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#51 Mishelle

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Posted 11 August 2016 - 05:18 PM

As I said before, you are way too close to this. You're reacting with religious fervor in the name of political correctness. 
It was a joke. Fuck.
 
Chances are he's going to interact with people that are not all going to live. If wants to develop a sense of humor to cope with it, leave him be.


Just because you are unaffected by ableism doesn't mean that Coops is wrong for emotionally reacting to it. Idk why you guys continue with this farce that in order for a debate to be valid both sides must be as emotionally detached as possible. It makes no sense .

#52 UnicornSoul

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Posted 11 August 2016 - 05:45 PM

Ok, so I am brainstorming some ideas because I feel that euthanasia should be legal.

 

1.) A Lawyer must be involved.

2.) A counselor must be involved. Counselor must sign off on the procedure.

3.) Videos of the person speaking that they understand what they are about to do, that they fully consent, it is their idea, they are not under any duress etc.

4. )If the person is unable to speak, then the lawyer can read the statement out loud on camera. Then the person can sign on camera.

5.) If the person is deaf, then they can sign their statement. If they cannot move their arms or fingers, then a person can sign in front of he camera and the person and the person can nod for understanding or any kind of knowledge they can do.

6.) Euthanasia must be administered as peacefully as possible.

7.) Mental illnesses or illnesses that cannot be cured, or a disease that can have meds to make things easier but doesn't stop the progression, such as Multiple Sclerosis, should be candidates for euthanasia.

8.) Anything else must be cleared by a physician that overseas the patient and a counselor; both must agree on the decision.

10.) This eliminates the government, all that the government would need to do is pass the bill for it through the Supreme Court.

 

This is just my two cents, for what they are worth. I would totally be lawyer for this as well, but since I am in school for Psychology, I would most likely be a counselor to work on the case. Me personally, I would make sure the case would be handled in a timely manner.

 

Now the issue would be, would insurance cover it or would the family cover it. I think insurance should cover it.


Oh and family of the person should also be counseled to make sure the family isn't trying to do something dirty. Just a precaution. Any euthanasia done without a lawyer and counselor would be deemed illegal and if any steps were skipped, than anyone involved with the process would have done it against the law and can serve jail time for it, maybe prison.



#53 Kaddict

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Posted 11 August 2016 - 05:45 PM

I do get it. But this is not the time or place. It's incredibly inappropriate and if he's thinking that about potential patients? Wow, talk about seriously unprofessional and questionable behavior. 

Not potential. It was my patient. And I didn't think that until I decided to make a snarky remark back to @cara, mostly because I am studying so I don't have the time to engage in the long potential explanation of a deep rooted personality disorder. I would never actually think that about a patient. It is none of your business, but that patient and I connected very well (as med students we have the luxury of spending more time with patients) and I would like to think that I have helped her in her recovery. So in short: "Please don't speak for me. You don't know how I feel. This is an internet forum. You can't see my face, hear my tone, or read my thoughts. You know nothing."

 

 ps. Humor is classified as a mature defense mechanism, I feel like if more people used it, people wouldn't have to rely on the ever so common immature defense mechanisms. 



#54 Coops

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Posted 11 August 2016 - 05:54 PM

I'm going to set this straight @Romy. You seem to be confused and are again, assuming, that you know me or how I will handle this. I am an adult. I will always be nice to you and treat you with respect. You're a human being. Every person, regardless of whatever dumb and illogical opinions they may have (in this case, I don't care if you disagree with euthanasia, it's your presumption that I am simply too close to this that I find rather stupid/illogical), I will always treat you with the decency and respect you deserve. I'm not offended by your opinion. I wasn't even upset, sad, or anything but neutral until you defended Kaddict's gross joke about people with mental illness.

Now I'm just disappointed in your apathy. The issue here seems to be that you're assuming how I communicate is aggressive, and 'with religious fervor of political correctness' (though it's arguable being decent towards those with mental illness has little to do with political correctness and everything to do with just being a nice and decent person). I'm not. I'm communicating my thoughts and insights on a topic, that yes, I am emotionally invested in. Emotions are not always bad in these types of debates. You lack a fundamental component to understand why someone would want to die - experience. That's fine. But it definitely is a blind spot for you, and you seem to think that because I am able to empathize, I am the one with a blind spot. 

