get some pot. I think the biggest problem with people wanting pot to remain illegal is that they don't realize how ineffective the laws are at keeping pot out of people's hands.

[frostz]

Finding a contact is fairly easy if you're trying to get some pot. I think the biggest problem with people wanting pot to remain illegal is that they don't realize how ineffective the laws are at keeping pot out of people's hands.

While i am not a user of the substance myself, i do see your point at least for pot maybe..I would argue against its legalization as a matter of principle
But as far as legalizing other more dangerous drugs, I honestly don't think that is a very good idea due to the very real and dangerous effects that they can come to have.

[Madcowz]

While i am not a user of the substance myself, i do see your point at least for pot maybe..I would argue against its legalization as a matter of principle
But as far as legalizing other more dangerous drugs, I honestly don't think that is a very good idea due to the very real and dangerous effects that they can come to have.

Again I say prohibition does not decrease use . People that want to do meth will do so, and possibly destroy their lives with it, yes. However focus should be treatment, not punishment and making money for governments putting people into our bogus prison system. Putting people in with rapists and murderers and got caught with substances they should be able to do, as long as they aren't harming anyone else, it's bogus. If the U.S. truly has liberty, freedom, and people have their own free will you should be able to choose to do these things. We don't need to live in a nanny-state

Edited by Madcowz, 18 May 2011 - 01:55 PM.

[frostz]

Again I say prohibition does not decrease use . People that want to do meth will do so, and possibly destroy their lives with it, yes. However focus should be treatment, not punishment and making money for governments putting people into our bogus prison system. Putting people in with rapists and murderers and got caught with substances they should be able to do, as long as they aren't harming anyone else, it's bogus. If the U.S. truly has liberty, freedom, and people have their own free will you should be able to choose to do these things. We don't need to live in a nanny-state

It won't decrease use from the non-law abiding people who want and do find ways to get their hands on drugs. But legalizing will probably increase the number to the people on the edge but refrain because of fear of getting caught.

I mean i notice that many people are saying that they dont want to use whatever drug and if they legalize it they wouldnt suddenly want to go use it. But there are people out there who want to use it but are unable to get their hands on the drugs, or want to use it but are afraid of breaking the law.

If thievery were legalized for example, then we can probably expect mass looting..from the people who want to steal but don't because they would be thrown in jail. Same analogy would probably apply to drugs.

[giraffe]

While i am not a user of the substance myself, i do see your point at least for pot maybe..I would argue against its legalization as a matter of principle
But as far as legalizing other more dangerous drugs, I honestly don't think that is a very good idea due to the very real and dangerous effects that they can come to have.

Can you explain your principle, please? I mean, you've basically said you see our point, but still no, just because.

[frostz]

Can you explain your principle, please? I mean, you've basically said you see our point, but still no, just because.

I see your point in that you cannot prevent people who want to do drugs from getting their hands on them.

But out of a matter of principle they should remain illegal. People shouldn't be using drugs to begin with because of harmful effects for both the individual and others. Even if its something like weed its still a drug and we don't need to legalize it to create ground for the legalization of the rest of them, slippery slope argument i know

[Madcowz]

I see your point in that you cannot prevent people who want to do drugs from getting their hands on them.

But out of a matter of principle they should remain illegal. People shouldn't be using drugs to begin with because of harmful effects for both the individual and others. Even if its something like weed its still a drug and we don't need to legalize it to create ground for the legalization of the rest of them, slippery slope argument i know

Weed is illegal purely for economical reasons, fueled by lies and people believing government propaganda like apparently you do?

A matter of principle? That's silly? So having senseless laws against natural substance is principle? Whose principle?
here watch this

I think you have fallen a little bit too much for the "DARE" program frostz. The weed is a slippery slope argument or a gateway drug makes me absolutely sick that a lot of people really buy that and the gateway drug crap.

Here watch this. All of it


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wNLxoEz2tE4

Edited by Madcowz, 18 May 2011 - 02:52 PM.

