277 replies to this topic

[Veggie]

i think that people should be allowed to believe whatever the fuck they want to believe without them being told they're wrong for whatever it is they do.

it'd be a better place if people wouldn't go around, shoving their christianity, judaism, atheism, ect.. down other peoples' throats.

[artificial]

i think that people should be allowed to believe whatever the fuck they want to believe without them being told they're wrong for whatever it is they do.

it'd be a better place if people wouldn't go around, shoving their christianity, judaism, atheism, ect.. down other peoples' throats.

 

I'm actually very accepting of other people's beliefs. Just as I don't think organised religion has the right to prey on the vulnerable and less fortunate in the teachings of their beliefs, I similarly think atheists who make a point of belittling theists for their beliefs are just as much in the wrong (particularly when it's an unwanted discussion). You're not going to convert someone unwilling to be converted, you're just going to come off as an asshole. 

 

I had an interesting conversation the other day with a couple of friends who are theists. One point they repeatedly made was that without religion there would be no morality, we would have no moral compass and we would be wicked. It's easy to dismiss that on face value as being fairly ridiculous. I don't believe in god, and yet I consider myself a solid person (although most people would make a similar assessment of themselves). Although, if an objective outsider studied my actions, they should see that I am in fact a morally sound individual. I've seen no noticeable correlation within my group of friends between their morality and their religious beliefs.

 

However, I live a comfortable life. I am reasonably intelligent, well educated, had a loving parental upbringing, came from reasonable wealth, and lived in a very safe neighbourhood my entire life. I don't need religion in my life. I am able to objectively look at it as a fallacy of gigantic proportions. However, I think religion can also represent a symbol of hope for a lot of people. I think individuals who come from lower socio-economic background, with a reduced opportunity towards education, employment, safety, etc., need some sort of hope in their lives, and in this sense I think religion and spirituality can, for the meantime, fill that void. My original answer to the poll was before without religion, but I'd like to change that to better for religion. I think it's a societal problem more than anything else. I think as time goes by and living conditions and education, particularly amongst the poor continue to rise, that void which is currently required by religion will, for the most part cease to exist. Though I think for now it's a required distraction. 

Edited by Artificial, 05 May 2014 - 07:44 PM.

[Ratila]

definitely better without.

who needs jesus, anyways?

[Elindoril]

definitely better without.
who needs jesus, anyways?

Jesus does.

[Casilla]

Can I be late to the party on this?  I haven't read this thread.  Apologies to Josh.

 

As anyone who knows me knows, I am an atheist.  But...I believe religion is generally a good thing.

 

A huge critique about religion is that it divides us by making our brother man seem different, and different is easy to see as less equal, and then the enemy, and then finally inhuman.  But in some hypothetical land where there weren't religion, there would be something else.  In fact, there are already plenty of "something elses".  There's nationalism, there's culture, there's ethnicity, there's income, there's profession, there's skin color, and there's gender, to name a few.

 

Those are all things that can divide - that do divide - but they also unify, because they are all commonalities.  Religion acts as a commonality as well.  And unlike all those other things that divide, most religions do promote something greater than themselves: charity, and when done right, love for fellow man.  And if nothing else, purpose and hope, even if it is a falsity.  Do non-religious groups do this as well?  Of course, but not on the same scale, and that is a relatively modern invention anyway.

 

Now, it is easy to find religious people who hate, who ridicule, who even kill those others who are not like them.  But as I said, it's easy to find that in every human group, because the behavior is common to all mankind.  And don't tell me, "Well, religion is the cause of most of it."  No, religion is the excuse of most of it.  Do you think the British Empire really wanted to "convert the savages" when they invaded various countries?  No, they wanted land and resources.  Do you think the Muslim conquests of Jerusalem and the Catholic's church crusade against them was really about religious differences?  No, it was about who held a seat of profound social, political and financial power.  Do you think religion had anything to do with witch hunts and the Inquisition?  No, it was a way for various church groups to remove political rivals while also securing a power base.  Do you think the countless issues with female genital mutilation in Africa and the Middle East have anything to do with Islam?  No, it is a cultural practice that spans back well before Islam's founding.  These conflicts and more would have happened in some fashion at some time, even without religion.

 

You might be thinking now that, religion is still bad because it is used as an excuse, and it is used as a means to control people.  Yes, that is true.  But let's look at some non-religious examples, hmm?  McCarthyism is a great recent example.  Yes, there is a tidbit about godless communists, but the driving force was really capitalist vs communism, not religion.  It was used as an excuse for a great many civil liberty violations.  And what about the persecution/internment of German and Japanese American citizens during WW2?  Despite many of the families being in the country for decades...well, you are THIS ethnicity, so off to camp you go!  And there are a great many racial hate crimes committed all over the world, by groups (and individuals).  Are you black in the South in the wrong decade?  That's a beating, despite often being the same religion.  And that shit still goes on in South America to some extent.  Women in Africa and India get gang raped, despite it expressedly being against their religious teachings, and the "police" look the other way because it is a "cultural" thing.  And just look all over the Middle East to see how people of the same religion (and even the same subsect, Sunni or Shi'ite), will happily kill each other over tribal and racial distinctions (and primarily, who controls land).