Empathy is a positive trait. You don't need to agree with the concept to empathize with someone, or try to feel what could bring a person to finding a casual joke, about how a woman should try harder to kill herself, offensive. I find it odd you claimed killing oneself for mental illness is arbitrary, but you're perfectly okay with an unsightly joke about a living, breathing, feeling woman.

I will not stand for ableist comments that have no place or no value to a debate. It might be humor, but it's still inappropriate in this context. I'm not being absurd, or even politically correct. I asked pretty nicely. The word bullshit was not to illustrate aggression. It's a frequent flyer in my vocabulary. I am sorry you're perceiving my comments the way you are. I can't really fix your perception of my words, all I can do is communicate that my intent is different.

 

I asked that this thread be civil. If we can't keep it that way, I will respectfully ask a moderator to lock the thread.


Not potential. It was my patient. And I didn't think that until I decided to make a snarky remark back to @cara, mostly because I am studying so I don't have the time to engage in the long potential explanation of a deep rooted personality disorder. I would never actually think that about a patient. It is none of your business, but that patient and I connected very well (as med students we have the luxury of spending more time with patients) and I would like to think that I have helped her in her recovery. So in short: "Please don't speak for me. You don't know how I feel. This is an internet forum. You can't see my face, hear my tone, or read my thoughts. You know nothing."

 

 ps. Humor is classified as a mature defense mechanism, I feel like if more people used it, people wouldn't have to rely on the ever so common immature defense mechanisms. 

You say you'd never actually think that about a patient. Then why the joke? If you'd never actually think it, then the joke wouldn't have happened; if it is a defense mechanism for you, then you did think it. Own that. Don't pretend like you didn't do something when everyone here saw you do it. Your actual relationship with her is irrelevant. You completely dehumanized her with that joke, whether you meant to or not. And your words could harm others here, who may have BPD.
 

I know what humor is. And I'm fine with it; I am not fine with it in this context. I'm not going to apologize for not finding a rather disgusting joke funny.



#55 Kaddict

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Posted 11 August 2016 - 05:56 PM

I asked that this thread be civil. If we can't keep it that way, I will respectfully ask a moderator to lock the thread.

 

Seeing as a quick search of threads shows 5+ Euthanasia debate threads, this may not be the worst choice.



#56 Swar

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Posted 11 August 2016 - 06:03 PM

Seeing as a quick search of threads shows 5+ Euthanasia debate threads, this may not be the worst choice.

I disagree. People come and go, and those who stay can often change their mind over a subject, or just become able to express their feelings better. It's perfectly fine to have multiple threads around the same subject - as long as they're not too close in time.

 

At the very least, it encourages activity.



#57 Coops

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Posted 11 August 2016 - 06:03 PM

Seeing as a quick search of threads shows 5+ Euthanasia debate threads, this may not be the worst choice.

This could have been solved. I actually can relate to making an insensitive and distasteful joke. I've done it. We've all done it. You could have said "yeah, I made a joke, it was distasteful, because mental illness makes me uncomfortable and it's hard for me to cope with the personal relationships I form with my patients". Instead, you went on to insult me and further, claim you never said the thing you said. Communicate man. It's not hard. Own your mistakes. 



#58 cara

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Posted 11 August 2016 - 06:07 PM

Wow this turned into a gong show really quick.

 

I know what humor is. And I'm fine with it; I am not fine with it in this context. I'm not going to apologize for not finding a rather disgusting joke funny.

 

Wellp, I know that your original post was directed to Kaddict, but I did respond to him in a similar manner. And that is because I feel entitled to. Because while you get offended, I laugh. I have a father who has both attempted suicide and has excruciating mental health illness and substance abuse issues .. and I have dealt with that every day for the past 22 years. And I feel entitled to make tasteless jokes and laugh at them.

 

But, you are completely right .. not in your thread. And we need to respect that. Because while a lot of us might find it to be simply be a joke, you do not. And this is your thread. And while I will not apologize for laughing at his joke, I respect the fact that you cope with your triggers differently than I do. I laugh, you yell. We both do our own thing.

 

I think at the end of the day though, you're both awesome people and you're out to help people. In your own ways.



