17 replies to this topic

[Waser Lave]

http://www.bbc.co.uk...onment-15017484

Puzzling results from Cern, home of the LHC, have confounded physicists - because it appears subatomic particles have exceeded the speed of light.

Neutrinos sent through the ground from Cern toward the Gran Sasso laboratory 732km away seemed to show up a few billionths of a second early.

The results will soon be online to draw closer scrutiny to a result that, if true, would upend a century of physics.

The lab's research director called it "an apparently unbelievable result".

The speed of light is the Universe's ultimate speed limit, and the entirety of modern physics - as laid out in part by Albert Einstein in his theory of relativity - depends on the idea that nothing can exceed it.

Thousands of experiments have been undertaken to measure it ever more precisely, and no result has ever spotted a particle breaking the limit.

But Antonio Ereditato of the Opera collaboration and his colleagues have been carrying out an experiment for the last three years that seems to suggest neutrinos have done just that.

Neutrinos come in a number of types, and have recently been seen to switch spontaneously from one type to another.

Dr Ereditato and his colleagues prepare a beam of just one type, muon neutrinos, sending them from Cern to an underground laboratory at Gran Sasso in Italy to see how many show up as a different type, tau neutrinos.

In the course of doing the experiments, the researchers noticed that the particles showed up 60 billionths of a second sooner than light would over the same distance.

The team measured the travel times of neutrino bunches some 15,000 times, and have reached a level of statistical significance that in scientific circles would count as a formal discovery.

But because the result is so unexpected and would wreak such havoc with our understanding of the Universe, the group is being particularly cautious. They have opted to put a report of their measurements online to subject them to wider scrutiny, and will hold a seminar at Cern on Friday to discuss the result.

[ch33psh33p]

Perhaps they transform into tachyons during the flight ever so briefly?

[Melchoire]

It's mind blowing that science can achieve such precision in measuring time. I mean calibrating the timing to account for information traveling through wires and through processors, it's just staggering.

Perhaps they transform into tachyons during the flight ever so briefly?

Not necessarily.

Tachyons are theoretical particles for one. Second while they do travel faster than light© this is because they were never traveling slower than C to begin with. Decelerating to C would be equivalent to another particle accelerating to C which again is something that would asymptotically increase its mass to infinity.

Correct me if I'm wrong, I fully expect to have made a mistake somewhere in there.

[Waser Lave]

It's mind blowing that science can achieve such precision in measuring time. I mean calibrating the timing to account for information traveling through wires and through processors, it's just staggering.



Not necessarily.

Tachyons are theoretical particles for one. Second while they do travel faster than light© this is because they were never traveling slower than C to begin with. Decelerating to C would be equivalent to another particle accelerating to C which again is something that would asymptotically increase its mass to infinity.

Correct me if I'm wrong, I fully expect to have made a mistake somewhere in there.

I don't think a tachyon can travel at less than C anyway so the subatomic particle would have to have reached at least C to be a tachyon in the first place.

It's probably academic anyway given that they've never even found any evidence for tachyons actually existing yet.

[sircomflix]

It's really hard to see this being more than just a systematic error, even with such a significant result. I'll keep my pants on until it is conclusively verified or reproduced. Still very interesting though... The implications are pretty big.

[Kyouma]

60 Billionth of a second huh? That's like 60 feet faster than light is in a second.

Still, I don't expect much from this though. Quantum Physics as a subject is really too confounding for people of this age to fully understand and utilize.

[frostz]

Now i don't understand a lot about physics but i don't see how something traveling slightly faster than light would break our "understanding of the universe".

Assuming that the experiments were not faulty, its not like our technology is suddenly going to advance or be rendered meaningless. Nor will most physics rules and equations be rendered obsolete.

Correct my if i'm wrong but all that would happen is that we would have to replace the word light in a couple of text books to neutrino bunches or something, and possibly several systems of measurement that is only used by astronomers or physicists anyway. And perhaps the reevaluation of several theories and some such that include the speed of light as a limiting factor.

Edited by frostz, 22 September 2011 - 06:22 PM.

[sircomflix]

Now i don't understand a lot about physics but i don't see how something traveling slightly faster than light would break our "understanding of the universe".

