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All Drugs Should be Legalized


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#151 frostz

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Posted 20 May 2011 - 01:19 PM

I agree that legalization would help develop some countries economy, bring higher quality options, and it could help develop more help fr people with drug problems.
However it wouldn't stop illegal drug trade, and it is very likely that consume could increase.
It would make it easier for some people to get into drugs because people would have another barrier lifted if it were legal to use them (Some people think it twice just because that).

And BTW, I see frostz posts in almost every topic lately.



Illegal drug trade would keep going.
You legalize marijuana, you'll have heroin and cocaine illegal dealers.
You legalize those and you'll have meth dealers.

You legalize every single drug, and there would still be an illegal market that offers them for a cheaper prize.

Legalization wouldn't be a solution to illegal drug trade or drug consumption.


Yes illegal drugs would keep going, see Opium wars. Opium had been banned but illegal importation still happened. But we can also see how it would be a bad idea for a country to use the drug trade to develop its economy. What happens if they want to stop the drug trade? how will they deal with the addicts in their country as well as the country from which they were importing drugs

P.s. Even if I didn't have a better idea of the future with drugs legalized, it still doesn't detract from the fact that all of your arguments are seriously flawed and almost entirely worthless.


Everything thought is worthless in the face of hard evidence, should evidence be found. A lot of my arguments are based upon speculation on the outcome of legalization which as you say cannot be known. Based on what i think the world would be like i call for the continuation of leaving them illegal

So take my arguments as you will, if you think they are worthless then so be it.

Edited by frostz, 20 May 2011 - 01:23 PM.


#152 WharfRat

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Posted 20 May 2011 - 01:24 PM

Chemical in nature yes, but in the case of video games you arn't putting outside chemicals into yourself.

In case you didn't realize, your body doesn't give two shits if the dopamine was stimulated through a chemical intake or through playing a video game. The chemistry of addiction in the two is exactly the same.

p.s. You are taking in outside chemicals every time you breath. You need outside chemicals to live. Check out dihydrogen monoxide. A potent solvent that will actually kill you in high dosages. Yet you take it into your body every day of the week. ;)

Illegal drug trade would keep going.
You legalize marijuana, you'll have heroin and cocaine illegal dealers.
You legalize those and you'll have meth dealers.

You legalize every single drug, and there would still be an illegal market that offers them for a cheaper prize.

Legalization wouldn't be a solution to illegal drug trade or drug consumption.

Right... because when you go and buy liquor, you'd much rather buy from bubba who you don't know how safe it is for a little bit less than that liquor store that is inspected, huh?

Everything thought is worthless in the face of hard evidence, should evidence be found.

I like how out of all the statistics and examples I provided that you only chose to respond to my post script message to you... I just gave you some hard evidence. READ. ;)

#153 frostz

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Posted 20 May 2011 - 01:25 PM

In case you didn't realize, your body doesn't give two shits if the dopamine was stimulated through a chemical intake or through playing a video game. The chemistry of addiction in the two is exactly the same.

p.s. You are taking in outside chemicals every time you breath. You need outside chemicals to live. Check out dihydrogen monoxide. A potent solvent that will actually kill you in high dosages. ;)


Right... because when you go and buy liquor, you'd much rather buy from bubba who you don't know how safe it is for a little bit less than that liquor store that is inspected, huh?


I like how out of all the statistics and examples I provided that you only chose to respond to my post script message to you... I just gave you some hard evidence. READ. ;)

Finally, just take a look at the prohibition of alcohol in the United States and what that caused. Alcohol was still widely consumed despite the legality, but now otherwise productive and law abiding citizens had to fear the wrath of the government for something that they consumed. Alcohol wasn't less available because gangs (mobsters) took over the control of most of the alcohol trade in the united states. You had high crime rates, high rates of violence, and ended up forcing people from society and into jail for partaking in an alcoholic beverage. It was seen fairly clearly that prohibition was a failure and that the government had simply outsourced all of the business into the hands of shady and violent criminals. Prohibition ended and this black market was largely destroyed and consumers were now afforded the comfort of knowing their booze wasn't tainted, knowing what strength it was, and knowing that they didn't have to worry about the police breaking down their door and dragging them to prison. WAKE UP! It's the same old song and the same old dance... prohibition of drugs is no different than the prohibition of alcohol was... and if it's end is any indicator of a future after drug legalization, I think that we should pass legislation immediately.