#59 UnicornSoul

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Posted 11 August 2016 - 06:13 PM

"But, you are completely right .. not in your thread. And we need to respect that. Because while a lot of us might find it to simply be a joke, you do not. And this is your thread. And while I will not apologize for laughing at his joke, I respect the fact that you cope with your triggers differently than I do. I laugh, you yell. We both do our own thing."

 

This was a bit passive aggressive. I don't think she was yelling at all. She was posing her stance on the situation. She responded passionately. Her passion does not equal yelling. Maybe frustration, which I can understand. You could have left the "I laugh, you yell" part out, which was the passive aggressive statement. And ended with, we both handle this topic differently. That is a more understanding respone if in fact you truly do understand that she copes differently.



#60 cara

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Posted 11 August 2016 - 06:21 PM

"But, you are completely right .. not in your thread. And we need to respect that. Because while a lot of us might find it to simply be a joke, you do not. And this is your thread. And while I will not apologize for laughing at his joke, I respect the fact that you cope with your triggers differently than I do. I laugh, you yell. We both do our own thing."

 

This was a bit passive aggressive. I don't think she was yelling at all. She was posing her stance on the situation. She responded passionately. Her passion does not equal yelling. Maybe frustration, which I can understand. You could have left the "I laugh, you yell" part out, which was the passive aggressive statement. And ended with, we both handle this topic differently. That is a more understanding respone if in fact you truly do understand that she copes differently.

 

You know that you can click the 'Quote' button on the bottom left of posts and it will quote them in a bubble for you, right?

 

Oops, sorry, didn't mean to offend you. Thanks for picking out the one word in my entire post that offended you and ignoring everything else. I appreciate dat right dere. Love it when one word is picked out of context. Dang. I'm glad I put so much effort into writing my entire post. Thanks for your suggestion. Maybe I'll try to consider it. But probably not. Because I was extremely heartfelt in my post and was not trying to be rude when sharing my issues with my father in trying to relate to her issues with whatever is going on with her.



#61 UnicornSoul

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Posted 11 August 2016 - 06:30 PM

You know that you can click the 'Quote' button on the bottom left of posts and it will quote them in a bubble for you, right?

 

Oops, sorry, didn't mean to offend you. Thanks for picking out the one word in my entire post that offended you and ignoring everything else. I appreciate dat right dere. Love it when one word is picked out of context. Dang. I'm glad I put so much effort into writing my entire post. Thanks for your suggestion. Maybe I'll try to consider it. But probably not. Because I was extremely heartfelt in my post and was not trying to be rude when sharing my issues with my father in trying to relate to her issues with whatever is going on with her.

 

Actually it was 4 words. If you're going to be a smart ass... and yes I do know how to quote things... you can go to my profile and look at my topics and posts and see that I clearly do know how. In this instance, I didn't feel like it. You attack peoples point of views and how people go about writing things? Anyways, I don't think you were being completely genuine in 100% of your words.

 

"But, you are completely right .. not in your thread. And we need to respect that. Because while a lot of us might find it to simply be a joke, you do not. And this is your thread. And while I will not apologize for laughing at his joke, I respect the fact that you cope with your triggers differently than I do. I laugh, you yell. We both do our own thing."

 

This was a bit passive aggressive. I don't think she was yelling at all. She was posing her stance on the situation. She responded passionately. Her passion does not equal yelling. Maybe frustration, which I can understand. You could have left the "I laugh, you yell" part out, which was the passive aggressive statement. And ended with, we both handle this topic differently. That is a more understanding respone if in fact you truly do understand that she copes differently.

 

Let's see 153 words minus 4 = 149. 149/153 = .973 1.00-.973= 0.027 so I picked out .027% of your words. If you want to get technical. Bye Felicia.


Edited by Meowish, 11 August 2016 - 06:45 PM.


#62 cara

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Posted 11 August 2016 - 06:37 PM

Actually it was 4 words. If you're going to be a smart ass... and yes I do know how to quote things... you can go to my profile and look at my topics and posts and see that I clearly do know how. In this instance, I didn't feel like it. You attack peoples point of views and how people go about writing things? Anyways, I don't think you were being completely genuine in 100% of your words.

 

 

Let's see 153 words minus 4 - 149. 149/153 = .973 1.00-.973= 0.027 so I picked out .027% of your words. If you want to get technical. Bye Felicia.

