Quantcast

Jump to content


Photo

Did time have a beginning?


  • Please log in to reply
90 replies to this topic

#51 Nova John

Nova John
  • 126 posts

Posted 15 March 2007 - 12:35 AM

OK...... where to begin?

Time dilation is in fact about perception. Archangel is right. Someone traveling near the speed of light perceives time at the same rate us slower mortals do. BUT this is because everything around the speeding person is smaller, due to length contraction. To the person, everything is as big as it always was, to us, they shrank. ALSO the person moving at speed perceives US as moving, not themselves, and sees US shrink. There is no method for either party to identify whom is ACTUALLY moving, a third party is required for this.

Energy conservation must always exist. If not, then the same event that caused the big bang would wipe out all matter. But even this is conservation, because the net energy change is zero! Suns explode all the time, so why do you insist that the big bang was the creation of energy? The big bang was more likely the explosion of a Super Sun, causing a chain fusion reaction creating a universe full of matter.

FINALLY, Archangel, kinetic energy cannot exist of its own accord. That requires empty space to move, meaning that energy is not bound to matter, meaning this "free" energy could be harnessed as a limitless power supply. It has been proven that there is no such thing as free energy. Chemical energy is part of matter (food for example), so CAN exist of its own accord. (unlike kinetic, gravitational and elastic)

These are the facts used to form my theory about the universe, and since energy conservation must apply, perhaps time (bound by the existence of our universe) loops through the cycle of a massive sun exploding and reforming (much like the air returns to the center of a nuclear blast, resulting in the mushroom cloud). So in my opinion, time never began, it just always was, is and will be, and perhaps we get a second try.

Edited by Nova John, 15 March 2007 - 12:37 AM.


#52 ArchAngel.

ArchAngel.
  • 991 posts

Posted 15 March 2007 - 06:01 AM

The Big Bang is defined as the formation the universe into what we see it today. The process of the Big Bang goes to show that no mass existed whatsoever before the big bang occurred. Therefore, it was pure energy.
Maybe there could have been a form of energy like a massless plasma dot floating around in nothing, but then again, plasma does have a mass since it's a form of matter.
What I'm saying is that by definition mass did not exist, therefore chemical potential did not exist and gravitiation/elastic potential didn't exist, so by definition. It must have been kinetic. That's all that's left.
Don't worry, I'm willing to change my mind once another form of energy is discovered. smile.gif

#53 Shadowcode

Shadowcode
  • 238 posts

Posted 17 April 2007 - 12:50 PM

What human beings think time as, is simple. The duration between one point and another.

This IS does through motion as ArchAngel. has said. This however means nothing if we cant understand everything.

-Shadowcode

PS:

Why did Einstein die without finishing his lifes work.....it would have made our lives easier. lol

#54 Zeeky

Zeeky
  • 410 posts

Posted 20 April 2007 - 09:05 PM

As I see it, it couldn't have a beginning, and it won't have an end. You can't just stop time like you can stop a stop watch, whether you destroy everything or not it is still there. And like that, you can't create time, it isn't an object. I'm not sure about how it just keeps going, maybe it does loop, or something of the sort, my brain is too tiny haha.

#55 redlion

redlion
  • I don't exist!

  • 12072 posts


Users Awards

Posted 20 April 2007 - 09:14 PM

In the words of Stephen Hawking, asking if Time began is like "... Asking what is north of the North Pole." Its just irrelevant.

#56 Shadowcode

Shadowcode
  • 238 posts

Posted 21 April 2007 - 10:24 AM

The final thought, for me at least, is that we as humans will never know.

We haven't been able to even get past the moon with a human, and we ask questions which we cant even start to explain.

#57 Sweeney

Sweeney
  • 1230 posts


Users Awards

Posted 21 April 2007 - 12:21 PM

QUOTE(Shadowcode @ Apr 21 2007, 07:24 PM) View Post
The final thought, for me at least, is that we as humans will never know.

We haven't been able to even get past the moon with a human, and we ask questions which we cant even start to explain.

We could easily get past the Moon... it's coming back that's the problem.
And the main limitation is money, not intelligence.

Furthermore, as far as I'm concerned, the moment humans stop asking questions about things we do not understand is the moment we cease to live.

#58 Shadowcode

Shadowcode
  • 238 posts

Posted 21 April 2007 - 06:49 PM

QUOTE(Sunscorch @ Apr 21 2007, 12:21 PM) View Post
We could easily get past the Moon... it's coming back that's the problem.
And the main limitation is money, not intelligence.