<br style="mso-special-character:line-break">
Ok so i read the whole thing, and while i am still skeptical on the effects of legalization, the example of prohibition seems to tie closely enough with drugs to convince me of your argument for the most part. I am aware that drugs are often cut with other substances, and yea sure you would probably make the whole thing safer should drugs be legalized for people who already do drugs.

I remain on my point that keeping drugs illegal will still protect a few who would not have access to drugs, but honestly i don't have numbers of just how much of the population this makes up. Maybe it isnt a significant enough number to make it so that it balances out the benefits of legalizing drugs? If we are looking it from a purely numerical perspective and not from the matter of principle (which as you say is probably pretty worthless) then yea i could be completely wrong.

As far as the percentages of decriminalized drug use in Netherlands, vs the United states

im sure there are various factors as to why the numbers look the way they do aside from simply because drugs are decriminalized. Culture/ total population could play a huge role. As well as just who took part in the survey.

If drugs are actually legal in the netherlands, then id probably say that their statistic is probably accurateish, but the United States % may probably be higher because less people would admit it.

But again, id look at the survey with a grain of salt if we are gona use it as proof that legalization would result in decreased usage because of factors i mentioned above.

Yes legalization may decrease the percentage of people who do it for purposes of rebeling, but the percentage may also increase for the population of people that i am arguing to protect through keeping drugs illegal. But again, i have no numbers of that population so i cannot actually argue against the statistics you provide.

Edited by frostz, 20 May 2011 - 01:42 PM.


#154 Ziz

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Posted 20 May 2011 - 01:35 PM

It would decrease deaths via overdose because of standardization.

I said something like that on the post where yu quoted me.



It would decrease addiction because people would be able to get help more easily.

Only for people with enough money for getting that help.



It would decrease the drug trafficking because it wouldn't be necessary.
If drugs are legal, they'll get CHEAPER because there's no risk with selling and no desperation in buying.

Not everywhere. Taxes would raise more the price f some drugs, and illegal drug traffic could continue with tsome drugs.



Also, people will be able to get the drugs legally, so why would they buy via black market where there are risks from bad product to gang warfare to legal issues?

Because poor / stingy / weird people wuld still try t buy the cheapest drugs available.
Black market could offer them cheap drugs.



And actually, there IS a chance that it would decrease use, because there are people that do it precisely because it's illegal (don't pretend you've never had that mentality where you want to do something because you shouldn't).

Every person is different.



Right... because when you go and buy liquor, you'd much rather buy from bubba who you don't know how safe it is for a little bit less than that liquor store that is inspected, huh?

Poor/Stingy people would keep being poor/stingy.

Edited by Ziz, 20 May 2011 - 01:37 PM.


#155 WharfRat

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Posted 20 May 2011 - 01:43 PM

Because poor / stingy / weird people wuld still try t buy the cheapest drugs available.
Black market could offer them cheap drugs.

Every person is different.

Poor/Stingy people would keep being poor/stingy.

Then why do more people not drink moonshine? 1) the market is well regulated to ensure consumer safety. 2) The cost to benefit ratio for a potential manufacturer is too small and the risk that they face for selling without a license is too great for it to be worth their time, money, or liberty.

That's why people don't buy home made liquor over cheap store bought liquor...

#156 frostz

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Posted 20 May 2011 - 01:44 PM

I said something like that on the post where yu quoted me.




Only for people with enough money for getting that help.




Not everywhere. Taxes would raise more the price f some drugs, and illegal drug traffic could continue with tsome drugs.




Because poor / stingy / weird people wuld still try t buy the cheapest drugs available.
Black market could offer them cheap drugs.




Every person is different.




Poor/Stingy people would keep being poor/stingy.


Well the common argument that i think is going on right now, is that legalization would effectively protect the majority of people by providing them with "safe" drugs that isnt cut with dangerous substances to use..

read my post wharf i finished editing

Then why do more people not drink moonshine? 1) the market is well regulated to ensure consumer safety. 2) The cost to benefit ratio for a potential manufacturer is too small and the risk that they face for selling without a license is too great for it to be worth their time, money, or liberty.

That's why people don't buy home made liquor over cheap store bought liquor...


Also im sure there are people who buy that stuff, you just don't see them very often

Edited by frostz, 20 May 2011 - 01:45 PM.


#157 WharfRat

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Posted 20 May 2011 - 01:51 PM

<br style="mso-special-character:line-break">
Ok so i read the whole thing, and while i am still skeptical on the effects of legalization, the example of prohibition seems to tie closely enough with drugs to convince me of your argument for the most part. I am aware that drugs are often cut with other substances, and yea sure you would probably make the whole thing safer should drugs be legalized for people who already do drugs.