 

What? Ok, so you picked out and got offended by 0.027% of my wording? And that's sufficient for you to assume I was being passive aggressive?

 

And you calling me a smart ass and saying 'bye felicia' is not extremely rude?

 

And again, I was letting you know how to quote. I was not trying to be rude. I was genuinely trying to help you. Jesus, what the fuck is your problem with me? Have I done something to hurt you in the past that you assume I'm being rude all the time? I have literally never spoken to you in my life. I had no idea who you were until right now.

 

And to that, I fucking actually know and like Coops which she is well aware of. I have her on goddamn facebook. I obviously wasn't trying to be rude to her. I called her an awesome person at the end of my post. Seriously, what the fuck? Why are you trying to stir shit with me? Do you want to PM me and we can discuss what your issue with me is?



#63 Ladida

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Posted 11 August 2016 - 08:18 PM

My friend's uncle killed himself just yesterday, leaving behind his wife and two little girls.. Hearing his two daughters repeatedly asking "When is papa coming home?" was one of the most heartbreaking things I have ever encountered. Another friend's mother killed herself a few years back, I still remember receiving the call.. My best friend killed himself a few years back as well.. And someone did actually tell him to try harder right before his final successful attempt (as he had tried more than one).. That person felt guilty as Hell, and almost got charged for encouraging him to kill himself. Attempting suicide and assisting someone's suicide are both illegal here, and having prior knowledge of a suicide and not informing authorities apparently falls under the latter. My best friend's parents told the police not to press charges, so he was spared. I have no idea if the charge would have actually stuck though. These situations, especially the latest one, have definitely made me more sensitive to jokes about suicide. I don't expect others to change their behaviour regarding how they approach me regarding this issue, but I do appreciate it very much if they are considerate of my feelings and the current situation. 

 

Just two days ago I saw someone post on Facebook saying that people who want to kill themselves should do it and stop wasting his time (whut). I do deal with depression, and I do find these kinds of statements to be in poor taste, but I don't react strongly to them if they are made by people I don't know. I also get that people react differently and have different types of humour, and since I have no idea who most of the people I talk to online are, I can't judge whether they're joking or not (@Kaddict said he was joking though, the Facebook guy wasn't joking so I blocked him). If I feel disturbed or triggered by something someone has posted, I tend not to read any more of their writing, as I'm likely not emotionally connected with that person anyway and I don't see the point of letting their opinions make me uncomfortable and potentially start a downward spiral. I wasn't disturbed by @Kaddict , as he explicitly stated he was joking, albeit with a dark sense of humour. I disagreed with the #Triggered part though, because this kind of thing really can trigger people, which is why I put a part of my post in spoiler tags. I've also read enough of @cara 's posts to see she's pretty level-headed, and it was clear that her joke was, in fact, a joke.

 

Everyone says "This is the interwebs, everyone should have a thick skin if they want to be on it", but that isn't the case. I agree with @Coops. A bit of empathy goes a long way, as we have no idea whether anyone on Codex is currently vulnerable or not. Most likely, someone is. This doesn't mean we have to be politically correct, but it also doesn't mean we have to be dicks just because we're on the interwebs either. So I can empathize with @Coops for reacting the way she did, because I understand where she's coming from, and I can also empathize with @Kaddict and @cara , because I can understand that people deal with issues differently (in this case, with dark humour). As @Kaddict did state that he would never actually feel that way towards a patient, I will have to take his word for it, but the sad truth is that many people, doctors included, do feel that way about their mental health patients, and treat them as second-class citizens who are unworthy of their time and attention. So if someone is upset because they have encountered a dismissive doctor or person who doesn't respect a patient due to their mental health issues, I can empathize with them too.

 

TL;DR: Be empathetic. The world will be better for it.



#64 Mishelle

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Posted 11 August 2016 - 09:08 PM

My cousin recently killed herself and there's so much stigma against mental health in my family that it often goes undiagnosed and unchecked. We had no idea she was even depressed because she was the type to never want to show her vulnerabilities. She always prided herself on being the strong one who was always willing to take care of everyone around her. Like Ladida said, you never know what anyone is going through and how your words can affect them. It may just be ~political correctness~ to you but I don't think there's such thing as being too invested in things like mental health. Especially in a country where people rarely are able to get the help they truly need and often turn to the Internet to cope.

