103 replies to this topic

[Sweeney]

I think we deserve a special law so that we at least aren't killed for being gay. I'm not even asking for the same rights as you anymore, because frankly, I'm terrified after reading stuff like this that someone wants to kill me for being gay. So, screw marriage, screw adoption, I want to stay alive.

You didn't answer the question... why do you think gay people deserve to have more legislation on their side in case of an attack than anyone else? Why should the attack of a gay person be more severe than the attack of a straight person?

[Stryyp]

I think we deserve a special law so that we at least aren't killed for being gay. I'm not even asking for the same rights as you anymore, because frankly, I'm terrified after reading stuff like this that someone wants to kill me for being gay. So, screw marriage, screw adoption, I want to stay alive.

My question is if they are already going to kill you, haven't have already thrown the law out the window? And I know someone brought this up before, but I don't think "The punishment being greater if the victim is gay will deter them" is a very good argument. If they are willing to go so far as to kill them, I am confident they won't stop just because they will spend more time in prison

Edited by HydroLink64, 22 March 2007 - 05:29 PM.

[Nick]

Maybe now that you've heard it from Kitsune, you'll actually see where I'm coming from rather than just say that I am whining.

[Sweeney]

Maybe now that you've heard it from Kitsune, you'll actually see where I'm coming from rather than just say that I am whining.

But that isn't what you're saying at all... you're not saying "for any reason, be it sexuality, race or whatever"

You are specifically individualising gay people, and I still don't understand why you think gay people should get more comprehensive protection than anyone else.

[Nick]

I think if a person commits a crime that has substantial evidence of being a hate crime, the punishment should be worth. If a black man and a white man are fighting and there is no evidence of racism, the fight should be treated without any reference to race.

[Waser Lave]

So if somebody kills a child for no good reason, and another kills a gay person because they are homophobic, you're saying that the second should get a worse punishment?

[Nick]

So if somebody kills a child for no good reason, and another kills a gay person because they are homophobic, you're saying that the second should get a worse punishment?

Two very different cases. The muder of a minor, as far as I know, is a far worse punishment then a hate crime.

[Waser Lave]

Fine, how about a 35 year old husband and father of two young children? How does his murder deserve a lesser punishment?

[Nick]

Laser, it all depends on the entire situation, you're giving specific examples that might not be known at the time of the murder whereas hate crimes are done for a specific reason, discriminatory behavior. Why do you keep at this?

[Waser Lave]

Laser, it all depends on the entire situation, you're giving specific examples that might not be known at the time of the murder whereas hate crimes are done for a specific reason, discriminatory behavior. Why do you keep at this?

Because punishing 'hate crimes' more severely than other crimes of the same nature goes against the principles of proportionality...punishments should be based upon culpability, not on a specific bias placed for a group of people. Yes, this may mean that many 'hate crimes' are punished more harshly than crimes of the same nature, but it definitely should not be across-the-board. Law already punishes people based on their motives (hence we have different levels of murder, first-degree, second-degree, manslaughter etc), so there is no need for extra laws to 'protect' gay people (or anybody else).

If somebody leaves their house intent on killing somebody because, for example, they are gay. Then yes, they should be harshly punished because they went out with that specific motive to kill somebody. However I think that this crime deserves no lesser punishment than somebody who just goes out to kill somebody because they want to for whatever reason. They both have a motive to kill a person at the end of the day, and the victim's sexuality should not alter the verdict. Also, wouldn't you be punishing a person for their views and beliefs? No matter how wrong you or I might think they are, everybody is entitled to their own beliefs and to punish them for their beliefs would be against the first amendment I believe aswell as the UDHR, Magna Carta etc.

Then there's also the discussion about how you prove that a crime is a 'hate crime' or not or even how we actually define 'hate crimes'. Most violent crimes are probably reactionary so therefore things are going to be said which otherwise wouldn't as people lose control of themselves, just because somebody calls somebody a name in the heat of the moment doesn't make it a 'hate crime' in my opinion. Although if somebody goes around bombing synagogues or putting burning crosses in people's gardens then of course they deserve a more severe punishment, however these are the vast minority.

[bjquick]

its sad about how that man was killed but tbh i think there shouldnt be hate laws. If u bitch about something majority of ppl are gonna go against it, its like the teacher at school telling every1 to not litter the majority of students will keep littering. If there werent worse laws for hate crimes i think there would be less hate crimes. Everyone is asking to be judged the same so they should be judged the same in court, weather for worse or for better. I have been ripped off a little for being lebanese but i keep it more in the dark. And your always gonna get picked on in the world as long as there are still dickheads left in the world.

[Nick]

its sad about how that man was killed but tbh i think there shouldnt be hate laws. If u bitch about something majority of ppl are gonna go against it, its like the teacher at school telling every1 to not litter the majority of students will keep littering. If there werent worse laws for hate crimes i think there would be less hate crimes. Everyone is asking to be judged the same so they should be judged the same in court, weather for worse or for better. I have been ripped off a little for being lebanese but i keep it more in the dark. And your always gonna get picked on in the world as long as there are still dickheads left in the world.