I remain on my point that keeping drugs illegal will still protect a few who would not have access to drugs, but honestly i don't have numbers of just how much of the population this makes up. Maybe it isnt a significant enough number to make it so that it balances out the benefits of legalizing drugs? If we are looking it from a purely numerical perspective and not from the matter of principle (which as you say is probably pretty worthless) then yea i could be completely wrong.

As far as the percentages of decriminalized drug use in Netherlands, vs the United states

im sure there are various factors as to why the numbers look the way they do aside from simply because drugs are decriminalized. Culture/ total population could play a huge role. As well as just who took part in the survey.

If drugs are actually legal in the netherlands, then id probably say that their statistic is probably accurateish, but the United States % may probably be higher because less people would admit it.

But again, id look at the survey with a grain of salt if we are gona use it as proof that legalization would result in decreased usage because of factors i mentioned above.

Yes legalization may decrease the percentage of people who do it for purposes of rebeling, but the percentage may also increase for the population of people that i am arguing to protect through keeping drugs illegal. But again, i have no numbers of that population so i cannot actually argue against the statistics you provide.

Isn't the scientific approach such a pain in the ass to a stance based upon moral objection and an attempt to save everyone from themselves?

Yes, there are definitely good reasons to say that the two countries would prove differing statistics... however, it is about the closest set of data we can use to predict.

Moreover, the principle of imprisoning someone for exercising their right to sovereignty over their own body is egregious.

Also im sure there are people who buy that stuff, you just don't see them very often

Yes.. and there are also idiots who jump off of buildings or who cut their wrists with knives just to feel... I think the point is that we are currently forcing everyone into the black market to get potentially unsafe drugs instead of allowing everyone the freedom to purchase safe, medicinal grade drugs...

#158 frostz

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Posted 20 May 2011 - 01:52 PM

Isn't the scientific approach such a pain in the ass to a stance based upon moral objection and an attempt to save everyone from themselves?

Yes, there are definitely good reasons to say that the two countries would prove differing statistics... however, it is about the closest set of data we can use to predict.

Moreover, the principle of imprisoning someone for exercising their right to sovereignty over their own body is egregious.


the scientific approach is a pita to argue against ;\

Also as a side note home made liquor is very popular in prison

see Prison Pruno

http://www.blacktabl...illin030901.htm

Yes.. and there are also idiots who jump off of buildings or who cut their wrists with knives just to feel... I think the point is that we are currently forcing everyone into the black market to get potentially unsafe drugs instead of allowing everyone the freedom to purchase safe, medicinal grade drugs...


Well yes i agreed with the fact that legalization would serve to protect users a long time ago.

Edited by frostz, 20 May 2011 - 01:57 PM.


#159 WharfRat

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Posted 20 May 2011 - 01:57 PM

the scientific approach is a pita to argue against ;\

Also as a side note home made liquor is very popular in prison

see Prison Pruno

http://www.blacktabl...illin030901.htm

... ... ...Where they are unable to make the purchase of safe liquor...

I feel like I'm being forced into repetition here...

#160 Sweeney

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Posted 20 May 2011 - 02:02 PM

Why would a dealer continue to sell cheap, low quality, illegal drugs, when they can legitimise their business and turn a higher profit?

#161 Ziz

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Posted 20 May 2011 - 02:07 PM

Why would a dealer continue to sell cheap, low quality, illegal drugs, when they can legitimise their business and turn a higher profit?

Because they would find new drugs/illegal things to do.
(Some would move to human organs, human traficking, etc...)
A lot f big drug dealers do not rely only on drug dealing.




Isn't the scientific approach such a pain in the ass to a stance based upon moral objection and an attempt to save everyone from themselves?

Yes, there are definitely good reasons to say that the two countries would prove differing statistics... however, it is about the closest set of data we can use to predict.

Moreover, the principle of imprisoning someone for exercising their right to sovereignty over their own body is egregious.


Yes.. and there are also idiots who jump off of buildings or who cut their wrists with knives just to feel... I think the point is that we are currently forcing everyone into the black market to get potentially unsafe drugs instead of allowing everyone the freedom to purchase safe, medicinal grade drugs...


So in conclusion...
Black market would continue, and cnsumption will probably increase in poor countries.