#65 Romy

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Posted 11 August 2016 - 10:01 PM

I'm gonna try to get this back on track.

I did some research on the "Death with Dignity" act enacted in Oregon state. There are a few points I'd like your opinions on namely @Coops

 

First, @Coops was right. There is a way for patients to gain access to life ending drugs without direct involvement of the government. The method outlined on their site is one I can completely agree with. The points I'd like comments on are below.

 

 


Q: Who can participate in the Act? A: The law states that, in order to participate, a patient must be: 1) 18 years of age or older, 2) a resident of Oregon, 3) capable of making and communicating health care decisions for him/herself, and 4) diagnosed with a terminal illness that will lead to death within six (6) months. It is up to the attending physician to determine whether these criteria have been met.

 

They have a very clear criteria. Do you guys think this specific rule is too limiting?

 

 


If either physician believes the patient's judgment is impaired by a psychiatric or psychological disorder (such as depression), the patient must be referred for a psychological examination;

 

This is the rule I wholeheartedly agree with. This is the point I think should be upheld 100% of the time. 

 

Can someone with impaired judgment decide to end their lives? 



#66 Coops

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Posted 11 August 2016 - 10:18 PM

I'm gonna try to get this back on track.

I did some research on the "Death with Dignity" act enacted in Oregon state. There are a few points I'd like your opinions on namely @Coops

 

First, @Coops was right. There is a way for patients to gain access to life ending drugs without direct involvement of the government. The method outlined on their site is one I can completely agree with. The points I'd like comments on are below.

 

 

 

They have a very clear criteria. Do you guys think this specific rule is too limiting?

 

 

 

This is the rule I wholeheartedly agree with. This is the point I think should be upheld 100% of the time. 

 

Can someone with impaired judgment decide to end their lives? 

Yes. I believe the six month rule is too limiting. Not all disorders and diseases are terminal immediately. But I have chronic pain. I can understand situations where someone without access to appropriate pain management (which is a severe issue in this nation for chronic pain patients at the moment) would want euthanasia. I'd prefer that we dealt with the poor access to pain management, rather than they die, but again, I do understand why they would want to die and it's their body. I believe they should have access to that, if they want it and are ready to stop living in pain.

Yes. I agree. All potential euthanasia candidates should undergo psychological counseling, ideally, practically though... that's a challenge due to lack of resources, insurance, etc. But I don't believe depression or any other psychological disorder can necessarily prevent someone from making an informed choice about euthanasia. And just because someone was depressed, or recovered from any psychological disorder, or is in recovery, doesn't necessarily mean their judgment is impaired. I can understand why people would think so. But I find that view patronizing of those with mental illness.



#67 Romy

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Posted 11 August 2016 - 10:55 PM

Yes. I believe the six month rule is too limiting. Not all disorders and diseases are terminal immediately. But I have chronic pain. I can understand situations where someone without access to appropriate pain management (which is a severe issue in this nation for chronic pain patients at the moment) would want euthanasia. I'd prefer that we dealt with the poor access to pain management, rather than they die, but again, I do understand why they would want to die and it's their body. I believe they should have access to that, if they want it and are ready to stop living in pain.

I disagree. Being in chronic pain is not sufficient enough of a reason to petition for euthanasia. As you stated, we should deal with the poor access to pain management medicine and a way of distinguishing between drug addicts and those truly suffering from chronic pain. I do not view euthanasia as a viable alternative however. I view it as saying, "Well, you aren't gonna get the help you need anyway so we might as well provide the drugs you need to kill yourself." 

We must do everything in our power to better our healthcare system before wasting energy on advocating suicide for people in pain

 

 


Yes. I agree. All potential euthanasia candidates should undergo psychological counseling, ideally, practically though... that's a challenge due to lack of resources, insurance, etc. But I don't believe depression or any other psychological disorder can necessarily prevent someone from making an informed choice about euthanasia. And just because someone was depressed, or recovered from any psychological disorder, or is in recovery, doesn't necessarily mean their judgment is impaired. I can understand why people would think so. But I find that view patronizing of those with mental illness.

 

What is your stance? You said in an ideal world all candidates should undergo counseling but followed up by saying that it isn't practical due to various reasons. Do you think that psychological counseling shouldn't be a requisite for euthanasia? Not trying to be condescending, just understand your position.