Furthermore, as far as I'm concerned, the moment humans stop asking questions about things we do not understand is the moment we cease to live.


Exactly. We live only for about 80 years, then we die. This short life span stops us from doing a lot of things.

#59 Tim

Tim
  • 2795 posts

Posted 21 April 2007 - 07:01 PM

It has to start somewhere.
I can't back it up with scientific data or religious bullshit, but everything has to have a beginning.

#60 Tim

Tim
  • 2795 posts

Posted 21 April 2007 - 08:25 PM

Eh, I was never a good debater. tongue.gif
I just can't understand how anything could be going on forever and ever.
There has to be some point where it started at.

#61 Shadowcode

Shadowcode
  • 238 posts

Posted 22 April 2007 - 07:05 AM

The real problem lies int he fact, we really don't know what time itself is. We cant answer whether it had a beginning if we don't even really know what it is.

Time is something w generated within us, and we take it to be a measurable....thingy. Time does not exist in my eyes, it is simple a figment of the imagination.

#62 Jaf

Jaf
  • 1654 posts

Posted 22 April 2007 - 07:10 AM

Time does not have a beginning nor an end.
Unlike the metric system unsure.gif

#63 sonic

sonic
  • 3452 posts

Posted 22 April 2007 - 04:04 PM

Eh.
Damn.
Pity I just saw this topic.
I could have yelled at a lot of people for being wrong.....

The Physics behind time is so complicated its almost dumb to try and comprehend... But here it goes...

Time is RELATIVE. Meaning it is measured by the observer. Someone on a tower will age faster than someone on the ground because Gravity has a profound influence on time.....

Anyway, for those who said the Big Bang theory does not support a cause for the creation of time, you are 100% wrong. Time is a single interchangeable entity, formally with Space. Now before the Special Theory of Relativity it was believed that time was static and did not change anywhere. But that was proven wrong by the Energy to mass formula. (E=mc2 Energy = Mass times the speed of light(330,000 miles per second) squared ) The Implications of Einstein's Relativity theory is that Space and Time are not separate but interchangeable.

Now the Theory of Relativity cannot be used for the Big Bang, because at the beginning there was a singularly and at a singularly, known laws of physics do not apply.
Think if it this way. Time is a net. A 3d net graph...... Damn I am really bad at explaining this to other people.....

For the layman's explanation of time see Hawking's "A Brief History on Time"

#64 sonic

sonic
  • 3452 posts

Posted 22 April 2007 - 09:14 PM

QUOTE(Josh @ Apr 22 2007, 08:36 PM) View Post
Well, first of all I will NEVER read anything by Hawking, it's so biased it's not even remotely funny.

Anyways, I didn't understand anything in that post tongue.gif You said Einsteins theory proved the interchangeability of space and time, but I didn't see time in the equation. I agree that time is not subjective, and that it is observed, but the observer is not require for time to exist. I'm interested in seeing how time was created by the Big Bang though, that sounds pretty contradictory to me. If you can point me to any credible articles explaining this that would be helpful smile.gif



As for this part "but the observer is not require for time to exist" check any Paper on the Copenhagen Interpretation of Quantum Mechanics. It is a fun topic to read about.

"time was created by the Big Bang"
It all comes down to the "grand unified theory of everything", or more likely called the The Quantum Theory of Gravity. "Broadly speaking, scientists envision that there will be no mention of time and space in the basic equations of the sought-for framework. And yet — just as clear, liquid water emerges from particular combinations of an enormous number of H20 molecules — time and space as we know them would emerge from particular combinations of some more basic, though still unidentified, entities." -Scott Teresi
There is an interesting theory. Assuming you are current on the studies of a little thing called Dark matter, you can see how time could be an entity, that could be part of the missing mass in the Universe.

Oh and about Hawking.
Get your facts straight. He is biased twords EVIDENCE.
Ever heard of Hawking's radiation.........
His Mistake there, caused the physics world to realize loop quantum gravity.

Do yourself a favor.
Read some Planckian inspired reading.
Learn what its all about.
Non of that Discovery channel physics.

#65 sonic

sonic
  • 3452 posts

Posted 22 April 2007 - 10:00 PM

QUOTE(Josh @ Apr 22 2007, 09:44 PM) View Post
Yeah, still not getting through. I think of time on the scale of things like logical absolutes, in which I have not yet seen science explain. Things like A cannot be both A and B at the same time. The rule is always true, and does not rely on the human mind. It's also transcendent.