My point since the beggining was that legalization would provide better quality and reduce (partially) violence related to traffic dealing.
Also legalization would surely give more resurces to countries with illegal drug trafic problems because they wouldn't waste sources trying (effortlessly) to destroy it.
(Even if politicians stop getting money from corruption related to illegal drug traffic, they would nw receive taxes, and prducer cuntries wuld receive more money :p)

However, legalization alone wouldn't solve the drug consumptin problem. The best solution for that would be investing on education (the resources for doing that would come from the money that legal drugs would produce to those countries, but politicians are shitty so it wouldn't really happen).

Edited by Ziz, 20 May 2011 - 02:11 PM.


#162 frostz

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Posted 20 May 2011 - 02:08 PM

Why would a dealer continue to sell cheap, low quality, illegal drugs, when they can legitimise their business and turn a higher profit?


well we were saying that drugs would only be limited to pharmacies that are government regulated. So they couldn't turn their business legitimate anyway. Unless someone changed the rules for legalization somewhere and i didn't notice.

#163 WharfRat

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Posted 20 May 2011 - 02:11 PM

well we were saying that drugs would only be limited to pharmacies that are government regulated. So they couldn't turn their business legitimate anyway. Unless someone changed the rules for legalization somewhere and i didn't notice.

You do know that anyone who gets licensed can open a pharmacy right...? Same with a liquor store... Same with a tobacco shop... same with a sex shop... etc. etc.

#164 Surrico

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Posted 20 May 2011 - 02:12 PM

I suppose for shits and giggles we can also look at the crime rate...

Netherlands:
Murders (per capita) 0.0111538 per 1,000 people
Rapes (per capita) 0.100445 per 1,000 people
Car thefts (per capita) 2.33559 per 1,000 people

USA:
Murders (per capita) 0.042802 per 1,000 people (3.8x as many as The Netherlands)
Rapes (per capita) 0.301318 per 1,000 people (2.9x as many as The Netherlands)
Car thefts (per capita) 3.8795 per 1,000 people (1.66x as many as The Netherlands)

I'll let you draw your own conclusions about that data. ;)



Not sure why but for some reason I feel that data would be more effective if we also knew the number of people per region.

#165 frostz

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Posted 20 May 2011 - 02:12 PM

You do know that anyone who gets licensed can open a pharmacy right...? Same with a liquor store... Same with a tobacco shop... same with a sex shop... etc. etc.


no i didnt know this, but thanks for the heads up.

#166 WharfRat

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Posted 20 May 2011 - 02:12 PM

So in conclusion...
Black market would continue, and cnsumption will probably increase in poor countries.

My point since the beggining was that legalization would provide better quality and reduce (partially) violence related to traffic dealing.
Also legalization would surely give more resurces to countries with illegal drug trafic problems because they wouldn't waste sources trying (effortlessly) to destroy it.
(Even if politicians stop getting money from corruption related to illegal drug traffic, they would nw receive taxes, and prducer cuntries wuld receive more money :p)

However, legalization alone wouldn't solve the drug consumptin problem. The best solution for that would be investing on education (the resources for doing that would come from the money that legal drugs would produce to those countries, but politicians are shitty so it wouldn't really happen).


@Ziz, while I am far too exhausted to even begin, I will choose not to speculate on the potential implications of poor nations by the legalization of drugs within the United States. However to your point that "legalization alone wouldn't solve the drug consumptin problem." You are already making the assumption that consuming drugs IS a problem. I don't see the same level of outrage over caffeine...

#167 frostz

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Posted 20 May 2011 - 02:22 PM

Because they would find new drugs/illegal things to do.
(Some would move to human organs, human traficking, etc...)
A lot f big drug dealers do not rely only on drug dealing.

So in conclusion...
Black market would continue, and cnsumption will probably increase in poor countries.

My point since the beggining was that legalization would provide better quality and reduce (partially) violence related to traffic dealing.
Also legalization would surely give more resurces to countries with illegal drug trafic problems because they wouldn't waste sources trying (effortlessly) to destroy it.
(Even if politicians stop getting money from corruption related to illegal drug traffic, they would nw receive taxes, and prducer cuntries wuld receive more money :p)

However, legalization alone wouldn't solve the drug consumptin problem. The best solution for that would be investing on education (the resources for doing that would come from the money that legal drugs would produce to those countries, but politicians are shitty so it wouldn't really happen).



@Ziz, while I am far too exhausted to even begin, I will choose not to speculate on the potential implications of poor nations by the legalization of drugs within the United States. However to your point that "legalization alone wouldn't solve the drug consumptin problem." You are already making the assumption that consuming drugs IS a problem. I don't see the same level of outrage over caffeine...

Ill take a stab at it.