 

1) When determining when someone is clinically depressed doctors look for 9 different symptoms; one of which is thoughts of suicide or death. How can you rationally separate thoughts of suicide from depression?

2) Should someone who has a history of bipolar disorder be relied upon to decide something as important as deciding to end their life?

 

 

 

There is no way I can condone medical euthanasia using your extremely loose (and borderline reckless) guidelines. 



#68 Coops

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Posted 11 August 2016 - 11:18 PM

I disagree. Being in chronic pain is not sufficient enough of a reason to petition for euthanasia. As you stated, we should deal with the poor access to pain management medicine and a way of distinguishing between drug addicts and those truly suffering from chronic pain. I do not view euthanasia as a viable alternative however. I view it as saying, "Well, you aren't gonna get the help you need anyway so we might as well provide the drugs you need to kill yourself." 

We must do everything in our power to better our healthcare system before wasting energy on advocating suicide for people in pain

 

 

 

What is your stance? You said in an ideal world all candidates should undergo counseling but followed up by saying that it isn't practical due to various reasons. Do you think that psychological counseling shouldn't be a requisite for euthanasia? Not trying to be condescending, just understand your position.

 

1) When determining when someone is clinically depressed doctors look for 9 different symptoms; one of which is thoughts of suicide or death. How can you rationally separate thoughts of suicide from depression?

2) Should someone who has a history of bipolar disorder be relied upon to decide something as important as deciding to end their life?

 

 

 

There is no way I can condone medical euthanasia using your extremely loose (and borderline reckless) guidelines. 

I don't believe you're really qualified to say that until you're in chronic pain and have been for decades. You don't think it's a good enough reason; but most with chronic pain would argue otherwise and that's not illogical of them, nor is it wrong of them. People are allowed to be done when there is literally no end in sight for them. I don't think you understand the nature of chronic. Generally means 6+ months, and for many patients equals forever. Without appropriate pain management, that means days of 6s, 7s, 8s, 9s and 10s. Days vomiting nonstop because the pain is that bad. Losing 20lbs. Being bedridden. Not having a social life, a job, or a livelihood. I'm not sure why you felt the need to mention drug addicts; since that's not who I am referencing. I think we can advocate for a better healthcare system, better pain management and advocate for people's right to die. These things aren't mutually exclusive.

Are you being intentionally contrarian? Did you read what I wrote? I can say ideally, yes, this is what should happen while acknowledging that the current system we have isn't equip to provide those things. You are being condescending. I already said psychological counseling should be a requisite. Repeatedly, in a few of my posts actually. But I am also criticizing a broken system and admitting that there is a lot of work to do for those that want to live, just as much for those that are ready to die. 

First of all, there is a difference between suicidal ideation and planning. That distinction is incredibly important. A lot of healthy, socially adapted humans have suicidal ideation, or thoughts about it. It's incredibly common. Planning on the other hand, is more consistently found in those with severe depression, but not always. Some depressed people never think about or plan suicide. I can rationally separate these things because I've got a great deal of experience with suicidal people (myself, my sister, others I can't discuss, going into mental health profession, etc). 

Yes they should. Just as everyone should. People with bipolar disorder can have lucid states and make decisions for themselves. 

You're never going to agree with me, or change your mind, or even respect my view and where I'm coming from because you don't 100% believe in bodily autonomy. You don't believe a person should have that degree of self-determination, or you think you know better than a person in chronic pain, or with terminal illness, or whatever circumstances brought them to euthanasia. That's fine. You do you. But you keep jumping to conclusions about what I'm saying and patronizing me, instead of actually addressing what I'm saying. That is frustrating. Have a good night Romy. I'm done with this debate. I've made my thoughts on this clear.



#69 Padme

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Posted 12 August 2016 - 12:22 AM

- Just because you believe in God doesn't mean you think that suicide/euthanasia are sinful or abhorrent; nor do you have to believe that God believes that. As well just because your religion dictates the same thing does not mean you also must align with that tenant. 

    I'm putting that out there because as a teenage who was struggling with my belief system and having been raised religiously by one parent, I thought I had to believe in everything or nothing. 

 

http://www.cnn.com/2...cancer-dignity/

 

http://www.dignityin...sonal-stories/

 

http://www.motherjon...rnia-kevin-drum

 

Maybe a couple sources to read as well as legislation in places where it's already legalized as some light reading for people?