See, you just admitted your own fault. "I think of time on the scale........".
Don't use your common sense. The confines of time is not something we experience everyday, therefore the rules and laws do not make sense.

I will borrow an example from the late QED (quantum electro-dynamics) Physicists Richard Feynman. Think of Newtonian laws. If a doorknob is closer to the hinges of a door, then it will be harder to open than if it was in its normal location. This is common sense. We understand this because we deal with it on a daily bases. When dealing with physics, there cannot be any common sense. Feynman is saying that things can " be both A and B at the same time". Read about the Uncertainty Principle. Read about the wave-particle duality implications. All blow your mind because it does not make sense. How can light be a wave when you measure for a wave and be a Particle when you measure it as a particle. How can a photon be in one place, and be in another place at the same time, interfering with itself. All these break common sense to pieces.

Hope that helped.

QUOTE(Nova John @ Mar 15 2007, 12:35 AM) View Post
OK...... where to begin?

Time dilation is in fact about perception. Archangel is right. Someone traveling near the speed of light perceives time at the same rate us slower mortals do. BUT this is because everything around the speeding person is smaller, due to length contraction. To the person, everything is as big as it always was, to us, they shrank. ALSO the person moving at speed perceives US as moving, not themselves, and sees US shrink. There is no method for either party to identify whom is ACTUALLY moving, a third party is required for this.

Energy conservation must always exist. If not, then the same event that caused the big bang would wipe out all matter. But even this is conservation, because the net energy change is zero! Suns explode all the time, so why do you insist that the big bang was the creation of energy? The big bang was more likely the explosion of a Super Sun, causing a chain fusion reaction creating a universe full of matter.

FINALLY, Archangel, kinetic energy cannot exist of its own accord. That requires empty space to move, meaning that energy is not bound to matter, meaning this "free" energy could be harnessed as a limitless power supply. It has been proven that there is no such thing as free energy. Chemical energy is part of matter (food for example), so CAN exist of its own accord. (unlike kinetic, gravitational and elastic)

These are the facts used to form my theory about the universe, and since energy conservation must apply, perhaps time (bound by the existence of our universe) loops through the cycle of a massive sun exploding and reforming (much like the air returns to the center of a nuclear blast, resulting in the mushroom cloud). So in my opinion, time never began, it just always was, is and will be, and perhaps we get a second try.



By the way.
This is a bunch of bullshit.
A little fact, mixed in a bunch of crud.
Stay away from the science channel physics specials.

#66 sonic

sonic
  • 3452 posts

Posted 22 April 2007 - 10:10 PM

QUOTE(Sunscorch @ Mar 12 2007, 06:53 PM) View Post
Um... you do know that the theory of relativity (either of them) has nothing to do with differing perceptions of time, right?
Basically, you're spouting bullshit, my friend. 13.8 billion years is roughly the accepted age of the universe, not 25 trillion.
Just because humans have the need to apply their own constructs to a constant, does not mean that the constant does not exist on a fundamental level.

Oh, and motion is not a change in energy, either. Only acceleration requires a change in energy.


Wow.
Joe just owned arch.
Arch, you just need to stop with the BS.
Anyone can run around with basic understanding of the theory of relativity.
go away


QUOTE(Shadowcode @ Apr 17 2007, 12:50 PM) View Post
Why did Einstein die without finishing his lifes work.....it would have made our lives easier. lol


Meaning the grand theory of everything?
It was because of his religious preference.
"God does not play dice"
He spent the rest of his life trying to prove Plank wrong.
He hated the idea of Quantum mechanics.

QUOTE(Nova John @ Mar 15 2007, 12:35 AM) View Post
Energy conservation must always exist.

just as a little giggler. Do you know why.............

#67 ArchAngel.

ArchAngel.
  • 991 posts

Posted 23 April 2007 - 05:30 AM

QUOTE(Sonic @ Apr 22 2007, 11:10 PM) View Post
Wow.
Joe just owned arch.
Arch, you just need to stop with the BS.
Anyone can run around with basic understanding of the theory of relativity.
go away

Yeah, you need to shut it. If you can go around saying the Theory of Relativity as nothing to do with the implications of the relativity of time, then go die. A "consequence" of the theory of relativity is time dilation, therefore, time MUST be relative.

