43 replies to this topic

[nyquil]

When i heard this story a day or 2 ago I had heard that one the girls ended up in the hospital from chemical burns on her face. I kinda wonder what would have happened if one of the persons sprayed was allergic to the pepper spray. I'm with most you that this was very excessive force used and could have been averted. Like stated before we have the right to assemble peacefully, as far as im concerned blocking a path it's un-peaceful. even if they are sitting in the way of a path ... so what, walk around them and stop being lazy.

[Bone]

There whole idea is flawed.. if you tallied up all the networth of everyone in the nation, and distributed it out amongst everyone equally, it would all be suddenly worthless.
call me a hater, but i would mace everyone here if they blocked the sidewalk for 24 hours and was given notice 24 hours earlier, its a law, just because you are in a PROTEST does not mean you can go loot/rob/steal/disobey the law without punishment, what part do you not understand? protesters must follow rules to, if they would of got off sidewalk, no one would of got maced. p.s. they got 2 weeks administrative leave, so they are off work getting paid. no punishment to them. good

Can you please stop trolling this thread? I had a reason for not putting it in the debate section...

[Plunk]

All I'm going to say is this: If the whole problem was that they were blocking the pathway, then why did the people who were sitting on the grass get pepper sprayed as well?

[holaCarlos]

There have been reports that the police sprayed directly into some kid's throat...what the fuck.
But then you have Fox News saying it's essentially a food product.

[MsRose]

This manifesto is posted at all Occupy encampments.

"As we gather together in solidarity to express a feeling of mass injustice, we must not lose sight of what brought us together. We write so that all people who feel wronged by the corporate forces of the world can know that we are your allies.

"As one people, united, we acknowledge the reality: that the future of the human race requires the cooperation of its members; that our system must protect our rights, and upon corruption of that system, it is up to the individuals to protect their own rights, and those of their neighbors; that a democratic government derives its just power from the people, but corporations do not seek consent to extract wealth from the people and the Earth; and that no true democracy is attainable when the process is determined by economic power.

"We come to you at a time when corporations, which place profit over people, self-interest over justice, and oppression over equality, run our governments. We have peaceably assembled here, as is our right, to let these facts be known.

• They have taken our houses through an illegal foreclosure process, despite not having the original mortgage.
• They have taken bailouts from taxpayers with impunity, and continue to give Executives exorbitant bonuses.
• They have perpetuated inequality and discrimination in the workplace based on age, the color of one’s skin, sex, gender identity and sexual orientation.
• They have poisoned the food supply through negligence, and undermined the farming system through monopolization.
• They have profited off of the torture, confinement, and cruel treatment of countless animals, human and non, and actively hide these practices.
• They have continuously sought to strip employees of the right to negotiate for better pay and safer working conditions.
• They have held students hostage with tens of thousands of dollars of debt on education, which is itself a human right.
• They have consistently outsourced labor and used that outsourcing as leverage to cut workers’ healthcare and pay.
• They have influenced the courts to achieve the same rights as people, with none of the culpability or responsibility.
• They have spent millions of dollars on legal teams that look for ways to get them out of contracts in regards to health insurance.
• They have sold our privacy as a commodity.
• They have used the military and police force to prevent freedom of the press. They have deliberately declined to recall faulty products endangering lives in pursuit of profit.
• They determine economic policy, despite the catastrophic failures their policies have produced and continue to produce.
• They have donated large sums of money to politicians, who are responsible for regulating them.
• They continue to block alternate forms of energy to keep us dependent on oil.
• They continue to block generic forms of medicine that could save people’s lives or provide relief in order to protect investments that have already turned a substantial profit.
• They have purposely covered up oil spills, accidents, faulty bookkeeping, and inactive ingredients in pursuit of profit.
• They purposefully keep people misinformed and fearful through their control of the media.
• They have accepted private contracts to murder prisoners even when presented with serious doubts about their guilt.
• They have perpetuated colonialism at home and abroad. They have participated in the torture and murder of innocent civilians overseas.
• They continue to create weapons of mass destruction in order to receive government contracts.*

"To the people of the world,"We, the Los Angeles General Assembly occupying Los Angeles City Hall, urge you to assert your power.

