122 replies to this topic

[Plew]

well i dont believe in god but i believe in a higher place after u die.

[Gargar]

Yes i belive in God.
The bible contradicts its self?
So the laws in the United states have freedoms like the freedom of speach and punishments like jail. dose that mean our law contraditcs itself?


In my school(Lutheran) we are talking about evolution from a christan perspective, and all that and its acualy quite intresting how many holes are in the theory of evolution. But the funiest thing imo is that evolutionists say that the theory of evolution in no way has to do with the origin of life, they say thats what origin scients do so we will just assume that life was already there. Fossil records are a laugh imo, did you know they did the same testing on rock from Mt. St. Hellens and it said it was Millions of years old even though we know its less then 100 years old?

[Sean]

Yes i belive in God.
The bible contradicts its self?
So the laws in the United states have freedoms like the freedom of speach and punishments like jail. dose that mean our law contraditcs itself?

Pretty much, yes.

I'm not sure if I do.

[Hawk]

Yes i belive in God.

Me too. I really enjoy reading your posts about issues like this Alias.

The bible contradicts its self?
So the laws in the United states have freedoms like the freedom of speach and punishments like jail. dose that mean our law contraditcs itself?

Where does it contradict itself?

[Gargar]

Me too. I really enjoy reading your posts about issues like this Alias.
Where does it contradict itself?

I was refering to someone Alias quoted in his post above mine.

[Ives]

AliasXNeo wrote context for a reason. He probably views it differently than you do.

Oh, and I don't think cancer happens "naturally." There has to be a trigger.

Edited by Sheik Yerbouti, 15 December 2006 - 07:49 PM.

[Hawk]

AliasXNeo wrote context for a reason. He probably views it differently than you do.

Oh, and I don't think cancer happens "naturally." There has to be a trigger.

As a trigger - Isnt there always the possibility that all cancer is caused from human activities?

With all the chemicals we use, the stuff we burn, the things we eat Exposure to UV rays

Edited by Hawk, 15 December 2006 - 07:52 PM.

[zachafer]

yes.
i am 100% christian

[juju`]

If you want to get mean and dirty I'll play the same game with you.

So, if you had a brain, and knew what you were talking about before posting, you would know that the old testament law was the "old covenant". This old covenant was equivalent to the laws we have in United States today, they were what the Jews lived by. When Jesus came and died on the cross, this old covenant was broken, and a new covenant was formed. One that allowed a person to pray for forgiveness, thus releasing the old covenant and releasing the old law.

Now, I suspect you to say "What about the New Testament?" Well, your 5th quote was actually quoting what the Sadducees was quoting to Jesus, which was from the old testament. As you can see, copy/pasting is not a good idea because things are completely taken out of context, and in a mad rush to dismiss the Bible as being decent, many people grab the first flaws they can see without every reading the actual context or doing further research.

Oh, and your other quote from Mark, I don't see anything bad about Divorce being forbidden, I don't see that how reflects any evil at all.

http://www.biblegate...p;version=31;9; I presume that's the new testament, so you even agree with that? If so, you're just as bad as the the guys locked up at you local jail in my opinion. Jesus crusade!

I also need to give you a quick lesson on debate, never, ever, refer to a group of people and make assumptions about something they do. If you want to do this, you need to provide articles of it actually happening, like news articles, otherwise it's dismissed as something you exagerated in your mind to put someone else down, which is exactly what I did with it. Just a little lesson for next time when you post

So, if you had a brain, you'd know to use a spell check on your damned words. - Yep, I'll pick at something you did wrong since you want to play dirty.
I just said what I think & it's what I have to deal with on a daily basis, and it's not exaggerated at all - most Christians do try to push their beliefs on other people.

Maybe I could say that I am an active follower of the "The Matrix" religion? Dammit, that trilogy was a documentary! According to the logic(or lack of) that Christianity goes by The Matrix could actually be real. Remember, there is no spoon.

Another thing, why do people get sent to insane asylums when they think they can talk to Satan(or anything for that matter), but when someone thinks they can talk to God they're just classified as a Christian.

Edited by juju`, 15 December 2006 - 08:57 PM.

[Gargar]

100% Christian? Please...

Just doing a quick reply as I'm going out now, but there is more stuff I wanted to say.

Fully beliveing in Jesus without any doubts? whats wrong with that...

[Ives]

As a trigger - Isnt there always the possibility that all cancer is caused from human activities?

With all the chemicals we use, the stuff we burn, the things we eat Exposure to UV rays

That's what I mean.

