58 replies to this topic

[Maeghan]

Spoiler

The epilogue in the final book is retarded. Skip it. Youll thank me.

Edited by Maeghan, 28 June 2012 - 03:16 AM.

[Random]

Can't wait until my negs recharge.

[Shwag]

Spoiler

The epilogue in the final book is retarded. Skip it. Youll thank me.

I don't think that deserved spoiler tags, it's the best advice I've seen in this thread, by far.

[iargue]

What does that even mean?

I meant thread, sorry, not book.

[KaibaSama]

On the same note, spells can be cast under the invisibility cloak, why did harry never take advantage of this?

He did actually, by casting the imperious curse in Gringgots at the goblins when Hermonie impersonated Bellatrix. In both the movie and the book he was under the cloak.

Why do they just drop it on the ground and completely forget about it and just leave it lying around?

I'm going to assume you mean "what happens", they can still find it when Harry gets it in book 1 he can pull it out of his trunk just fine and it's visible (it seems to only be invisible when it's being worn). As for the "dropping it on the ground and forgetting about it", that happens in book 3 when they leave it at the foot of the womping willow (the attacking tree). Snape finds it and uses it to follow the trio secretly into the Shrieking Shack where Sirius Black is.

You can use an simple charm to make yourself completely invisible, and most spells require you to hit the target, why was this spell not used at all to help in a duel? Being invisible would help ALOT without protection

Fred and George created "shield cloaks and hats" that you could wear durring a duel and spells would bounce off of you when you were wearing it. The disillusonment charm is extremely complicated, I believe only Tonks has used it in book 5 when they take Harry to Grimulad place. (Tonks is a auror, a dark wizard catcher and a powerful witch.)

Edited by Satsuki, 28 June 2012 - 08:42 AM.

[iargue]

Ethics. You shouldn't force people to undergo a magical procedure.



If "The Thieves Downfall" removes all enchantments, why do you think it can be enchanted to work elsewhere?
Gringotts aren't going to allow any old so-and-so to be magically moving through a part of their catacombs.



It's extremely hard to make yourself completely invisible using a disillusionment charm. The time would be better spent on other defensive or offensive spells.
Harry is an idiot, welcome to the series.



See above.



It's widely agreed that the story of The Three Brothers is just a fairytale, and that the Deathly Hallows were really just made by a very powerful family of old wizards.

Glad we cleared that up.

What do you mean? They already force them to undergo a magical procedure. FFS, they flush them down toilets to get to the ministry.

Goblins are majorly inspired by gold. If you entice them properly, they would change their bank so that part isn't part of the bank, and you could use it for your purposes. You and also create a portal in the ground that the enchanted water falls into, and have it teleport somewhere. Or you could perhaps just bottle the water and sprinkle it on people and it would work as well. In a world of magic, there are millions of possible ways to get things done.

Why would Voldemort and Dumbledore not use it? They were powerful enough to make themselves completely invisible. You also don't have to make yourself 100% invisible, just enough that its much harder to hit, and its much easier to hide. Even if your leg is showing, you can put it behind a pillar, or stick it out to the left and cause people to miss. Its a huge advantage.

Yes, Harry is an idiot. Herminone is not though. Why would she let them just leave the cloak behind so carelessly?


And what makes the Cloak better then all of the other ones. Since its supposed to be created magically better then all others, the only difference in it from any others, is that the accio charm doesn't affect it, and it doesn't wear out over time. The pebble brings back the fucking dead, and wand is supposed to be undefeatable (Yet dumbledore beat it, ruining that concept). Since the cloak is meant to be the best of the three in the books, shouldn't it be more effective then just not wearing out?

[Nymh]

He did actually, by casting the imperious curse in Gringgots at the goblins when Hermonie impersonated Bellatrix. In both the movie and the book he was under the cloak.


I'm going to assume you mean "what happens", they can still find it when Harry gets it in book 1 he can pull it out of his trunk just fine and it's visible. As for the "dropping it on the ground and forgetting about it", that happens in book 3 when they leave it at the foot of the womping willow (the attacking tree). Snape finds it and uses it to follow the trio secretly into the Shrieking Shack where Sirius Black is.

It happens in the first book too

Spoiler

at the top of the tower when they send the dragon off

so I guess they're kind of careless with it huh

I meant thread, sorry, not book.

Read ALL the threads!