Assuming that the experiments were not faulty, its not like our technology is suddenly going to advance or be rendered meaningless. Nor will most physics rules and equations be rendered obsolete.

Correct my if i'm wrong but all that would happen is that we would have to replace the word light in a couple of text books to neutrino bunches or something, and possibly several systems of measurement that is only used by astronomers or physicists anyway. And perhaps the reevaluation of several theories and some such that include the speed of light as a limiting factor.

Physics from the past century have been based on the understanding of Einstein's theory of special relativity. It is a fundamental element, and to realize it is wrong would require physicists to look back on a lot of the discoveries and research over the years, and would greatly change our understanding of the universe.

The Reuters article stated they have a total of 15000 data points from the past 3 years, with the average being something like 5-6 standard deviations from the mean. That's extremely statistically significant and can't be ignored. All we can do now is just wait for an explanation, or maybe Fermilab can reproduce such a result.

Edited by sircomflix, 22 September 2011 - 07:14 PM.

[luvsmyncis]

It's really hard to see this being more than just a systematic error, even with such a significant result. I'll keep my pants on until it is conclusively verified or reproduced. Still very interesting though... The implications are pretty big.

There's a lot I don't understand in this topic, but this puzzles me the most: why do you have to keep your pants on?

[Waser Lave]

Physics from the past century have been based on the understanding of Einstein's theory of special relativity. It is a fundamental element, and to realize it is wrong would require physicists to look back on a lot of the discoveries and research over the years, and would greatly change our understanding of the universe.

The Reuters article stated they have a total of 15000 data points from the past 3 years, with the average being something like 5-6 standard deviations from the mean. That's extremely statistically significant and can't be ignored. All we can do now is just wait for an explanation, or maybe Fermilab can reproduce such a result.

I wouldn't use the word 'wrong', it's just different. Just as the physics which Einstein described was different to the work of Newton, they're both valid but in very different areas and they're intended for different sections of physics.

[josedavidbt6]

So what's the speed limit in the universe, is that perhaps the light was faster? If you can overcome this we not meet the goals ofscience fiction movies about time travel? O.o would be interesting to confirm this fact definitely, probably bring new progress onthe light
PD: Sorry if I do not understand, do not speak Spanish, I'm using a translator u.u

[frostz]

So what's the speed limit in the universe, is that perhaps the light was faster? If you can overcome this we not meet the goals ofscience fiction movies about time travel? O.o would be interesting to confirm this fact definitely, probably bring new progress onthe light
PD: Sorry if I do not understand, do not speak Spanish, I'm using a translator u.u

No, because we cannot travel at light speed as it is now.

Just because they discovered something that travels faster than light doesn't really mean anything since our technology isn't advanced enough to make use of that knowledge anyway outside of computer chips, fiberoptic wires, or something.

Hence why i asked how this discovery would change anything and why it is even really significant outside of theoretical equations and what not as it has no real application of earth shattering significance.

Physics from the past century have been based on the understanding of Einstein's theory of special relativity. It is a fundamental element, and to realize it is wrong would require physicists to look back on a lot of the discoveries and research over the years, and would greatly change our understanding of the universe.

What part of our understanding of the universe would this change besides things not being able to surpass light speed, and theories that involve this barrier? I mean its not going to change the main laws that we know of which govern what we experience anyway such as motion and the measuring of momentum, velocity, etc.

Knowing that light is not the fastest thing out there isn't suddenly going to allow me to fall "up", and neither is it going to lead to sudden break throughs in, as wondered by the above poster "time travel". And obviously the past discoveries still hold otherwise certain technologies we have now would not function otherwise.

Maybe it will lead to some break through in communications delay, and a reevaluated measurement system but i really don't see what else it would bring about, and these small potential break throughs in technology is not really the sort of thing i would think of as "changing everything that we know".


I would think that something worthy of being called "wreaks havoc on our understanding of the universe" would be like um.

Discovering that gravity doesn't exist and that we are held down because space is a reverse vacuum or something....This discovery is more akin to upgrading from an analog watch to a digital one, or discovering that the metric system is more efficient than the standard measuring system.

Edited by frostz, 23 September 2011 - 05:55 PM.

[chini]

....And we'll never hear about it again.