[Hydrogen]

If you guys are interested, this is a debate that took place between a Christian and Muslim discussing the 1st century fate of Jesus Christ .

http://www.elitezeni...ideos/20061130/

You can watch it all on YouTube or download the full version onto your computer (about 450mb). It shows the Muslim and Christian perspectives for the fate of Jesus where Christians believe he was crucified and arose from the dead shortly after and Muslims believe he was saved by God before he was crucified and raised to the heavens. The speakers explain their positions and the reasons for why they believe what they do. A pretty good debate in my opinion .

Don't be fooled by the length of the video though because it includes the question and answer session. The actual debate is not too long .

Enjoy

[zachafer]

100% Christian? Please...

Just doing a quick reply as I'm going out now, but there is more stuff I wanted to say.

hahaha well i try...

[zachafer]

lol i believe in Christ and all of the Bible.

[Dretharis]

From the speech I linked you to above, you will find the following "Revelation teaches us that he[man] was created in the image and likeness of God" Explain how, if we were created in the likeness of God, we have such disease, etc. Quite simply, unless you're willing to admit, that God is diseased, or he causes certain people to suffer for no apparent reason (do NOT give me any bullshit about how god works in mysterious ways), or that he has no power to help us one bit.

As to Jesus' suicide/crusifiction. I'll quote the bible: Matthew 26 paragraph 53:
Do you think I cannot appeal to my father, and he will at once send me more than twelve legions of angels.


To me that reads, I have the choice to live, and I choose to die even if it is not my hand that does it. And that is assisted suicide.

Uhh.. Those two interpretations are completely incorrect.

like·ness (līk'nĭs) Pronunciation Key
n.
1. The state, quality, or fact of being like; resemblance.
2. An imitative appearance; a semblance.
3. A pictorial, graphic, or sculptured representation of something; an image.

Taken from websters. The fact that we were made in his likeness doesn't mean that we possess all of his traits, qualities, abilities, etcetera. Infact, the term "likeness" implies that we simply resemble him, and nothing more.

On the second point, where the hell are you getting suicide from? As was stated earlier, the whole point of Jesus existing on earth, according to Christian doctrine, was so he could die for our sins and take our sin burden upon himself. Prior to his death, anyone and everyone who died was sent to hell, as man was imperfect and sinful. You say that it's fallacious to simply use the reason that that was his purpose, but what else is Jesus's entire existance other than Christian belief/prophecy? He was born to teach us, and later take our own sin debt upon his shoulders. The only way he could do this is by dying. Also, as pointed out earlier, it wasn't as if he deliberately sought his own death; there's a difference between seeking it, and not acting to prevent it.

Also, the two athiests arguing seem to keep pointing to religious figures such as the pope and religious fanatics, or events such as religious wars/persecution. The whole point of Christian religion is that man is imperfect, and cannot attain Heaven without the aid of Jesus Christ; if this is the case, why try to point to man's failures as reasons that we're wrong?

[Dretharis]

I interpreted likeness to mean differently than what had already been said - by already saying we took God's image, why say likeness as well. Why repeat something?

And if you'd read the whole topic I've stated twice why I have the idea about suicide, I don't firmly believe it was suicide, but I do after some thought, think it's a definite possibility. To me, because I do not believe jesus died for our sins, I cannot see how choosing to die for our sins isn't suicide, and I have VERY strong views about suicide which is another debate entirely. I cannot see how doing nothing to prevent your immediate death isn't suicide, you're correct in saying that seeking and not preventing are two different things, not preventing is assisted suicide, seeking death is suicide. I simply don't believe Jesus took on all our sin, and allowed us to go to heaven.
Apparently I'm already condemned to hell when I die. That in itself does not inspire confidence in a religion that condemns so easily.
And since I don't intend on repenting for the thing that condemns me, I have little faith in how jesus died for anyone save a few people.
I'd rather he have done all he could as a man on Earth and dying of old age and take our sins with him then. That would be a person I could respect.
Like I say I have strong feelings when it comes to suicide and I have next to no respect for someone who would choose that option unless they were terminally ill.

btw I sincerely hope the two atheists you are talking about does NOT include me. If you are I really suggest you look up the term atheist before using it. It pisses me off that you'd consider me an atheist because I do not believe in Christian religion. That's incredibly arrogant, and just plain incorrect.
Oh and the reason I'd point out about the religious wars, and fanatics is more to point out that while God is deemed to be all powerful, and yet does nothing, every single say. If you are to come back with the reply that God does plenty, then I'd like to know why he picks and chooses the people he answers prayers to and those he disregards.

Things are repeated for emphasis. Why make up a definition? Likeness has no other meaning.