A black man is abducted, chained to a pickup truck and dragged to his death. A gay teenager is struck with a pistol, kidnapped, harassed and tortured, and left to die in a cold Wyoming countryside during Winter. A Jewish woman is beaten, raped, left near death, with swastikas slashed across her back.

Crimes like these, hate crimes, are necessary so that enhanced penatlies are the result of crimes motivated by extreme bias. The majority agrees that these laws are absolutely essential to ensure that justice is served within the courts. So far I've seen aminly critics of hate crime legislation on the board, saying that these laws would only give swpecial treatment to some victims because of their status. Your arguments fail in many aspects, one of which is your misunderstanding of how hate-crime legislation is actually put into practice. These laws don't just protect specific groups- Jews, blacks, gays, etc - but all citizens based on traits that all citizens posses - religion, race, and orientation. This being said, a hate-crime against a heterosexual would be included under hate-crime protections (not should, they actually are) as seriously as those that victimize their opposites, homosexuals.

To say that they deserve the same punishment as a person who committed an unbiased crime goes against the judicial system that is currently in place in the United States. Since it is the motive behind the act of crime that makes the dsitinction and defines hate crime and not specifically the characteristics of the victim, taking the motive into account while determining the sentence for a felon is a long established aspect of the criminal justice process.

Another large misunderstanding is that hate crimes are infrequent and usually are not serious. Wrong. In fact, in 1997 there were hate crimes exceeding the eight thosands that were reported to the FBI, and it is highly suspected that there were over fifteen thousand total. These large numbers are representative of the problems of discrimination and the increase of bias motivated criminal activity. The most disturbing aspect is that before today a hate crime was characterized as little fistfights and perhaps a burning of religious symbols, but today it isn't uncommon for them to be classified by torture and murder.

The reason for creating laws is to preserve the society we worked so hard to build, but when people do not obey said laws no ones must be made. Nothing can be more threatening to the general morals this country was founded on then crimes of hatred and prejudice.

[Chris]

Well, there are laws that say hate crimes are illegal. That's all that can be done, it would not be fair for jews, african americans, muslims, or fat people if gays got their own laws protecting them. People are killed for what they believe in all the time. People are killed at basketball games because they are cheering on their team, everyone knows about the little bit of slavery that still exists in the united states, and everyone knows that people are killed over everything! It just isnt fair or practical to protect gays. People are made fun of, people are killed. Laws don't really ALL THAT MUCH stop anything. I know you like to voice your oponion, and it's a good thing but some of your arguments blow up in your face because of they way you put it. and i can tell that in the begining of your post, urban, that you sincerely were tryin to keep it off of you. but as mroe and more people started commenting it went right back to you. It's just the life of a teenager, highschoolers are mean, people make fun of other people but just get over it and be the bigger person. The chances are you wont get killed for being gay, but you will probably get made fun of just like fat people get made fun of for being fat and green bay packers fans get made fun of being packers fans

[Sweeney]

I think it's hilarious how you change what you claim you are saying when you realise you can't win the argument on your current tack.

[Nick]

I think it's hilarious how you change what you claim you are saying when you realise you can't win the argument on your current tack.

I haven't changed any part of my argument, you just haven't understood it or I've finally argued it to a point where you can't retort just for the sake of argument. The saddest part is that you know I'm right and yet you persist just because you can.

[Sweeney]

First, you were saying that homosexuals needed specific law to protect them from hate crimes.
Now you are saying that hate crime laws are indiscriminate.

Bit of a difference, isn't it?
Especially since I was advocating the latter, and calling you up on your hypocrisy for advocating the former. Which you responded to, and didn't correct. I'd say it was fair to deduce that you have changed your perspective.

[Waser Lave]

Giving harsher punishment for ANY 'hate crime' is wrong, it's tantamount to punishing people for their beliefs which would bring us into an Orwellian nightmare where we're basically punishing people for 'thoughtcrimes'...

Bring on the thinkpol?

You're also basically politicising law, which we really don't want to start doing. It'd be exactly like Iran's death penalty for adultery...

Edited by Laser Wave, 23 March 2007 - 07:34 AM.

[Sweeney]

Giving harsher punishment for ANY 'hate crime' is wrong, it's tantamount to punishing people for their beliefs which would bring us into an Orwellian nightmare where we're basically punishing people for 'thoughtcrimes'...

Bring on the thinkpol?

There's nothing wrong with punishing people for their beliefs when those beliefs actively interfere with the human rights of others.
In my opinion.

[Waser Lave]

There's nothing wrong with punishing people for their beliefs when those beliefs actively interfere with the human rights of others.
In my opinion.

No, you can only punish people when they ACT upon their beliefs, not because of the beliefs but because of their action, whether it be assault, murder or whatever. They should be punished for the crime, not their beliefs.

In my opinion.

Edited by Laser Wave, 23 March 2007 - 07:38 AM.