"Exercise your right to peaceably assemble; occupy public space; create a process to address the problems we face, and generate solutions accessible to everyone.

"To all communities that take action and form groups in the spirit of direct democracy, we offer support, documentation, and all of the resources at our disposal.

"Join us and make your voices heard!"

*NOTE - These grievances are not all-inclusive.

__________________________________________________________________________________



The chaos comes because everyone's solution seems to be different. Some people want community gardens, other people want to march downtown and torch a Wells Fargo... Personally, I believe we simply need to get back to the principles that this country was founded on. There is no document we should be forced to live by except for the Constitution. People have a moral compass, and we should be allowed to use it. When manners are enforced, they are no longer manners. Laws are strangling the innovation that the US was once so renound for. America is not a Democracy, it is a Constitutional Republic with SOME Democratic principles... Your rights should be inalienable, 99% of the country can never take them away from you. Yet somewhere along the line, someone managed a 51% vote (during a time of extreme panic) and now I can't fly on an airplane without suspending my 4th Amendment. I can't buy a gun because my name is on a list, even though the 2nd Amendment clearly states that it is my right. I can't exercise my right to peaceful assembly, or redress of grievances because it interferes with some grandiose scheme that has been laid out for me, and that (apparently) must be followed to the letter, under threat of flashbangs, tear gas, and usage of rubber bullets on unarmed citizens.

Democracy is the absolute worst form of government, if only for the reason that the government is the one to tell you what YOU voted for. They'll tell you from here to doomsday that its all for your protection. THEY'RE LYING!! Don't listen to a god damn word these snakes say, but watch very carefully what they do... And the people who are paying attention to the signs can see this country headed in a very scary direction. Rather than defame our character because Faux News said we're all drug addicts, why not help us pump the brakes? I've posted some of this before, but I thank you for reading this far... I'll end here with a quote from economist Herbert Stein: "If something cannot go on forever, it will stop." Deceptively simple, yet massively profound. So perhaps the mainstream is right... We don't have to find a way to stop the derivative-driven war machine, we're seeing the signs that it can't go on forever so its going to stop anyways. The truth is inarguable, if you're careening along a road toward a collapsed bridge (and we most assuredly are), you'll certainly stop, one way or the other. But it makes quite a bit of difference, at least to you, whether you skid to a halt four yards before the cliff's edge or whether you come to rest at the bottom of the ravine...

While I don't really agree, thanks for the information anyways. Always nice to get some insight.

Edited by MsRose, 24 November 2011 - 01:09 AM.

[MoriNoRyu]

I attend UC Davis, and heres a quick update. The police officer who did the spraying has been placed on leave, and the UC has agreed to pay all medical costs for the students sprayed. In addition, both the Physics and English department are calling for the resignation of Chancellor Katehi (the person who called the cops in). She has indicated that she does not plan to resign. I wouldn't either if i made 410K a year.
The right to peacefully assemble was not really the issue here imo, they protested all week and are people are still camping out currently, they just wanted people off for the weekend when theres no support staff on campus in case of emergencies.

On a more opinionated note, The UC campus is not public property, they have the right to kick people off. if you were on my lawn yelling nonsense i'd probably kick you out. Just saying. Pepper Spray, not cool. Breaking the law, not cool either.
Just my 2 cents.

[MsRose]

On a more opinionated note, The UC campus is not public property, they have the right to kick people off. if you were on my lawn yelling nonsense i'd probably kick you out. Just saying. Pepper Spray, not cool. Breaking the law, not cool either.
Just my 2 cents.

Wait, they were on private property?

Well there goes their whole argument.

[Abradix]

While I don't really agree, thanks for the information anyways. Always nice to get some insight.

Is there a reason you don't agree? How can you not recognize a truth thats staring you in the face?

There whole idea is flawed.. if you tallied up all the networth of everyone in the nation, and distributed it out amongst everyone equally, it would all be suddenly worthless.

