15 replies to this topic

[OriginalFake]

Was wondering if anyone played and wanted to play with me
Steam ID: SixBoiledFrogs

[Boggart]

Did you use to play old dota? HoN? LoL? Any opinions on it thus far?

[OriginalFake]

Did you use to play old dota? HoN? LoL? Any opinions on it thus far?

I have played WC3 DotA since like 05 I think. It is still my favorite of all the games by far, but I had to switch due to the dying community and the improved interfaces in the newer games. WC3 DotA had such a good community back when DxD and all those leagues were still around .


Before saying anything about LoL, I just want to say I've only played the game a couple times and I really hate it so excuse my biasness. I think that LoL is the worst of the games. Taking out denies was a big turnoff for me and I just didn't like the flow of the game at all. Having to unlock heroes was really annoying to me too. (I played this before HoN was ftp).

HoN tried to be a replica of WC3 DotA with better interface and graphics, but I think they messed up a lot of things. The interface was nice with lots of detail on stats like kill:death ratio and gold per minute and what not, but it created some serious stat whores who didn't care about winning as a team. Instead they would just try to pad their stats and talk shit on everyone. The concede function at 15 minutes pissed me off too. If the game wasn't going my teams way, everyone would be like "CC AT 15 YOU NOOBS" or some bullshit like that. 15 minutes was not nearly enough time to determine who had won the game, turnarounds arent as hard as people think. I think HoN had the biggest community of dipshits, which made me dislike the game.

Now DotA 2 is the sequel that completely replicated all the heroes and items from WC3 DotA (Save a few copyrighted names and whatnot). Even the game mechanics are supposed to be similar to the original. I personally quit WC3 DotA to play DotA 2 because of friends and just the community transitioning. So far it's still in Beta, but I like the updates that Valve is making with the interface and not listing out all the player stats so people can judge and assume they're better.


Sorry pretty long, but I guess playing for so long is the cause .
I decided to cutoff a lot of other stuff cause I didn't want to make you read some longass analysis LOL.

[darkwizard]

I think you touched on the largest differences between the games, but I have a small bit to add:
HoN, when it came out, was trying to copy DotA. Skill for skill, it recreated heroes with "better" graphics. iirc, the map was also almost the same. Unfortunately, the community was filled with (for the most part) the most asshatted people I know of, and if you were knew the genre, starting with HoN was the worst idea you could think of.

LoL, on the other hand, created a more accessible DotA-like game. They didn't set out to make a DotA clone, necessarily. They took away secret shop, side shops, and made the map smaller. But they completely changed many of the heroes (I mean, there are still heroes that share similarities, but for the most part these heroes are unique from DotA). Taking out denials *really* sucked, but it made the game that more accessible to people who are new to the genre. The added game mode is a nice touch imo, but if you want to play DotA with better graphics, LoL is not going to be the game for you.

DotA2 is better than HoN in the community and also how closely it resembles DotA play. It feels darker than WC3 DotA, but it is still very nice. I can't comment on it that much because I haven't spent much time playing it due to all of my friends playing LoL.

At the end of the day, I won't be able to make a decision on which is better, because they all have slight differences which people like differently.

[OriginalFake]

@darkwizard

I definitely agree with what you said, I mainly just wanted to point out the reasons on why I liked/disliked each game (As i thought that was what Boggart was asking). There are definitely aspects to each game that appeal to different groups of people. LoL's style just isn't for me and HoN's community is a huge turnoff, which leads to some big reasons why I dislike the two.

[darkwizard]

Yeah, that was completely valid, I just wanted to add more things. Honestly, though, if my friends weren't playing LoL I'd be playing DotA2, because I like the added complications and I think they add to the strategy. I basically don't recommend HoN to anybody, unless they're an asshat

[iargue]

What sucks about taking out denials?

[darkwizard]

It removes a good chunk of skill required to successfully lane against an opponent; instead of just worrying about last-hitting enemy creeps, you're worried about your own creeps (and towers). Denying the opponent gold and experience, over time, is super nice (and denying a tower is very nice regarding gold) and in higher level play is almost essential to winning the game.