[Nick]

First, you were saying that homosexuals needed specific law to protect them from hate crimes.
Now you are saying that hate crime laws are indiscriminate.

Bit of a difference, isn't it?
Especially since I was advocating the latter, and calling you up on your hypocrisy for advocating the former. Which you responded to, and didn't correct. I'd say it was fair to deduce that you have changed your perspective.

I never said that, I said the act of gay-bashing should be added to the list of hate crimes. You clearly weren't paying attention at all.

Well, there are laws that say hate crimes are illegal. That's all that can be done, it would not be fair for jews, african americans, muslims, or fat people if gays got their own laws protecting them. People are killed for what they believe in all the time. People are killed at basketball games because they are cheering on their team, everyone knows about the little bit of slavery that still exists in the united states, and everyone knows that people are killed over everything! It just isnt fair or practical to protect gays. People are made fun of, people are killed. Laws don't really ALL THAT MUCH stop anything. I know you like to voice your oponion, and it's a good thing but some of your arguments blow up in your face because of they way you put it. and i can tell that in the begining of your post, urban, that you sincerely were tryin to keep it off of you. but as mroe and more people started commenting it went right back to you. It's just the life of a teenager, highschoolers are mean, people make fun of other people but just get over it and be the bigger person. The chances are you wont get killed for being gay, but you will probably get made fun of just like fat people get made fun of for being fat and green bay packers fans get made fun of being packers fans

Okay, Chris, read the whole topic before you post this because you obviously haven't. Read the post I made before yours because it completely refutes everything you've just said. Also, this entire paragraph restates the same point like 5 times.

Giving harsher punishment for ANY 'hate crime' is wrong, it's tantamount to punishing people for their beliefs which would bring us into an Orwellian nightmare where we're basically punishing people for 'thoughtcrimes'...

Bring on the thinkpol?

You're also basically politicising law, which we really don't want to start doing. It'd be exactly like Iran's death penalty for adultery...

Nobody's punishing anyone for their "thoughts." If beliefs interfere with the law then who the fuck cares what you think? You broke a law that you agree to by living here, the end. "Thought crimes," are crimes of the mind whereas we're discussing punishing people for murder based on hate.

[Cataliste]

Let's be honest.

People are morons.

If it isn't directly in the limelight, chances are they don't even know it exist. It's horrible that this man was killed simply for being gay, honestly. That's why I detest the human race, murder for no reason at all. Let's kill him because he does things that don't affect me in any way, shape, or form.

Makes me sick to my stomach. Why does everyone have to hate simply based on race/sex/orientation/religion? Hell in a hand basket folks.

[Jewbert]

Let's be honest.

People are morons.

If it isn't directly in the limelight, chances are they don't even know it exist. It's horrible that this man was killed simply for being gay, honestly. That's why I detest the human race, murder for no reason at all. Let's kill him because he does things that don't affect me in any way, shape, or form.

Makes me sick to my stomach. Why does everyone have to hate simply based on race/sex/orientation/religion? Hell in a hand basket folks.

Ah yes. My hate for people grows every day. All I see is shit were someone's eyes were gouged out, or someone was stabbed or ran over or beat up.
Sigh.
I have not read all three pages of this, but by reading the above comment, I assume someone was killed for being gay. Stupid. Mean, heartless, and cruel. Kind of like how the KKK is//was. They killed out of hate and dislike.

[Cataliste]

Giving harsher punishment for ANY 'hate crime' is wrong, it's tantamount to punishing people for their beliefs which would bring us into an Orwellian nightmare where we're basically punishing people for 'thoughtcrimes'...

Bring on the thinkpol?

You're also basically politicising law, which we really don't want to start doing. It'd be exactly like Iran's death penalty for adultery...

QFE

Thank you. A crime is a crime. I shoot a black man, a white man, a green man, a gay yellow man. Who cares? I killed a human being. That's the end of it, send me to jail please.

[Waser Lave]

Nobody's punishing anyone for their "thoughts." If beliefs interfere with the law then who the fuck cares what you think? You broke a law that you agree to by living here, the end. "Thought crimes," are crimes of the mind whereas we're discussing punishing people for murder based on hate.

Every murder is caused by some level of hatred, you don't murder somebody because of benevolence towards them...

If somebody goes out to murder anybody (regardless of their beliefs) they should be punished to the full extent of the law and no further.

I don't see why we segregate people into certain categories by sexuality, race, shape etc. We're all humans, end of story (well most of us are).

Edited by Laser Wave, 23 March 2007 - 08:11 AM.

[Nick]

Every murder is caused by some level of hatred, you don't murder somebody because of benevolence towards them...

If somebody goes out to murder anybody (regardless of their beliefs) they should be punished to the full extent of the law and no further.

I don't see why we segregate people into certain categories by sexuality, race, shape etc. We're all humans, end of story (well most of us are).

Bank robbery gone wrong could be an example of a murder without hatred. You all need to read the huge post I made on the previous page and then see what you think.