OWS isn't calling for a redistribution of wealth, they're calling for equal opportunity. They want the people who don't have a conference room full of lawyers to have a fair shot, and if you think the playing field is at all even at the moment you need your shallow head examined.

call me a hater, but i would mace everyone here if they blocked the sidewalk for 24 hours and was given notice 24 hours earlier, its a law, just because you are in a PROTEST does not mean you can go loot/rob/steal/disobey the law without punishment, what part do you not understand? protesters must follow rules to, if they would of got off sidewalk, no one would of got maced.

What part do YOU not understand? The right to peaceful assembly and redress of grievances is written directly into the Constitution, it was the document that this country was founded on and it certainly trumps state penal code by a long shot. We are a nation founded on civil disobedience, so I won't call you a hater... I'll just try to understand that you're misinformed and don't actually have a solid point of view. You're going against the grain for the sake of going against the grain. How very teenager of you.

[MsRose]

Is there a reason you don't agree? How can you not recognize a truth thats staring you in the face?

I think OWS steamed from a faulting economy, but I think it's misplace anger. I think if anyone should be held to the fire it should be our elected representatives.

I think what upsets me most about OWS is their vast contradictions, which no doubt comes from the fact that they are used as a base-board for anyone "upset with our society" (a rather vague open door). For instance, they seem to want more regulations on business but in the same breath accuse the government of striping us of our rights. Well, business are run by people so regulating business is regulating the people, or in other words, taking away more freedoms. It's a mix between being a libertarian economically and also democratic economically. You see what I'm saying? It's mixing two polar opposites, they can't possibly have both.

I see "corporations" as the modern-day scape goat. I can't recall a single instance where I was "robbed" of my money by a corporation. People cite the house-market collapse, but seem to forget that they weren't forcing people to take out loans. People came to them, asking to be loaned money. It's personal responsibility, and it seems to be a forgotten lesson.

Furthermore, I find many of their examples of corporate greed to be very one sided. For example, "They have taken bailouts from taxpayers with impunity, and continue to give Executives exorbitant bonuses.", but it fails to mention the government has been 100% reimbursed.

[Abradix]

I think OWS steamed from a faulting economy, but I think it's misplace anger. I think if anyone should be held to the fire it should be our elected representatives.

I think what upsets me most about OWS is their vast contradictions, which no doubt comes from the fact that they are used as a base-board for anyone "upset with our society" (a rather vague open door). For instance, they seem to want more regulations on business but in the same breath accuse the government of striping us of our rights. Well, business are run by people so regulating business is regulating the people, or in other words, taking away more freedoms. It's a mix between being a libertarian economically and also democratic economically. You see what I'm saying? It's mixing two polar opposites, they can't possibly have both.

I see "corporations" as the modern-day scape goat. I can't recall a single instance where I was "robbed" of my money by a corporation. People cite the house-market collapse, but seem to forget that they weren't forcing people to take out loans. People came to them, asking to be loaned money. It's personal responsibility, and it seems to be a forgotten lesson.

Furthermore, I find many of their examples of corporate greed to be very one sided. For example, "They have taken bailouts from taxpayers with impunity, and continue to give Executives exorbitant bonuses.", but it fails to mention the government has been 100% reimbursed.

Hooray, someone who can actually hold their own in a debate... My heart is aflutter! I can't say I disagree with most of your post, but the trouble comes when you try to put words into the mouths of the protesters. Very few here are calling for more government regulation. We realize that government is the problem, not the solution. Do you not find it ridiculous that you can no longer sell lemonade without a business license? Or sell vegetables grown in your back yard without fear of repercussion? Hell, you can't even legally sell pies that you cooked in your own home at a church bake sale without a crackdown... I wish to every deity ever invented that this was all hyperbole, but it isn't. Our rights are being quashed in the name of safety, and eventually we need to say enough is enough.

Survival of the fittest is now determined by adeptness for legal acrobatics. We may not have been robbed directly by corporations... But we are being robbed by proxy. Our own government now does the robbing for them. The 16th Amendment is unratified, and the Federal income tax is therefore illegal. It states in the Constitution that all Federal taxes should be apportioned back to the people, it says nothing about taxing the people themselves... We are indeed being robbed of our rights, which has been made perfectly clear by the opposition the status quo has implemented against peaceful, Constitutionally approved protests. The people are indeed responsible for the loans they took out from the banks, but the government is responsible for our security and through their exponential growth, infinite spending, endless printing they have undermined the dollar and thereby cost those people their jobs. Now they can't make their payments, and its passed off to "personal responsibility"? Where does the government's responsibility factor in to this equation?