Basically, having denials adds more skill/strategy. If I'm chilling with my bros then I don't mind not having denials because I can pay a lot less attention to the game and more to the conversation we're having, but I feel like transitioning from not having denials to a game where denials exists is hard, because you will fall behind.

[OriginalFake]

Going off what darkwizard said, it takes off a really big aspect of the laning phase. The laning phase is crucial early game as all the heroes need levels asap to be able to get higher level skills, gank, and push. Denying creeps plays a big role in messing up your opponent.
This is a description I found on playdota.com on the mechanics:

Whenever a unit owned by the Sentinel or Scourge is killed by an allied player, it counts as a deny, and normal experience is not granted to nearby enemy heroes.

The amount of experience enemy heroes get for a denied unit is determined by the following:
Each melee enemy hero in 1000 range of the killed unit gets 36/n experience, and each ranged enemy hero gets 18/n experience, where n is the total number of enemy heroes within 1000 range.

Example: A Sentinel player denies a Treant, there are 2 Scourge melee heroes and one Scourge ranged hero within 1000 range of the killed unit.

• Each melee hero gets 12 (36/3) experience.
• The ranged hero gets 6 (18/3) experience.

Also denying towers is huge as it cuts the other team's gold gain significantly:

Tier 1/2/3/4 respectively gives

200/240/280/320 gold if killed and 100/120/140/160 if denied. That's a huge loss for each team.

I just like the deny system overall as it makes the game more challenging and forces players to pay attention to both allie and enemy creeps.

[iargue]

Actually, denying removes a giant amount of skill needed in the game.

Last hitting is a single skillset. Regardless of its your creep, or their creep. Last hitting is last hitting. All it requires is to learn when to hit then last minion, and thats it. After a certain point, your skill will hardly increase at all in it. Who cares if you can last hit 60% of your minions, and 60% of their minions. All that you are caring about is farming, and nothing else.

In League of Legends, a whole new skillset is introduced, known as harass. Harassing is what wins or loses you a game. Imagine trying to late hit, WHILE someone else is trying to hit you. This raises the skill level needed to last hit even more. In a game with denying, even if they hit you, you just laugh because you took away their xp/gold, and even if they force you back, you will still be a level ahead. If you can't deny them any resources, while being denied a resource yourself. That's detrimental to your game play.

The largest part of League of Legends, that you clearly have never tried. Is what is known as zoning. around 60% of players never grasp this concept at all, and end up thinking the game is worse because they can't just kill every minion and win the game. Zoning requires you to keep the enemy far enough away from the creep so they cannot last hit it, or even far enough away they cannot gain xp. This is takes an extreme level of skill, because if you zone to hard, you miss your creep kills and then are just as bad off as the person you are zoning. You have to keep them zoned, while keeping up your cs count. While your doing that, you have to ensure that you do not take too much damage from minions, and you have to learn to control a lane. By properly last hitting, you can "freeze" a lane in place, so you can zone. If you autoattack minions, or screw up your last hitting, you will end up pushing the minions to their tower, where the champion can last hit from protection.

While you are busy balancing your cs, with keeping him off his, and not taking damage from a skillshot or creep harass, you also have to watch for a jungle gank. Jungle ganks can easily turn that zoned lane, into a lane that you have lost 100% and get zones in return.

With the addition of grass added.... the game far surpasses Dota in skill requires to play the game. Its no longer about a single champion, its about everything that happens in the game at once.

Watch a professional game sometime, and see the amount of work that they put into winning. Watch how quickly things can change because of such things as Dragon, or Baron, or because of a jungle gank, or a tower dive.

[darkwizard]

I'd like to argue that denying does not remove the skill of zoning, since zoning is still largely prevalent in DotA as well. Harass was not introduced in LoL either, as it is also crucial to DotA. Simply last-hitting everything isn't necessarily going to win you the game either, as you're not going to be able to push a lane, etc.