[WharfRat]

Frostz, I see that you still have yet to respond to my line by line response to your fallacious arguments.

[frostz]

Frostz, I see that you still have yet to respond to my line by line response to your fallacious arguments.

. First, the legalization of marijuana doesn't actually mean it would be more readily available for children/teens. A study was done by the White House Office of National Drug Control Policy that showed that for all age category of students polled, marijuana was much more easily accessible than was alcohol. That should make it blatantly clear that age restrictions and legal measures are more effective than allowing the black market to dictate trade to minors.

Weed is easier to get most likely because once they find their source, they will have a constant supply from which you can go to to personally pick up whereas for alcohol you would always need to get someone else to buy it for you from the store. I am arguing that if you legalize weed then those who do not have access will now be able to get their hands on it whereas before to even begin you would need to find someone who already smokes weed, and then get them to reveal their source. I don't have proof to back this up of course but its from a logical conclusion in my opinion.

It certainly doesn't appear that drugs (in particular marijuana) are worse for you than Tobacco or Alcohol as you stated above.

Moving right along, by your own admission you stated:

Again i state that bad for you does not necessarily mean that the drug has to be fatal. Bad can refer to "destroying your life" for example

So you are on record saying that drugs are still going to be around regardless of them being illegal or not. Logically, the only reason they would still be around is because people are choosing to use them and hence the demand. So from your own version of reality, the thing that changes circumstantially to the legalization of marijuana isn't the demand or the use, but instead you'd prefer to see people who you claim are addicted go to jail for their addiction than for it to be treated as a medical issue over a criminal one.

I am not really sure what you are saying here. From my point of view legalization of weed would not necessarily increase demand, but rather it would make it more widely available, allowing those who want to do it but can't get their hands on it or are afraid to break the law to start using it.

What do you think an addiction to a video game is then if it is not a biochemical dependency? Addiction by it's very nature is derived from the need of the person be it psychologically or physically. Both forms of addiction are caused through a biochemical link to the act at hand and the feeling of pleasure.]

You would not suffer from physical withdrawal symptoms if you stop playing your computer. See meph users.

Withdrawal occurs because your brain works like a spring when it comes to addiction. Drugs and alcohol are brain depressants that push down the spring. They suppress your brain's production of neurotransmitters like noradrenaline. When you stop using drugs or alcohol it's like taking the weight off the spring, and your brain rebounds by producing a surge of adrenaline that causes withdrawal symptoms.

Every drug is different. Some drugs produce significant physical withdrawal (alcohol, opiates, and tranquilizers). Some drugs produce little physical withdrawal, but more emotional withdrawal (cocaine, marijuana, and ecstasy). Every person's physical withdrawal pattern is also different. You may experience little physical withdrawal. But that doesn't mean that you're not addicted, instead you may experience more emotional withdrawal.

Below are two lists of withdrawal symptoms. The first list is the emotional withdrawal symptoms produced by all drugs. You can experience them whether you have physical withdrawal symptoms or not. The second list is the physical withdrawal symptoms that usually occur with alcohol, opiates, and tranquilizers.

Playing computer games wouldn't have a direct chemical effect on your brain, you may want to play it but it wouldn't hurt you if you stopped. You are merely gaining a sort of satisfaction that you cannot get otherwise same as with chemical drugs, but stopping the game doesn't produce any harmful physical effects.

Edited by frostz, 18 May 2011 - 06:50 PM.

[Surrico]

You would not suffer from physical withdrawal symptoms if you stop playing your computer. See meph users.

Playing computer games wouldn't have a direct chemical effect on your brain, you may want to play it but it wouldn't hurt you if you stopped. You are merely gaining a sort of satisfaction that you cannot get otherwise same as with chemical drugs, but stopping the game doesn't produce any harmful physical effects.

A person can become addicted to a game although not chemically but because games are meant to be an escape from real life. Some people might become to entwined with a game and then seek to live in the virtual world rather than the real world. With this long periods of time away from the ideal fantasy world that they play in could very well lead to depression for being stuck in a world that isn't what they wish.