[iargue]

He did actually, by casting the imperious curse in Gringgots at the goblins when Hermonie impersonated Bellatrix. In both the movie and the book he was under the cloak.


I'm going to assume you mean "what happens", they can still find it when Harry gets it in book 1 he can pull it out of his trunk just fine and it's visible. As for the "dropping it on the ground and forgetting about it", that happens in book 3 when they leave it at the foot of the womping willow (the attacking tree). Snape finds it and uses it to follow the trio secretly into the Shrieking Shack where Sirius Black is.

Yes. And in book one he throws it off and confronts Voldemort and his pet. In book 3 he throws it off and confronts black. In book 6 he throws it off and confronts snape. In book 7 he throws it off and confronts voldemort. With hundreds of missed chances, and one actual use (Where he was told to be the goblin anyways) it makes him retarded.

And no. I asked why are they just forgetting about it? Why does harry potter not stuff it in his pocket? Instead he is like "Ohhhh. Something shiny! Bye invisibility" and just leaves it lying around as if it had no value at all. Given the millions of times he had wished he was invisible, shouldn't this put more weight on keeping it close by?

[KaibaSama]

Its Harry Potter, he's not the brains of the trio, just the guy who goes: "I HAVE TO SAVE PEOPLE AND STUFF". When you're in a life threating satiation as they usually are (or a stupid first year) it's easy to not care about what you do with the thing. As for book 1, I don't have any memory of him meeting voldemort with the cloak on, he uses it in the library but when he meets Voldemort at the end with the mirror of erised he isn't wearing it (he only wore it when they were going to the forbidden corridor, he left it at the foot of fluffy the giant 3 headed dog).

[Bone]

I am having trouble wrapping my head around how fucking ridiculous this thread is.

[Alodielle]

Looks like you guys are reinventing the wheel here:

http://shareranks.co...TTER-PLOT-HOLES

There are so many websites dedicated to both pointing out and explaining away plot holes... and there are many more than just what I've seen in this thread.

Bottom line is, the explanations are all up for grabs, because the world Rowling created is so complex that much is and can be left to the imagination. It's part of her genius. I'm sure if a fiction book were written on teens in modern America that was read by the wizards of Hogwarts who were unfamiliar with Muggles, they'd find "plot holes" all over the place that we could explain away with the knowledge of our society that they lack.

[Sweeney]

What do you mean? They already force them to undergo a magical procedure. FFS, they flush them down toilets to get to the ministry.

They're not forced to do that. They can use the elevator instead, if they prefer.

Goblins are majorly inspired by gold. If you entice them properly, they would change their bank so that part isn't part of the bank, and you could use it for your purposes. You and also create a portal in the ground that the enchanted water falls into, and have it teleport somewhere. Or you could perhaps just bottle the water and sprinkle it on people and it would work as well. In a world of magic, there are millions of possible ways to get things done.

There are also a million ways it can be explained for those ideas not to work. Because it's fictional.
It's not inexplicable, it's just unexplained.

Why would Voldemort and Dumbledore not use it? They were powerful enough to make themselves completely invisible. You also don't have to make yourself 100% invisible, just enough that its much harder to hit, and its much easier to hide. Even if your leg is showing, you can put it behind a pillar, or stick it out to the left and cause people to miss. Its a huge advantage.

If you know that your opponent is there, and has cast an invisibility spell on themselves, you can remove it. With magic.

Yes, Harry is an idiot. Herminone is not though. Why would she let them just leave the cloak behind so carelessly?

When has Hermione left the cloak behind? Or been present when it was left behind by anyone else?

And what makes the Cloak better then all of the other ones. Since its supposed to be created magically better then all others, the only difference in it from any others, is that the accio charm doesn't affect it, and it doesn't wear out over time. The pebble brings back the fucking dead, and wand is supposed to be undefeatable (Yet dumbledore beat it, ruining that concept). Since the cloak is meant to be the best of the three in the books, shouldn't it be more effective then just not wearing out?

It's not just immune to the accio charm, it's immune to all charms. And it's a cloak of perfect invisibility, which doesn't exist at all anywhere else. It's unique. Isn't that special enough?

[pyke]

It's a fictional world of magic. This is the same as saying "Why don't they turn back time, they have the means" for every single event of the story. Some shit is just not going to hold up to a lot of scrutiny.

[iargue]

They're not forced to do that. They can use the elevator instead, if they prefer.