What you do bring up that is a good point is the different style of buffs that are granted in LoL -- Baron buff can make or break a game, and the bushes provide an interesting mechanic to juke enemies. (On a side note, juking is strange in DotA given the ability to run through the forests around the edge of the map)

And I don't think you were talking to me RE: pro play, but I watched most of IPL, and watch scarra's stream regularly. I thought I made the point in a previous post regarding LoL and DotA, but I'd like to state again that the games are different due to Riot taking a slightly different approach to the game, and as a result I want to avoid LoL being called a DotA clone.

Anyway, here's a fun video.



Edit: And for DotA2, here's another.

Edited by darkwizard, 09 April 2012 - 05:11 PM.

[ch33psh33p]

Actually, denying removes a giant amount of skill needed in the game.

Last hitting is a single skillset. Regardless of its your creep, or their creep. Last hitting is last hitting. All it requires is to learn when to hit then last minion, and thats it. After a certain point, your skill will hardly increase at all in it. Who cares if you can last hit 60% of your minions, and 60% of their minions. All that you are caring about is farming, and nothing else.

In League of Legends, a whole new skillset is introduced, known as harass. Harassing is what wins or loses you a game. Imagine trying to late hit, WHILE someone else is trying to hit you. This raises the skill level needed to last hit even more. In a game with denying, even if they hit you, you just laugh because you took away their xp/gold, and even if they force you back, you will still be a level ahead. If you can't deny them any resources, while being denied a resource yourself. That's detrimental to your game play.

The largest part of League of Legends, that you clearly have never tried. Is what is known as zoning. around 60% of players never grasp this concept at all, and end up thinking the game is worse because they can't just kill every minion and win the game. Zoning requires you to keep the enemy far enough away from the creep so they cannot last hit it, or even far enough away they cannot gain xp. This is takes an extreme level of skill, because if you zone to hard, you miss your creep kills and then are just as bad off as the person you are zoning. You have to keep them zoned, while keeping up your cs count. While your doing that, you have to ensure that you do not take too much damage from minions, and you have to learn to control a lane. By properly last hitting, you can "freeze" a lane in place, so you can zone. If you autoattack minions, or screw up your last hitting, you will end up pushing the minions to their tower, where the champion can last hit from protection.

While you are busy balancing your cs, with keeping him off his, and not taking damage from a skillshot or creep harass, you also have to watch for a jungle gank. Jungle ganks can easily turn that zoned lane, into a lane that you have lost 100% and get zones in return.

With the addition of grass added.... the game far surpasses Dota in skill requires to play the game. Its no longer about a single champion, its about everything that happens in the game at once.

Watch a professional game sometime, and see the amount of work that they put into winning. Watch how quickly things can change because of such things as Dragon, or Baron, or because of a jungle gank, or a tower dive.

LOL JUST LOL.

This is either the best troll ever, or you're just stupid. Harass?

Thats the fucking foundation of the laning phase.

In LoL you have harass and last hitting.

In DotA you have harassing, last hitting, and denying. Oh guess what, you know why Zoning isn't as obvious in DotA? Because creeps actually hurt. You can't simply dick around and do whatever you want with your hero, becuase you pull aggro. There's a risk and reward for Zoning, whereas in LoL its just straight up let me derp with my hero.

The rest of your post is so ignorant, I can't even begin to dissect it, because anyone can tell right away you've never played DotA at a high level, and you don't understand the laning phase of the game at all.

Please stop. Your argument is so flawed, and I can't really believe you believe anything you just said. What you said is akin to saying that we should remove defense from American Football (or any other sport in general), because it'll introduce new offensive formations. Does it? Of course. You have free fucking reign on the field with next to zero tradeoff (the only thing that can hit back in LoL is the enemy hero, whereas in DotA every creep hit like a truck early game). Is it a fucking increase in skill level? Are you fucking kidding me?

Edited by ch33psh33p, 09 April 2012 - 07:16 PM.