If you really wanted to pay those loans you shouldn't have let outsourcing happen, right? You shouldn't have let the government implement a privately owned bank to create our money and control inflation and deflation of the dollar, right? (this is one of the planks of communism as outlined by Marx) We get that its much bigger than corporations, the government, the banks, the police... But we have to start somewhere. Its a plan that has been set in motion by global banks to establish a one-world government. Did you hear about the North American Free Trade Agreement? The one that will mush America together with Canada and Mexico? No? Well it was signed while Bush was in office, it should be old news by now. But it was kept from the public eye because they know its a crock of shit. Don't pay attention to whats happening with your country, watch more American Idol, watch more Jersey Shore, everything is peachy keen... Until it isn't. And that time is fast approaching.

I am no one special, yet I am doing just fine, what is it that people cannot do through hard work and motivation?. Really? explain that too me. I dont see the unfairness, Yeah I am not a millionaire and I dont expect to be but i am comfortable as well as everyone i know straight out of highschool. so whats all this whining about?

"Everything is fine in my miniscule frame of reference"

Spoiler

Edited by Abradix, 24 November 2011 - 06:07 AM.

[iargue]

I see "corporations" as the modern-day scape goat. I can't recall a single instance where I was "robbed" of my money by a corporation. People cite the house-market collapse, but seem to forget that they weren't forcing people to take out loans. People came to them, asking to be loaned money. It's personal responsibility, and it seems to be a forgotten lesson.

How about every time you go to a concert, or a movie and they forbid outside food and drinks, and then if you want to buy any, charge you a 500 percent markup? That is robbing you of your money, plain and simple. If they allowed you to bring in your own food, or if they didn't charge such a huge markup on items, then it would be understandable. But they both refuse to allow outside drink, and then charge you giant sums of money because they can do it.

How about student loans? The only loan that can't be bankrupted on. The only loan that they can take out wages without a court order. Basically, if you get a student loan and can't pay it off. You just became the slave of a corporation.

There are thousands of laws written because a corporation wants it to be written. There are thousands of laws that don't exist because corporations don't want them to exist.

We have laws to prevent speeding. We have laws to prevent murder. We have laws to prevent many things that put yourself or others in harms way. And yet, we allow smoking as if it was perfectly safe. I can't drive 10 miles over the speed limit. 65 miles an hour with a seat belt on wont kill me. Smoking a cigarette will. And yet that is allowed. Its acceptable for a corporation to market death and not worry about it. I don't care who you are, or what you think, there are at least a hundred thousand studies that shows that smoking kills you. For a government to allow that, and yet forbid things that only would cause injury, simply because a corporation makes billions of dollars from it.... yeah.

I'm not saying take away peoples money. The rich earned their money, however they did it, let them keep it. But they should not be able to use that money to control the country.

[MsRose]

To Abradix:

I find it funny now to realize we're both on the same side. I think the only thing we truly disagree upon is where to take the fight. I see the people and business as victims of their own nature. Meaning, business can't be at fault for trying to make the largest profit and people can't be at fault for being human. I think who is really to blame is the government or more specifically the members of government who vote to pass unjust bills or work as a steward to businesses. A good example is the much unpublicized Hanes & Levi fiasco.

The question is how to prevent these obscenities. I think we need to put pressure on our government to pass restrictions on themselves or furthermore, have a third party to regulate them.

This why I disagree Occupy Wallstreet, because I think it should be Occupy Washington.

Spoiler

As an aside, I'm really glad you brought up that federal income taxes are unconstitutional. iirc, they had to amend the constitution to do it, in order to pay for WWII. A lot of people don't even know that at for the majority of our country's existence there was no such thing as federal income tax.

To iargue:

I'm not entirely sure where you're going with this. *smokes cigarette*

[luvsmyncis]

This why I disagree Occupy Wallstreet, because I think it should be Occupy Washington.