On your second 'point', you're in essence saying that the whole concept of Christianity is wrong. Clearly, we can't argue if you're just going to tell us you don't believe in what you're saying, but that's kind of a shoddy way to make a point when we're trying to argue whether or not Jesus committed suicide or not. If he didn't die for our sins, then we're completely wrong anyway, and citing any source such as the Bible is pointless, isn't it? When speaking of Jesus in Christian terms, I would've assumed it was a given that he had died for our sins. You're talking about an entirely different argument now, and I think there's a link to a debate regarding this earlier in the thread.

You claim that because you're going to hell, you have no faith in the religion. The premise behind it is pretty simple, and it's easy to be saved, as well. Humanity is imperfect, and so can't exist in heaven. However, because Jesus took our sins upon him, we can now go to heaven by having faith in him. You kind of missed the point of Christianity, entirely. I'll capslock it for you. HE DIED FOR EVERYONE. Get it that time? It's been said in the thread before. Everyone, anyone who believes in him, is saved. Doesn't matter if you're a complete asshat in life, you're still saved if you believe in him. God and Jesus aren't condemning anyone; we're simply not good enough to exist in Heaven on our own. Jesus is a way for us into Heaven, for anyone who so choses to desire it. If you ignore him, then hey, it's your own fault. You wouldn't ignore the bus driver an hour, then claim he left you behind when he leaves, would you?

I called you an athiest because your sig was "Logic: My Anti-Religion" when I replied. That does imply athiesm, does it not? If you're going to get offended when I refer to you as an athiest, don't have crap like that in your sig. That's like wearing twenty rainbow buttons with a leather harness, and getting pissed off when I think you're gay. =\ You knew it too, as you deleted your signature. That's pretty immature.

Uhh.. Every single say what? I think you kind of forgot to finish your sentence there. Personally, on the topic of prayer, I don't think he intervenes too much in our daily lives. On certain occasions where it might drasitcally effect mankind, and there are people praying, I think he might jump in, but otherwise it's probably people just attributing their prayers to an average success. It'd be kind of impossible to answer every prayer all the time, considering the fact that many individuals conflict in their desires.

EDIT: Crap, my fault, just realized that was someone else's sig when I read it from his post Sorry about that, my mistake.

Edited by IrregularInsight, 19 December 2006 - 09:49 AM.

[Dretharis]

Found here. Strange how character comes into it when that's personality and nature is about your behaviour, when you're trying to say it only means image. Personally since image has already been said I'd go with likeness meaning character/nature rather that a repeat of what had already been said

You're saying that the Bible isn't allowed to use synonyms when it's explaining something? That's a fairly common speaking technique. It's commonly accepted that the meaning intended was image/likeness, not behavior.

Ok you don't ever have to believe in something to argue it. I study law and I intend on becoming a lawyer although not a court lawyer. I will still very likely argue throughout my entire life over things I don't actually believe in nor care about much, how is this any different? All through University (even high school) you're assigned essay topics you may have no feelings one way or another, but you will argue one side purely for arguments sake and you will need to come across as believing in that topic or get low marks.. This is no different. I found out it a thought provoking point that jesus' death can in fact be seen as a suicide, even if I don't completely believe it myself

Again, you missed what I was saying. What you're going after now is an entirely different argument. It's kind of difficult to only argue about the meaning of Jesus' action, when you completely disagree on his major purpose in life. You're taking one part of the Bible, and assuming it's true, and disregarding the rest of it as probably false. If you assume that he wasn't the Son of God, and didn't heal anyone or die for our sins, why assume that he sought out the soldiers and was killed? Either argue assuming it's true, argue assuming it's false, or provide evidence that one portion is false and the other true.

Think about it this way although I'm probably going to get flamed for saying it but oh well - a suicide bomber (notice I didn't say terrorist because I am not implying this person is killing any civilians in the process of bombing) - dies for religion, for a higher purpose, to help get a message across and to guarantee a spot in heaven in their eyes. Jesus, dies for religion sake, walking up to soldiers he knew would condemn him to death and does nothing to prevent his death.
I'm having some trouble distinguishing the two really. Apart from the possibility the bomber could hurt others, like I've said, plenty of wars have been over religion, and innocent people hurt in the process. No different that a suicide bomber accidentally or purposely killing someone in the name of religion.
Again, just something to think about.