 

 

I think euthanasia should be legal. I don't really think that matters though... you have a right to ones own life. Obviously if ones life can be 'fixed' then we should hopefully try to avoid that.

 

I believe it was @Nymh who said in a previous thread on this sort of topic that suicide isn't selfish and if someone wants to end their life that is their decision. 

 

 

- The whole notion that I can make the choice to end an animals life when it is in permanent pain but a grown adult can't make that choice for them self... i find it interesting. 

 

I really don't have anything to argue or debate, just a few different thought points for people who wanted to reflect more on the topic. idk. 



#70 Romy

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Posted 12 August 2016 - 01:06 AM

I don't believe you're really qualified to say that until you're in chronic pain and have been for decades. You don't think it's a good enough reason; but most with chronic pain would argue otherwise and that's not illogical of them, nor is it wrong of them. People are allowed to be done when there is literally no end in sight for them. I don't think you understand the nature of chronic. Generally means 6+ months, and for many patients equals forever. Without appropriate pain management, that means days of 6s, 7s, 8s, 9s and 10s. Days vomiting nonstop because the pain is that bad. Losing 20lbs. Being bedridden. Not having a social life, a job, or a livelihood. I'm not sure why you felt the need to mention drug addicts; since that's not who I am referencing. I think we can advocate for a better healthcare system, better pain management and advocate for people's right to die. These things aren't mutually exclusive.

Are you being intentionally contrarian? Did you read what I wrote? I can say ideally, yes, this is what should happen while acknowledging that the current system we have isn't equip to provide those things. You are being condescending. I already said psychological counseling should be a requisite. Repeatedly, in a few of my posts actually. But I am also criticizing a broken system and admitting that there is a lot of work to do for those that want to live, just as much for those that are ready to die. 

First of all, there is a difference between suicidal ideation and planning. That distinction is incredibly important. A lot of healthy, socially adapted humans have suicidal ideation, or thoughts about it. It's incredibly common. Planning on the other hand, is more consistently found in those with severe depression, but not always. Some depressed people never think about or plan suicide. I can rationally separate these things because I've got a great deal of experience with suicidal people (myself, my sister, others I can't discuss, going into mental health profession, etc). 

Yes they should. Just as everyone should. People with bipolar disorder can have lucid states and make decisions for themselves. 

You're never going to agree with me, or change your mind, or even respect my view and where I'm coming from because you don't 100% believe in bodily autonomy. You don't believe a person should have that degree of self-determination, or you think you know better than a person in chronic pain, or with terminal illness, or whatever circumstances brought them to euthanasia. That's fine. You do you. But you keep jumping to conclusions about what I'm saying and patronizing me, instead of actually addressing what I'm saying. That is frustrating. Have a good night Romy. I'm done with this debate. I've made my thoughts on this clear.

You're facilitating suicide. You're an idealist and your positions are not pragmatic. You're relying on anecdotal evidence.

 

The first chunk of your counter argument is "YOU NEVER WENT THROUGH THIS SO YOUR THOUGHTS ARE IRRELEVANT". 

Ideation is one of the first things psychologists look for when assessing whether or not someone is at risk of committing suicide. A "healthy, socially adapted" person wouldn't have repeated thoughts of committing suicide. It's bullshit to think so. 

But what would I know? I obviously don't have a "great deal of experience with suicidal people".Fuck me.

 

100% bodily autonomy is INCREDIBLY asinine.Let's explore what that would entail:

  1. People would be able to do all the heroin they want. (That's bad)
  2. People wouldn't be required to wear seatbelts when in a moving vehicle (That's bad)
  3. We wouldn't be allowed to force feed people suffering for extreme anorexia or bulimia (That's REALLY bad)

 

I will not be responding to anything you say in regards to this topic after this. I'm done.



#71 Padme

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Posted 12 August 2016 - 01:20 AM

I'm done with this debate. I've made my thoughts on this clear.

 

 

I will not be responding to anything you say in regards to this topic after this. I'm done.

 

Pretty sure she said she was done with you at the end of her post, so, I don't think there will be anything for you to respond to of hers. 



#72 Mishelle

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Posted 12 August 2016 - 04:21 AM

You're facilitating suicide. You're an idealist and your positions are not pragmatic. You're relying on anecdotal evidence.