I am not really sure what you are saying here. From my point of view legalization of weed would not necessarily increase demand, but rather it would make it more widely available, allowing those who want to do it but can't get their hands on it or are afraid to break the law to start using it.

The demand for a drug would increase slightly with the legalization for exactly the same reason as you are saying. Those who want to partake in it but are afraid of breaking the law would start to use it. But they would be going through legal means to get these drugs. I can be sure of that because like you said, these are the people that are afraid of breaking the law.


I think a better counterpoint to the legalization of all drugs would be an increase in illegal selling of it. You can get X amount of so many different drugs a day. Even if you don't use them why not go buy and simply turn around and resell it (higher price no doubt) to younger people that are actively seeking to get their hands on these drugs. Just because they legalize it doesn't mean it will be easy to make sure that you are the person using the drug.

[giraffe]

Weed is easier to get most likely because once they find their source, they will have a constant supply from which you can go to to personally pick up whereas for alcohol you would always need to get someone else to buy it for you from the store. I am arguing that if you legalize weed then those who do not have access will now be able to get their hands on it whereas before to even begin you would need to find someone who already smokes weed, and then get them to reveal their source. I don't have proof to back this up of course but its from a logical conclusion in my opinion.

You're contradicting yourself here. If it's easier because they have a constant supply but not for alcohol, then if you legalize pot then it'll have the SAME RESTRICTIONS AS ALCOHOL and therefore it will be similarly difficult to get.

You would not suffer from physical withdrawal symptoms if you stop playing your computer. See meph users.



Playing computer games wouldn't have a direct chemical effect on your brain, you may want to play it but it wouldn't hurt you if you stopped. You are merely gaining a sort of satisfaction that you cannot get otherwise same as with chemical drugs, but stopping the game doesn't produce any harmful physical effects.

As far as I'm aware, not all drugs cause chemical dependency, either.

[Surrico]

As far as I'm aware, not all drugs cause chemical dependency, either.

If you consider alcohol a drug then I would say it's one that does not. I know some that have a family member or been exposed to someone that's an alcoholic might have an easier time of developing the same attitude but I don't see alcohol causing a chemical dependency. However I can see the extended use of any drug to cause a physical dependency such that stopping for a while would cause withdrawl symptoms in the person.

[frostz]

You're contradicting yourself here. If it's easier because they have a constant supply but not for alcohol, then if you legalize pot then it'll have the SAME RESTRICTIONS AS ALCOHOL and therefore it will be similarly difficult to get.

I am saying that it is easier to get once they find a supply but remain impossible to get if they cannot. Whereas alcohol while difficult to buy, is ultimately possible with a little imagination.

[Surrico]

I am saying that it is easier to get once they find a supply but remain impossible to get if they cannot. Whereas alcohol while difficult to buy, is ultimately possible with a little imagination.

With the right gear either can be grown or made in a closet. Prohibition you had bathtub whiskey, since people would brew it in many bathtubs they had setup in their basements. With the right lamp you can grow plants in your closet; place a blanket or something at the foot of the door inside it to hide the glow coming from under it and you'll be less likely to get busted on it. True you would need to get hands on a few seeds but if you were serious about getting it then it could be done easily.

[Madcowz]

I am saying that it is easier to get once they find a supply but remain impossible to get if they cannot. Whereas alcohol while difficult to buy, is ultimately possible with a little imagination.

It's not impossible or hard anywhere.

[frostz]

It's not impossible or hard anywhere.

of course it is, if you are not part of that group of people do you just go up to random people asking , "hey do you smoke wee?, can you give me your contact?"
I for one would never be able to figure out where to get it if not for the fact that i personally know a few people who do smoke

[Sweeney]

I for one would never be able to figure out where to get it if not for the fact that i personally know a few people who do smoke

*blink*
Are you serious, here?