The implication of legalization in the united states would probably create an effect like what happened between China and Britain during the opium wars.

So say a third world country opens itself to drugs, to the United States who now produce drugs legally. What would happen when the third world country decides that they want to stop the importation of drugs when they decide that the impacts of abuse amongst their population is becoming unbearable? (yea i know china had already banned opium long before this happened but theres really no difference if if they decided to stop trading before or after the ban with british trading companies)

The companies that are creating, and exporting the drugs arn't going to take that lying down. I mean the United states doesn't exactly have a history of being good to other nations that they subject to imperialism, and most likely the flow of drugs would simply continue so long as there is a profit to be made. Its not like we are gona educate them on drug use, see American cigarette companies.

Actually on this topic, its probably very likely that the drugs would be grown in the third world countries, turned into usable drugs, and then sold back to the citizens of that country.. sort of like in the case of tobacco.

#168 Ziz

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Posted 20 May 2011 - 02:31 PM

@Ziz, while I am far too exhausted to even begin, I will choose not to speculate on the potential implications of poor nations by the legalization of drugs within the United States. However to your point that "legalization alone wouldn't solve the drug consumptin problem." You are already making the assumption that consuming drugs IS a problem. I don't see the same level of outrage over caffeine...


It is a health and social problem for some sectors of the population (non-adult people).
Children would be able to get acces to meth just like they do nowadays with alchol/cigarettes.
I haven't known anyone that dies because of a first time experience with those, but I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be the same with other drugs.

#169 WharfRat

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Posted 20 May 2011 - 05:08 PM

It is a health and social problem for some sectors of the population (non-adult people).
Children would be able to get acces to meth just like they do nowadays with alchol/cigarettes.
I haven't known anyone that dies because of a first time experience with those, but I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be the same with other drugs.

*sigh* I really am just being forced into repetition here... I think I'll just quote myself to save myself the time.

And I quote myself;

First, the legalization of marijuana doesn't actually mean it would be more readily available for children/teens. A study was done by the White House Office of National Drug Control Policy that showed that for all age category of students polled, marijuana was much more easily accessible than was alcohol. That should make it blatantly clear that age restrictions and legal measures are more effective than allowing the black market to dictate trade to minors.


I even included the name of the organization (A government organization mind you...) that conducted the study. YOU ARE WRONG. kthxbai.

#170 DenyingSystems

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Posted 20 May 2011 - 05:36 PM

I wouldn't mind if weed was legalized since so many people do it, not much different than cigarettes from what I know, and it's so easy to get, it's just like who cares. Also, in MA if you are above 18 and caught with under 1 oz you pay a $250 fine, but I'm pretty sure nothing goes on your record and you don't go to jail.

For the harder drugs issue, I definitely think they should remain illegal. I believe some people were bringing up the point that it would be standardized and there would be more education about them and while it seems like it would make sense, I don't think it would. For example, a few years ago in MA there was a law passed regulating alcohol selling believe and it immediately cut down on the amount of alcohol related incidents. While it isn't quite the same, I was just trying to provide an example on how cutting down the legalization of something can be beneficial.

#171 Ziz

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Posted 20 May 2011 - 05:41 PM

*sigh* I really am just being forced into repetition here... I think I'll just quote myself to save myself the time.

And I quote myself;

I even included the name of the organization (A government organization mind you...) that conducted the study. YOU ARE WRONG. kthxbai.



OMG
Spoiler


Forgive my hasty attitude.
I tried to read the complete thread, but I skipped the page where you posted those things.

#172 WharfRat

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Posted 20 May 2011 - 05:45 PM

OMG

Spoiler


Forgive my hasty attitude.
I tried to read the complete thread, but I skipped the page where you posted those things.

haha no worries. Sorry if I came across as an asshole. Today was the end of a 100 hour work week and I'm ridiculously exhausted and frostz does make me say the same things over and over and over. :p

Cheers!

#173 Abradix

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Posted 20 May 2011 - 10:22 PM

I don't see the same level of outrage over caffeine...


Alright, this. We can lock this thread now.

#174 Frizzle

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Posted 21 May 2011 - 04:28 AM

Alright, this. We can lock this thread now.


Because cocaine and caffeine are exactly the same thing?

Let's not try to compare class A/class I drugs to a relatively harmless additive shall we?

#175 rapmastahc

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Posted 21 May 2011 - 11:05 PM

I don't think legalizing drugs would cause a huge problem in society. If they were, I feel that people might have easier access to them, but the reasons for not doing them would basically be the same. It's tough to say though, without a good model to really analyze


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