Uh, you said it yourself. The bomber hurts others, and IF we were to assume that Jesus was seeking his own death, then Jesus was still only hurting himself. I'm sorry, but trying to say that hurting others is the same as hurting yourself is a joke of an argument. And, quibbling here, you ignored the fact that I pointed out that he didn't seek out the soldiers, they apprehended him =O

Yeah, I am saying I have little faith in religion since even thought I know I'm a good person, I'll still be going to hell because I will never repent or regret having sex before marriage. Simple as that. I'm condemned to go to hell, and honestly, if I were to still believe in a religion that tells me I am going to suffer my entire after-life, I'd have to hate myself to inflict that kind of punishment upon myself.

..What the hell does having sex before marriage have to do with this? All you have to do is have faith in Jesus, to forgive your sins. "Good" is a relative, subjective term. Tribes in Africa even today, for example, think it's a "good" thing to rape young virgins, even babies AFAIK, as a home remedy for AIDS. Does that sound very good to you? When it comes down to it, all of us, every single person, has offended or hurt someone else is some way, at some point in their life. No one's perfect. No one's being condemned, as I said. You're simply choosing to go to hell for not believing, when you have the information and option to put faith in Christ. It's not like you're locked out for saying "no" now either.

I've said before why I have misconceptions about what ensures you're going to hell due to a few people in my life who've lead me to believe if I did anything wrong without repenting, I'd go to hell.
Oh and the fact of the matter is, there's actual proof Jesus of Nazareth existed, I am not disputing that one bit. I'm also very sure he was a great man who did many good things for people and inspired many people. However, I'm probably never going to be sold on the idea that he was the son of God, that he could heal, and he died for everyone. Quite simply I'm a science based person and until I see proof of those things, I won't be believing in those claims.

Ever study logic? It's fallacious to assume something is false because you have no evidence that it's true. And you're admitting now they're misconceptions, so drop them and stop trying to use them as points in your arguments.

Like I asked before, why does he get to pick and choose what prayers are answered and what ones are irrelevant. Surely if we were heading towards destroying the entire world, that can be put down to man being imperfect and shouldn't be stopped.
So tell me, why is it that God decides to allow entire countries to suffer through war, others to have the majority population to live in disgusting conditions way below the poverty line? How does that not effect mankind? Screwed up way to pick and choose what prayers to answer and which to ignore.

Reread my last point on prayer. There's probably a huge conflict in prayers between say, Iran and the United States, is there not? It'd be impossible to answer both, so he probably doesn't really answer either, or if he does so it's extremely subtle and over time. My guess, anyway, but there's really no way to answer that without guessing. I could just as well ask you to disprove that prayer is ineffective in causing miracles, in the cases of people who did pray =O Have fun researching that, or drop the point.

And yeah, I am in no way close to an atheist, I'd have to believe in nothing at all to be an atheist and to be honest, that's a incredibly hard thing to do - there aren' that many people who actually believe in nothing, the term atheist is overused for people who don't believe in a specific religion.
And actually, even if I did have 'L|O|I|G|I|C - My anti-religion' in my sig, that still would not mean I'm an atheist, it would simply mean I'm not religious. Which I'm not. I have beliefs, but they are my own, not what someone has told me to believe. I have conceptions of a god, souls, spirits, death, life, what's right and wrong, and the paranormal. But they are not a religion, purely my beliefs.

Actually, there are quite a few people who believe in nothing. Ever heard of Nationstates? Great forum, but around half of 'em are Athiest Elitists who hate the US with a passion =O Let's head to websters again, shall we?

re·li·gion –noun 1.a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.
Nothing about groups there. Religion refers to any belief or faith, whether personal or popular. You're thinking of Organized Religion™ =O If you're anti-personal belief or faith regarding the creation of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, wouldn't that likely make you an Athiest? Hell, Athiesm could even be considered a Religion of sorts, but I wouldn't in normal discussion/debate.

[Frizzle]

I don't believe in God, in my eyes you can prove he exists.

[Hydrogen]

I don't believe in God, in my eyes you can prove he exists.

did you mean can't instead of can?

[Frizzle]

Erm...yea. Silly typo.

[Tim]

No sir.

[cara]

No.
Not really. I think there might be some form of a 'god' but .. Iuno. Just not as everyone else assumes he is. Not so much a god rather then a higher thing with a larger purpose. No hell or after life or anything. No creater. No luck or karma. >_>

But I believe in faith and stuff of that nature. But as if some things are just .. meant.
-shrugs-
My beliefs and theories are all screwed up. I dont know what I believe in. But I know what I dont.

Edited by cara, 21 December 2006 - 01:43 PM.

[nox]

don't really care to be honest, even if there was proof of a god i'm not sure i would do much ; dont really feel the need for "a god in my life". but if i have to pick, na dont believe in god

[Waser Lave]

No, i don't need a crutch to deal with life thanks.