Every political decision made in this country is inspired by a corporation's desire. Whether it's healthcare, immigration, taxes, education... no matter what the issue is, the political motivations are backed by companies who don't care what's the best thing to do for the country, but what's the best thing to do for their own private interests. You can shout all you want at the members of congress or the senate, but the heart of the problem is corporate greed.

Cigarettes are bad for you. This is common knowledge. When the pain medication Darvocet was found to POSSIBLY increase the risk of heart problems, it was taken off the market the next day. And that was a POSSIBLY.
Study after study has shown the harm tobacco products ACTUALLY DO cause, but they're still readily available to anyone over 18. I am a smoker, and even I think it's a double standard. There have been laws passed to control the big tobacco companies. Yummy flavored cigarettes are not allowed anymore. No more cartoon character brand mascots. They will be printing ugly ass pictures of people with tar-teeth on the packages. And in a lot of places, you are no longer allowed to smoke in bars and restaurants. So, to be fair, there is SOME regulation. But there is no regulation on how much the executives at Marlboro make for selling a product people are slowly killing themselves with.

[MsRose]

Every political decision made in this country is inspired by a corporation's desire. Whether it's healthcare, immigration, taxes, education... no matter what the issue is, the political motivations are backed by companies who don't care what's the best thing to do for the country, but what's the best thing to do for their own private interests. You can shout all you want at the members of congress or the senate, but the heart of the problem is corporate greed.

So shouting at politicians makes no difference, but shouting at corporations does?

If anything I think they're less inclined to care, considering we don't elect them into their job.

[luvsmyncis]

So shouting at politicians makes no difference, but shouting at corporations does?

I never said that. I think shouting at either one makes no difference. But I do think protesting against the politicians in this situation is like attacking a ventriloquist's dummy. Certainly the puppet bares some of the blame, but never forget it's being controlled by the hand up it's ass. That hand is corporate America.

But yeah, pepper spray. Ouch.

[Frizzle]

Fuck that. Go protest about real issues, like in Syria, and deal with true police brutality.

Its hard to feel sorry for hipsters drinking Starbucks, posting from their iMacs, and not feel a pang of huge fuckinh irony.

Slaves of the corporations indeed.

[DreadPirateRoberts]

lt. john pike in A Sunday Afternoon on the Island of La Grande Jatte.

[Therion]

And they wonder why the police are hated...
"What did you do at work today honey?"
"Oooh I sprayed a few students in the face with pepper-spray for sitting in our way"
Fuck the police

Don't hate civil servants because a few of them are pricks. Hate who they take orders from, the corrupt government officials that call the shots. Most policemen, especially in other countries, are just people trying to do their job.

I say bring on the pepper spray, cases like this are exactly what the occupy movement needs to go from a movement to a revolution. More and more people are seeing just how much of their constitutional rights take a back seat to political interests.

To Abradix:

I find it funny now to realize we're both on the same side. I think the only thing we truly disagree upon is where to take the fight. I see the people and business as victims of their own nature. Meaning, business can't be at fault for trying to make the largest profit and people can't be at fault for being human. I think who is really to blame is the government or more specifically the members of government who vote to pass unjust bills or work as a steward to businesses. A good example is the much unpublicized Hanes & Levi fiasco.

The question is how to prevent these obscenities. I think we need to put pressure on our government to pass restrictions on themselves or furthermore, have a third party to regulate them.

This why I disagree Occupy Wallstreet, because I think it should be Occupy Washington.

Washington may as well be Wallstreet. Hitting wallstreet is hitting corporate greed, the same corporate greed pushing 90% of the congressional bills, attacking washington at this stage would basically be attacking the puppets. Unless you're going to boot every elected official that has ever taken 'campaign money' or worked in the private business sector, you're still going to have an issue of them voting for whoever lines their pockets, or whoever has lined their pockets in the past.

Both need to change, but a bigger initial impact will be made by shutting down wallstreet trading, even if only for a day. As for restrictions, they were there. They got removed. They'll get removed again unless there's strong enough financial regulation present that the person calling the shots cannot be bought and sold.

Edited by Therion, 24 November 2011 - 10:55 AM.

[rasdabess]

Lupe is def the friend of the people. listen to intro ( and the rest of the song too )