 

So what is the common cause of all this?  There are differences between people and eventually they come to blows.  But no one thing is truly the root cause of this evil.

 

Individuals might be motivated by religious beliefs to commit atrocities, but that is rarely the cause of a group action, and it is never the sole cause that group has.

 

Although I can only imagine what the Aztecs were thinking.

 

We do not often hear about the good things that people do (in the name of religion or otherwise), because it rarely makes the news or the history books.  To me, it doesn't matter why someone does something good for others.  I do not care if they think it gets them "points" with God, or if they see it as a social duty, or if they feel simply altruistic.  The outcome is the same.

 

We as a species need to be able to love each other despite our differences if we are ever to truly blossom.  If anything, these differences, including beliefs, make us stronger, not weaker.  We all come from the same source, whether that is God or not, and we all share the same future.

[jargon]

In response to the question of whether humanity would be better off with or without religion... it's hard to say.

 

For one, obviously in the past humanity was better off with religion, because all the early tribes that did not have religion either died off or were killed off. In an evolutionary sense, religion made certain groups of people stronger. Now fast forward to the present day and it's hard to say whether religion is as beneficial as it once was. Due to globalization, people from all over the world can communicate with relative efficiency, which means we can usually come to terms over a disagreement in a diplomatic way. It seems that nowadays, religion does nothing but cause strife.

 

In some cases, it is beneficial. Being part of a religious group is more than just following certain doctrines and worship, it also has to do with belonging to a set community with the same values as your own. In small communities this is extremely important for effective socialization, particularly if you are from an impoverished urban neighborhood where most of the support and resources you get are from your local church. 

 

I foresee religion mostly disappearing in the future as we become more individualized and isolated due to technology. Religion has mainly lost its purpose once the individual is disconnected from the community, which is an almost inevitable outcome once more and more people make the transition into living mostly on the internet. Of course you can still believe in God or anything else, but there's a difference between believing in something, and being a part of an organized religion. Internet culture in general tends to promote atheism or at least a healthy agnostic attitude. Along with her modern day schedules and values (also preferring to spend our free time staring at our computer screens), no one really has time to dedicate themselves to spiritual activities. Whether it is a good thing or not remains to be seen.

[hedgehog282]

I'm not religious and think the world would be better without religion. I've seen how religion can help people but overall I've seen more negatives with religion.

[Romy]

Religion does help people find meaning in their lives and find spiritual enlightenment, so that's pretty good.

 

Assuming there is such a thing as a "spirit".

[Frizzle]

Yeah so as long as a couple of old people in Texas find good in what they do, it makes up for the thousands or years of systematic abuse, rape enslavement and murder?

[Tailwind]

Yeah so as long as a couple of old people in Texas find good in what they do, it makes up for the thousands or years of systematic abuse, rape enslavement and murder?

 

I think I love you.

[Mizk]

Religion divides more often than it unites, therefore I believe that a world without it would be better

Alternatively, everyone believing the same religion would accomplish the same thing, but then that would essentially be a world without religion as the "religion" in this case would more be a "fact"

[Galadriel]

Probably posted in this thread already, and if that is the case I am replacing my previous reply with:

 

The world isn't better or worse because of religion. I feel that religion is a way of interacting with the world around us- a lens which we look through. It is when people confuse religion with morals that things start to get messy. As far as I know, no religions preach violence or discrimination as their fundamental principles- religion is only coloured that way by humans who misunderstand the teachings because they are looking it at the wrong way.

 

It is people who fuck up things- not religion.

[wpsiatwin]

It is people who fuck up things- not religion.

 

 

Agreed. Its just like science, economics, gaming etc. 

 

And we see people from different gaming communities bashing each other. Communists bashing capitalists and vice versa. We, as a species, are mighty good at finding things to argue about, in essence our differences.

 

If we could learn to not give a shit about how other people are different from us, it wouldn't matter that they subscribe to a different brand of god. But because we can't, every difference between us creates a divide filled with resentment and conflict. 

 

So, to me, the question being asked is irrelevant. With or without religion, man will still fight amongst man. In the absence of a reason, man will invent one.

[jonis]

As long as religion is an individual belief I can definitely appreciate it. When it tries to tell non-believers what to do, well, then we could do without it.

 

But really, it's Impossible to answer. I can't say that North Korea has done much better without religion that we have with religion. And if people weren't fighting over religion we'd probably fight over something as trivial such as colour of clothes or something.

 

The world would probably be a much better place without man. But then we wouldn't be having this conversation. That, or we would all be some cool-looking animal instead like below.