The elevator to the ministry is for visitors only, as stated in Book 5. In Book 7, all ministry employees need coins, and have to flush themselves down a toilet to get to the ministry.

There are also a million ways it can be explained for those ideas not to work. Because it's fictional.
It's not inexplicable, it's just unexplained.

The lack of any attempt to prevent the imperious charm is what bothers me the most though.

If you know that your opponent is there, and has cast an invisibility spell on themselves, you can remove it. With magic.

And when you know you will be going in to face an opponent? For instance, Dumbledore knew he would be fighting in Book 5 when he went to the ministry. Why did he not cast an disillusionment charm then? He would have gotten first strike with no one even knowing that he was there.

When has Hermione left the cloak behind? Or been present when it was left behind by anyone else?

Book 1. Left at the top of the tower.
Book 3: Left in the shrieking shack before they confronted sirius.

Those are the times I remember off the top of my head. Maybe there are others, but this shows my point.

It's not just immune to the accio charm, it's immune to all charms. And it's a cloak of perfect invisibility, which doesn't exist at all anywhere else. It's unique. Isn't that special enough?

A)Its not immune to all charms. Dumbledore hits harry will a spell through the cloak in Book 6
B)Cloaks of invisibility do exist. They were using them in Book 5 to guard the prophecy.
C)Its not perfect, mad eye's magical eye sees right through it. The Marauders map (created by students) can see people under it.

It's a fictional world of magic. This is the same as saying "Why don't they turn back time, they have the means" for every single event of the story. Some shit is just not going to hold up to a lot of scrutiny.

Because you can't visit the same place as you did before you turned back time, as explained in book 2.

[Nymh]

When has Hermione left the cloak behind? Or been present when it was left behind by anyone else?

Hermione was with Harry when they passed off the dragon to Ron's brother and forgot the cloak. Ron was in the infirmary from getting bitten.

[iargue]

Hermione was with Harry when they passed off the dragon to Ron's brother and forgot the cloak. Ron was in the infirmary from getting bitten.

too slow.

Also, have you only read book 1, or is that the first example you thought of?

[Nymh]

too slow.

Also, have you only read book 1, or is that the first example you thought of?

I've only read book one

[Sweeney]

The elevator to the ministry is for visitors only, as stated in Book 5. In Book 7, all ministry employees need coins, and have to flush themselves down a toilet to get to the ministry.

It's the visitors' entrance. It's not only for visitors. If an employee didn't want to use the main entrance, they would use the visitors'.
Even if they couldn't, they can always quit. It's not a forced procedure.

The lack of any attempt to prevent the imperious charm is what bothers me the most though.

Maybe it just wasn't mentioned. There's only so much space.

And when you know you will be going in to face an opponent? For instance, Dumbledore knew he would be fighting in Book 5 when he went to the ministry. Why did he not cast an disillusionment charm then? He would have gotten first strike with no one even knowing that he was there.

Dumbledore's goal has never been to kill Voldemort, and Voldemort wouldn't have revealed himself unless he knew Dumbledore or Harry was there anyway.

Book 1. Left at the top of the tower.
Book 3: Left in the shrieking shack before they confronted sirius.

Those are the times I remember off the top of my head. Maybe there are others, but this shows my point.

In Book 1, they forgot the cloak. So that's once in seven years...
In Book 3, Hermione was out of her mind with fear for Ron. If you recall, she couldn't even figure out how to deactive the Whomping Willow. Hardly makes your point at all.

A)Its not immune to all charms. Dumbledore hits harry will a spell through the cloak in Book 6
B)Cloaks of invisibility do exist. They were using them in Book 5 to guard the prophecy.
C)Its not perfect, mad eye's magical eye sees right through it. The Marauders map (created by students) can see people under it.

I didn't know Harry was the cloak... It's not spellproof, like a shield, it just can't be affected by magic itself.
Cloaks of perfect invisibility do not exist in the HP canon. Dumbledore and Moody make this clear.
Moody's eye and the Marauder's Map are other unique items of unusual power. Not relevant.

[Shwag]

It's the visitors' entrance. It's not only for visitors. If an employee didn't want to use the main entrance, they would use the visitors'.
Even if they couldn't, they can always quit. It's not a forced procedure.

They can also use the floo powder through the fireplace. If you recall in the 5th movie after the dumbledore/voldemort fight, many employees arrive through that way as voldemort leaves.