Second, space and time is not interchangeable. Nothing in the Theory of Relativity assumes that. It merely assumes they are at a merged existence per the space-time continuum, which is merely used as a comprehensive example.
Time didn't have a beginning, because the existence of energy merely implies it. Go read the "Big Bang" Theory. It doesn't state the universe was created from a pinpoint of nothing, it was created by energy that previously existed.

By the way, up there it was singularity not singular...



#68 Sweeney

Sweeney
  • 1230 posts


Users Awards

Posted 23 April 2007 - 06:16 AM

QUOTE(Shadowcode @ Apr 22 2007, 03:49 AM) View Post
Exactly. We live only for about 80 years, then we die. This short life span stops us from doing a lot of things.

That's not what I meant blink.gif
Never mind... x_X

#69 sonic

sonic
  • 3452 posts

Posted 23 April 2007 - 06:17 AM

QUOTE(ArchAngel. @ Apr 23 2007, 05:30 AM) View Post
Yeah, you need to shut it. If you can go around saying the Theory of Relativity as nothing to do with the implications of the relativity of time, then go die. A "consequence" of the theory of relativity is time dilation, therefore, time MUST be relative.



Did you read any of my posts?
I think I said time is relative.
Wow. Smarty.

#70 Sweeney

Sweeney
  • 1230 posts


Users Awards

Posted 23 April 2007 - 06:23 AM

QUOTE(Josh @ Apr 23 2007, 07:03 AM) View Post
I'll check it out. Seems interesting, assuming that's true you can break a lot of current theories with it. I would like to see the law of non-contradiction proven wrong though, it would defeat the purpose of debating.

Wave-particle duality is a scientifically accepted fact.
It is generally accepted as the entire basis for the fusion in the Sun. Without the principle of w-p duality, and probability waves, the Sun could not continue to exist at its current rate of energy output.

#71 Sweeney

Sweeney
  • 1230 posts


Users Awards

Posted 23 April 2007 - 07:28 AM

QUOTE(Josh @ Apr 23 2007, 02:29 PM) View Post
I don't understand your point. Are you trying to prove the law of non-contradiction wrong?

That depends on what the "law of non-contradiction" is...

#72 Sweeney

Sweeney
  • 1230 posts


Users Awards

Posted 23 April 2007 - 09:32 AM

An apple is both an apple and a fruit...

It is only an unfounded sense that tells us wave-form and particle-form are mutually exclusive.

#73 Sweeney

Sweeney
  • 1230 posts


Users Awards

Posted 23 April 2007 - 10:48 AM

I know exactly what you meant.
But it is only common sense that tells us that a particle cannot be a wave at the same time. And common sense is inapplicable in circumstances where we have little to no direct knowledge, such as subatomics.

#74 pyke

pyke
  • 13686 posts


Users Awards

Posted 23 April 2007 - 11:45 AM

Time began when man created the concept. Nyah tongue.gif

#75 ArchAngel.

ArchAngel.
  • 991 posts

Posted 23 April 2007 - 03:06 PM

QUOTE(Sonic @ Apr 23 2007, 07:17 AM) View Post
Did you read any of my posts?
I think I said time is relative.
Wow. Smarty.

Wow, then don't say I got owned. In that quote, Sun said time wasn't relative...
Smarty...
Get the context. dry.gif

QUOTE(Sunscorch @ Apr 23 2007, 07:23 AM) View Post
Wave-particle duality is a scientifically accepted fact.
It is generally accepted as the entire basis for the fusion in the Sun. Without the principle of w-p duality, and probability waves, the Sun could not continue to exist at its current rate of energy output.

w-p duality?

I thought the Sun merely existed on fusion of H/He atoms. Some matter in the process disappears and is converted into energy, per Einstein's equation, E = mc^2

Wp duality applies mainly to photons.
With this basis, I've heard it applies to matter, ie, an electron having a wavelength, but I never understood that concept entirely, since I've never heard of constructive/destructive interference between colliding matter. :X Is that spontaneous combustion? Doesn't sound like it...

W/e, ignore me. All of that was just a rant, speculation. smile.gif

-edit-
Also...
QUOTE
An apple is both an apple and a fruit...

You can't do that. blink.gif Ever read Language and Thought in Action?
Yes, I know. It's reallllyyy lame, but it was an English book I had to read.
Well, it talks about the uncared for rules of language, and how you can/should only define things with a more specific word.
It's actually a pretty good read, especially for it's being about language.

Edited by ArchAngel., 23 April 2007 - 03:11 PM.



0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users