 

Spoiler

Edited by jonis, 25 June 2014 - 04:26 AM.

[Halcyon]

I'd really like to say without, but either way, the world will always try to find a way to screw itself. 

[Adam]

Revived --

Michigan House Passes Religious 'License To Discriminate' Bill

 

The Religious Freedom Restoration Act, akin to one that made nationwide headlines in Arizona but was vetoed, appears to merely force the government to step aside if a person's "deeply-held religious beliefs" mandate they act, or not act, in a certain manner.

Supporters of these bills claim they allow people of faith to exercise their religion without government interference, but in reality, they are trojan horses, allowing rampant discrimination under the guise of religious observance.

For example, under the Religious Freedom law, a pharmacist could refuse to fill a doctor's prescription for birth control, or HIV medication. An emergency room physician or EMT could refuse service to a gay person in need of immediate treatment. A school teacher could refuse to mentor the children of a same-sex couple, and a DMV clerk could refuse to give a driver's license to a person who is divorced. 

Sawce: http://www.thenewciv...scriminate_bill

 

Kind of stupid don'tcha think?

[Salade]

The basic idea of religion as a guide line how to treat your fellow humans is neat-o. What religious institutions made of those basic rules isn't very neat-o.

 

If you can practice your religion without harming others, if you can practice your lack of religion without harming others, it's all cool.

[vay]

Inconsequential. How easy it is to blame a belief system for the consequences of actions. Religion itself does not make the world better/worse, it is the actions that speak for themselves. I do believe religion is of certain importance, due to the fact that freedom in believing what you want is important and the positive values that many religions incorporate into the people that believe. Religion does not define world peace, wars, great events, bad events, etc. because it is the take that every individual has on his or her beliefs that changes the impact that is made on the world. Sure, religion is an influence on people's actions, but still, we humans have judgement too, a mind and values which dictate our actions, not religion. The world is at the mercy of the human free will more than religion. Religion itself is a concept detached from the person we really are, but again, it depends on the person to apply the values and beliefs of a religion into a positive/negative lifestyle. People can make anything of it.

[hamayun]

If here is no GoD!Then what is Magic who create this world what is tree fruit 🍉 vegetable and evil human animal human complex brain 😇😇

[Eagles]

with!!

[hamayun]

With?

[DogeWow]

For me. Better with religion.

[scornty]

If you define religion as 'unprovable set of beliefs about how the world works that people have', I think whether it should exist/not is a bad question. People will always their beliefs to some extent because they are very easily ignited. There was a study on how pigeons got superstitions from a machine that randomly gave out food. They would walk around/dance around the machine and when the machine hit a certain number it would drop food. So the pigeons made a connection that dancing in a certain way would make the machine drop food, even if it was a bad connection. If it's so easy for connections to be made then humans will find some way for it to continue to exist, or find a way to make a new set of superstitions that become a religion unless you change how brains work fundamentally.

 

Religion is a thing that brings people together, so people want it to exist too which helps. 

[Brandenburg75]

I think religion is definitely beneficial. Coming from a person who grew up in a theistic family who went to a lot of different churches at different times I can say there are a good number of truly awful people who would do terrible terrible things if the imaginary bearded father figure in the sky wasn't "watching" them sin.

 

Yes religion causes problems but as Karl Marx once said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" it help a certain set of people from breaking down as it numbs any number of harsh realities, as well as numbing truly awful people in to a fearful stupor. Good people don't require god in order to be good. Bad people don't require the devil to be bad. But some truly bad people are kept in check by the thought of a final judgement, these bad people are usually mentally unbalanced so actual reality means little to them. 

 

I also think religion is detrimental. People use religion to sway large numbers of ignorant people in to being their pawns. They use it to justify on the personal level decisions that should have nothing to do with religion, and in general grind human progress to a near standstill in some sectors. And worse the bad people from the previous statement use their thousand year old book to justify their own hate and to bolster their own feeling of superiority. In some parts of the world these really old books are even used to justify some truly horrendous things.

 

As for how the scale falls. Only time will tell.

Edited by Brandenburg75, 25 July 2018 - 01:52 PM.

[Buffout]

Agreed. Its just like science, economics, gaming etc. 

 

And we see people from different gaming communities bashing each other. Communists bashing capitalists and vice versa. We, as a species, are mighty good at finding things to argue about, in essence our differences.

 

If we could learn to not give a shit about how other people are different from us, it wouldn't matter that they subscribe to a different brand of god. But because we can't, every difference between us creates a divide filled with resentment and conflict. 

 

So, to me, the question being asked is irrelevant. With or without religion, man will still fight amongst man. In the absence of a reason, man will invent one.

Agree. Good people would  find reasons to do good deeds from religion while bad people would use religion to back-up their behaviors. There's a third case through, in which people being manipulated by the religion. ie. neutral people followed the guidance of the religious people to do good or bad things, not because they want to, but because of some religious reasons.