The first chunk of your counter argument is "YOU NEVER WENT THROUGH THIS SO YOUR THOUGHTS ARE IRRELEVANT".
Ideation is one of the first things psychologists look for when assessing whether or not someone is at risk of committing suicide. A "healthy, socially adapted" person wouldn't have repeated thoughts of committing suicide. It's bullshit to think so.
But what would I know? I obviously don't have a "great deal of experience with suicidal people".Fuck me.

100% bodily autonomy is INCREDIBLY asinine.Let's explore what that would entail:

  • People would be able to do all the heroin they want. (That's bad)
  • People wouldn't be required to wear seatbelts when in a moving vehicle (That's bad)
  • We wouldn't be allowed to force feed people suffering for extreme anorexia or bulimia (That's REALLY bad)
I will not be responding to anything you say in regards to this topic after this. I'm done.
1. People do all the heroin they want already. Clearly the "just don't do it" form of drug abuse prevention isn't working. Lots of places are changing their methods for this exact reason. Instead, giving heroin users a safe place to do the drug where they are monitored and offering drug rehabilitation if they want it.

2. Not wearing a seatbelt doesn't just affect the person driving. If they fly out their window they become a liability for any person out on the street. It's not bodily autonomy if you put other people in danger in the process.

3. If a person has an eating disorder that has affected them to the point of them having to be force fed, it's not likely that they're in a mental state to make a sound decision regarding medical care. Starvation impairs ones ability to think clearly, coops has stated time and time again that she only believes this should be an option available to those who have gone through counseling and been determined to be lucid, of sound mind, and making the decision for themselves. Clearly that doesn't apply to a person actively suffering from a mental illness and the affects of long term deprivation of food.

These scenarios aren't even close to what a person in chronic pain goes through. Even though they may not be on their death bed, they're also not living. Idk if this has already been posted but a 14 year old girl made the decision to die after being in chronic pain her entire life from an incurable disease. She said when the pain is too much, it's too much.

http://news10.com/20...ecision-to-die/

#73 Coops

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Posted 12 August 2016 - 07:05 AM

1. People do all the heroin they want already. Clearly the "just don't do it" form of drug abuse prevention isn't working. Lots of places are changing their methods for this exact reason. Instead, giving heroin users a safe place to do the drug where they are monitored and offering drug rehabilitation if they want it.
2. Not wearing a seatbelt doesn't just affect the person driving. If they fly out their window they become a liability for any person out on the street. It's not bodily autonomy if you put other people in danger in the process.
3. If a person has an eating disorder that has affected them to the point of them having to be force fed, it's not likely that they're in a mental state to make a sound decision regarding medical care. Starvation impairs ones ability to think clearly, coops has stated time and time again that she only believes this should be an option available to those who have gone through counseling and been determined to be lucid, of sound mind, and making the decision for themselves. Clearly that doesn't apply to a person actively suffering from a mental illness and the affects of long term deprivation of food.
These scenarios aren't even close to what a person in chronic pain goes through. Even though they may not be on their death bed, they're also not living. Idk if this has already been posted but a 14 year old girl made the decision to die after being in chronic pain her entire life from an incurable disease. She said when the pain is too much, it's too much. http://news10.com/20...ecision-to-die/


I saw the story about that girl recently. It's really tragic but I don't blame her. She's not wrong; pain is pain. When it's too much for someone, it's too much. I don't understand the idea that terminal suffering is somehow different than that of chronic suffering due to pain. The symptoms are frequently the same. It's still suffering. One has a relatively quicker end in sight, the other doesn't. I'm glad her family supported her in her decision. It's not something to take lightly.

#74 cara

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Posted 12 August 2016 - 07:42 AM

 I've also read enough of @cara 's posts to see she's pretty level-headed, and it was clear that her joke was, in fact, a joke.

 

I apologize for derailing the topic here (not that I want to stick to the topic and get ganged up on like Romy  :lol2:  :lol2: ) but I just wanted to say thank you, Ladida, for your kind words. I'm glad that not everyone assumes I am being rude right off the bat, it's rather disheartening, especially in response to a post that was rather emotional for me to write out.



#75 Swar

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Posted 12 August 2016 - 07:47 AM

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