[Stebo]

I'm not sure how satisfying this answer is, but here's the best answer I've found to your first question:

In a world that has both the capacity to read other people's minds, and a truth potion so powerful that a few drops has them spilling their inner most secrets. Why do they have normal trials relying on witnesses and questioning?

J. K. Rowling was asked why Veritaserum wasn't used to establish whether or not Sirius Black was guilty.

Veritaserum works best upon the unsuspecting, the vulnerable and those insufficiently skilled (in one way or another) to protect themselves against it. Barty Crouch had been attacked before the potion was given to him and was still very groggy, otherwise he could have employed a range of measures against the Potion - he might have sealed his own throat and faked a declaration of innocence, transformed the Potion into something else before it touched his lips, or employed Occlumency against its effects. In other words, just like every other kind of magic within the books, Veritaserum is not infallible. As some wizards can prevent themselves being affected, and others cannot, it is an unfair and unreliable tool to use at a trial.

Sirius might have volunteered to take the potion had he been given the chance, but he was never offered it. Mr. Crouch senior, power mad and increasingly unjust in the way he was treating suspects, threw him into Azkaban on the (admittedly rather convincing) testimony of many eyewitnesses. The sad fact is that even if Sirius had told the truth under the influence of the Potion, Mr. Crouch could still have insisted that he was using trickery to render himself immune to it.[1]

http://www.the-leaky...dditional_Canon

Edited by Stebo, 28 June 2012 - 12:59 PM.

[Alodielle]

I'm not sure how satisfying this answer is, but here's the best answer I've found to your first question:

http://www.the-leaky...dditional_Canon

See? Utter brilliance. This is what I meant: there are nuances about magic, spells, potions, and politics in the world of Harry Potter of which we as the reader are unaware. There was no place in the books where it would have been appropriate for her to put this explanation for all to see, yet it works flawlessly once explained to us.

[onlyme]

Spoiler

[iargue]

It's the visitors' entrance. It's not only for visitors. If an employee didn't want to use the main entrance, they would use the visitors'.
Even if they couldn't, they can always quit. It's not a forced procedure.

"They can always quit" is an argument against your original argument that its "forced" upon you. They don't have to go through the water fall, they can always quit. (I don't give a shit about people visiting, they don't have power like people that work their do)

Maybe it just wasn't mentioned. There's only so much space.

They break into the ministry of magic in the 7th book. No method was used to stop them from sneaking in except for tokens which could be stolen. They didn't even employ secrecy sensors which is basic level shit.

Dumbledore's goal has never been to kill Voldemort, and Voldemort wouldn't have revealed himself unless he knew Dumbledore or Harry was there anyway.

Who said anything about kill? He can land a perfect stunning charm on him which he wouldn't see coming. Voldemort would have jumped on an opportunity to kill Harry Potter without Dumbledore being there, especially since Dumbledore is the only one he ever feared. Even so, it would have given him a huge advantage in the first fight, and probably saved Sirius given that everyone would be trying to stop the invisible guy from stunning them.

In Book 1, they forgot the cloak. So that's once in seven years...
In Book 3, Hermione was out of her mind with fear for Ron. If you recall, she couldn't even figure out how to deactive the Whomping Willow. Hardly makes your point at all.

So your saying the frequency at which they ignore the cloak makes a point? I haven't left my phone behind in more then 7 years, and its not nearly as awesome as an invisibility cloak.

I didn't know Harry was the cloak... It's not spellproof, like a shield, it just can't be affected by magic itself.
Cloaks of perfect invisibility do not exist in the HP canon. Dumbledore and Moody make this clear.
Moody's eye and the Marauder's Map are other unique items of unusual power. Not relevant.

So your concept is that its an powerful peace of magic, but Moody's Eye is more power, and a bunch of student made an more power object then this person managed to make?

I'm not sure how satisfying this answer is, but here's the best answer I've found to your first question:

I can see that as being a defense against surprising it on people. I don't think that a prisoner could transform it into something else without a wand. Even so, that is only a defense against the guilty. It would be the same as a lie detector test today. Prove your innocence by taking a test. I never said it should be forced on people, but why would innocent people never be given a chance to prove themselves? Legilimency also would have proven very useful at proving people's innocence.

They can also use the floo powder through the fireplace. If you recall in the 5th movie after the dumbledore/voldemort fight, many employees arrive through that way as voldemort leaves.

A)That still stands against his original argument that says "You can force magic on someone"
B)In Book 7 that was eliminated and you had to be flushed into the ministry