[OriginalFake]

As mean as ch33psh33p's post sounds, I have to agree. Competitively in DotA/DotA2 it's not uncommon for first blood to happen before the creeps even spawn. Many support heroes focus ENTIRELY on harassing and ignore last hitting altogether. It's vital for the carries to get farmed, while supports buy wards and pretty much do what their name implies.

[Pilot]

As mean as ch33psh33p's post sounds, I have to agree. Competitively in DotA/DotA2 it's not uncommon for first blood to happen before the creeps even spawn. Many support heroes focus ENTIRELY on harassing and ignore last hitting altogether. It's vital for the carries to get farmed, while supports buy wards and pretty much do what their name implies.

I'm up for some game.

[iargue]

LOL JUST LOL.

This is either the best troll ever, or you're just stupid. Harass?

Thats the fucking foundation of the laning phase.

In LoL you have harass and last hitting.

In DotA you have harassing, last hitting, and denying. Oh guess what, you know why Zoning isn't as obvious in DotA? Because creeps actually hurt. You can't simply dick around and do whatever you want with your hero, becuase you pull aggro. There's a risk and reward for Zoning, whereas in LoL its just straight up let me derp with my hero.

The rest of your post is so ignorant, I can't even begin to dissect it, because anyone can tell right away you've never played DotA at a high level, and you don't understand the laning phase of the game at all.

Please stop. Your argument is so flawed, and I can't really believe you believe anything you just said. What you said is akin to saying that we should remove defense from American Football (or any other sport in general), because it'll introduce new offensive formations. Does it? Of course. You have free fucking reign on the field with next to zero tradeoff (the only thing that can hit back in LoL is the enemy hero, whereas in DotA every creep hit like a truck early game). Is it a fucking increase in skill level? Are you fucking kidding me?

Actually, I played Dota for over a year at near professional level (I didn't want to commit too much time for it, and thus never went pro).

Its clear that you have never played LoL before. Minions deal a significant amount of damage. I've lost multiple fights because of minions, and won multiple fights because of minions. In fact, Riot had to nerf their damage because they forced too many passive lanes. They are now at a point where its a equal tradeoff. First blood also happens a lot of times way before minions spawn. Hundreds of games start with jungle invades by one team to deny another team.

Have you actually played at a higher level? If I deny a champion 5 minions, and lose 10% of my health doing it. I will gain level 2 faster then him, which then gives me a 10% health advantage over him, as well as an damage advantage. If I do the same thing and get level 3 at 10 kills more then him, I will then have 15% more health then him, and more damage then him. I can repeat this until the point that I can just hill him when he comes to harass me. Denying is and always will be better then attacking the enemy champion. Those that did not understand this, never excelled to the point where they should have. Health can be regened, experience cannot.

As mean as ch33psh33p's post sounds, I have to agree. Competitively in DotA/DotA2 it's not uncommon for first blood to happen before the creeps even spawn. Many support heroes focus ENTIRELY on harassing and ignore last hitting altogether. It's vital for the carries to get farmed, while supports buy wards and pretty much do what their name implies.

In Lol, the same thing happens. Support in bottom lane pick up Gp5 items and harass/heal in their lane while letting the Ranged AD take all of the creep kills. First blood in the jungle before the start of the match happens all of the time. Its also vital in Lol for carries to get farmed. Nothing at all that you have said doesn't exist in LoL. In fact, LoL adds a new element, because the supports can hide in the grass, and harass you without you being able to attack them.This forces you to ward there, or forces you to miss out on last hits for fear of being stunned by the support and nuked by the AD carry.

[OriginalFake]

@iargue you say you played almost professionally, in what league or tournament did you play? The reason i ask this is because I find it hard to believe that you played near professional DotA, while explaining to us that LoL has "harass and zoning" even though DotA had this as well. DotA actually invented these concepts (Though no one calls it zoning). I'm also confused about what you mean about denying 5 minions because I though LoL had no deny system
In other news, me and pilot played some fun games anybody else wanna play?