[Jake]

If I can recall my science lessons, I believe neutrinos could travel through time, correct? This isn't so surprising necessarily, I would believe this to be more of a time warp than a much faster type of travel.

I would think that something worthy of being called "wreaks havoc on our understanding of the universe" would be like um.

Another thing that could potentially destroy the universe is creating a type of generator that gives exponential energy while using absolutely no energy, this can be done so long as it is given a spark of energy.

[Waser Lave]

If I can recall my science lessons, I believe neutrinos could travel through time, correct? This isn't so surprising necessarily, I would believe this to be more of a time warp than a much faster type of travel.

We don't know of anything that can travel through time unless I missed something major. Neutrinos are able, however, to pass through matter because they have almost no mass and no electric charge so they've been called a 'ghost particle'.

[frostz]

If I can recall my science lessons, I believe neutrinos could travel through time, correct? This isn't so surprising necessarily, I would believe this to be more of a time warp than a much faster type of travel.

I don't get it. Isn't time just a name given to the passing of moments? To say that something can travel through time (backwards or forward, experiencing time slower or faster than something else even) implies that anything that happens in the past/future are recorded and saved at every passing interval in a "time stream" of sorts which i always thought of as only existing in science fiction novels..

I've never thought of time as anything more than a theoretical dimension of the universe used to explain certain anomalies, but not actually existing.

Edited by frostz, 24 September 2011 - 11:12 PM.

[Nymh]

The thing that has be baffled is how something travelling faster than light constitutes it travelling through time.

It's like saying if two people are going to the same place, but one person walks and the other drives a car, that the person who drove jumped forward in time since they got there faster.

However, I haven't studied any string theory yet so I am quite uninitiated in my physics knowledge.

[Ellipses]

No, because we cannot travel at light speed as it is now.

Just because they discovered something that travels faster than light doesn't really mean anything since our technology isn't advanced enough to make use of that knowledge anyway outside of computer chips, fiberoptic wires, or something.

Hence why i asked how this discovery would change anything and why it is even really significant outside of theoretical equations and what not as it has no real application of earth shattering significance.



What part of our understanding of the universe would this change besides things not being able to surpass light speed, and theories that involve this barrier? I mean its not going to change the main laws that we know of which govern what we experience anyway such as motion and the measuring of momentum, velocity, etc.

Knowing that light is not the fastest thing out there isn't suddenly going to allow me to fall "up", and neither is it going to lead to sudden break throughs in, as wondered by the above poster "time travel". And obviously the past discoveries still hold otherwise certain technologies we have now would not function otherwise.

Maybe it will lead to some break through in communications delay, and a reevaluated measurement system but i really don't see what else it would bring about, and these small potential break throughs in technology is not really the sort of thing i would think of as "changing everything that we know".


I would think that something worthy of being called "wreaks havoc on our understanding of the universe" would be like um.

Discovering that gravity doesn't exist and that we are held down because space is a reverse vacuum or something....This discovery is more akin to upgrading from an analog watch to a digital one, or discovering that the metric system is more efficient than the standard measuring system.

I don't get it. Isn't time just a name given to the passing of moments? To say that something can travel through time (backwards or forward, experiencing time slower or faster than something else even) implies that anything that happens in the past/future are recorded and saved at every passing interval in a "time stream" of sorts which i always thought of as only existing in science fiction novels..

I've never thought of time as anything more than a theoretical dimension of the universe used to explain certain anomalies, but not actually existing.

Time travel is closely related to the speed of light. Relativity predicts that if objects were to move near/at/beyond the speed of light, the object would be subject to a time machine effect. So, something moving at beyond the speed of light might have strong implication in time travel.

Anyways, there were already other things that we think break the speed of light barrier in our universe - such as the expansion rate of our universe.

I do agree that our life styles would likely remain the same even if this experiment is valid. However, the most interesting part would probably be the explanation for the experiment - if proven valid. Perhaps relativity still holds and neutrinos used some kind of a wormhole (showing evidence of a theoretical/ science fiction based object) to cut through the space fabric to apparently break the speed limit. Even though this would likely have little to no effect on our standard of living, this could be the revolutionary discovery of the century - or just a faulty experiment.