71 replies to this topic

[WharfRat]

this is exactly what is wrong with science.

You cannot take a study about an opinion and try to turn it into science. Unless you did with with every single human on earth, your results will never be accurate or correct.

Clearly you've never taken a class on elementary statistics or statistical methods or statistical analysis... In fact, there is an entire branch of applied mathematics that does just this! It's called a representative sample. I didn't bother to look at the study linked to as I don't really care about the money discussion. However, if you want to pick apart the study, I'd probably be interested to know how they measured the happiness of the individuals in giving vs. receiving.

[8143FF763271]

That's pleasure, not happiness.

Is happiness not defined by pleasure and comfort?

[Bone]

Is happiness not defined by pleasure and comfort?

No, it's not.

[8143FF763271]

No, it's not.

Definition for happiness:
Web definitions: state of well-being characterized by emotions ranging from contentment to intense joy.

Sounds like pleasure to me.

[Sweeney]

Sounds like pleasure to me.

We've addressed the reliability of your opinions already.

[8143FF763271]

We've addressed the reliability of your opinions already.

I'm guessing that if I correct you and show that there's nothing wrong or controversial with my assessment of happiness as pleasure you will accuse me of being condescending and willfully misinterpreting your points.

[Sweeney]

I'm guessing that if I correct you and show that there's nothing wrong or controversial with my assessment of happiness as pleasure you will accuse me of being condescending and willfully misinterpreting your points.

You can try.

[Nymh]

I'm guessing that if I correct you and show that there's nothing wrong or controversial with my assessment of happiness as pleasure you will accuse me of being condescending and willfully misinterpreting your points.

No correction necessary, you are already condescending and willfully misinterpreting people's points. Pretty much across the board.

[8143FF763271]

You can try.

There are two set of stimuli in the world. Those that bring us pleasure (experiences we enjoy) and those that don't (experiences we don't enjoy). When we do something, it's because it will:
A) Bring us some sort of pleasure (any feeling we find intrinsically desirable).
B) Abstain us from pain (comfort).

If being happy is defined by the dictionary as:
Definition of happy

adjective (happier, happiest)

• 
  1feeling or showing pleasure or contentment: Melissa came in looking happy and excited

and
Definition for happiness:
Web definitions: state of well-being characterized by emotions ranging from contentment to intense joy.

Then how can we possibly deny that happiness isn't defined by the attainment of pleasurable emotions? How is it not defined by feeling good? Would happiness be happiness if it didn't feel good?

[Sweeney]

Happiness is caused by pleasure, sure, but not defined by it.

My happiness is not constrained by the pleasure I experience externally.

[8143FF763271]

Happiness is caused by pleasure, sure, but not defined by it.

My happiness is not constrained by the pleasure I experience externally.

How would that be happiness if it didn't provide pleasure?

[Bone]

How would that be happiness if it didn't provide pleasure?

Accomplishment, fulfillment, purpose, etc.

[8143FF763271]

Accomplishment, fulfillment, purpose, etc.

Why would you want to fulfill or accomplish something if accomplishing things didn't bring you pleasure?

[Bone]

Why would you want to fulfill or accomplish something if accomplishing things didn't bring you pleasure?

Because happiness isn't limited to pleasure.

[8143FF763271]

Because happiness isn't limited to pleasure.

So you accomplish things with no reason? You just go on accomplishing things and you don't enjoy it nor get any reward from it that feels good? How would that even count as happiness?

[Bone]

So you accomplish things with no reason? You just go on accomplishing things and you don't enjoy it nor get any reward from it that feels good? How would that even count as happiness?

Decent people are generally motivated by more than pleasure. It looks like you fail to understand or acknowledge the distinction between happiness and pleasure, so I'll stop wasting my time with you.

[8143FF763271]

Decent people are generally motivated by more than pleasure. It looks like you fail to understand or acknowledge the distinction between happiness and pleasure, so I'll stop wasting my time with you.

I'm waiting for you to define that distinction but it seems like you're unable to do so.

[Frizzle]

Is psychology not a science of opinion?
Psychology is hardly a legitimate "hard science".

wut

[iargue]

I'm waiting for you to define that distinction but it seems like you're unable to do so.

I will provide you with a direct distinction between happiness and pleasure.

Right now, I am experiencing zero forms of pleasure. The temperature is normal, the chair is not hard, but not super comfy. I'm sitting in front of a screen in normal lighting. nothing about the scenario is pleasurable, but I am happy. I have a smile on my face, because I'm happy were I am in my life, and happy with where my life is going. Nothing is giving me pleasure, but I am a happy person.

Another prime example. Your working on installing a fence around your house, so you new born son will have a place to play at. You wake up at 6 am (ugh) and spend the next 6 hours putting together pieces of wood. You then take a break, eat, kiss your wife, and then spend the rest of the day digging up the ground, and putting the fence into the ground. Your hands are muddy, you have a splinter from the wood, and you smashed one of your toes by mistake. At the end of the day, the work is completely, and you take a shower, eat, and then go to bed because you are exhausted. You fall into bed, your wife curls up with you, and you start to drift off to sleep, with a smile on your face. You certainly are not getting any pleasure, you body aches, you toe hurts like hell, but your happy.

Pleasure on the other hand does not always result in happiness. I'll give you an real life example.

I was once given a chance to have sex with a girl on a purely casual basis. Having just been dumped and feeling down, I agreed to it. The sex was good, and she was hot. Afterwards she just left though, and I felt nothing but resentment. It felt nothing at all like the times were I had slept with my ex, and then held her in my arms while we both watched tv or slept. I didn't feel happy like I did then. I had pleasure, but no happiness, just loneliness.


I also completely resent that you will grow tired of your husband/life. My parents have been married for over 30 years now. They still have sex, still go on vacations together, and still cook dinner for each other and snuggle up on the couch and watch tv together. They might not be crazy obsessively in love as they were when they were teenagers, but the damn well do still love each other. that's how I will always base my future relationships on, and how I will always view love as, no matter how other people try and portray it as.

tl;dr: Pleasure is not happiness. Real love doesn't fade.

[Random]

I will provide you with a direct distinction between happiness and pleasure.

Right now, I am experiencing zero forms of pleasure. The temperature is normal, the chair is not hard, but not super comfy. I'm sitting in front of a screen in normal lighting. nothing about the scenario is pleasurable, but I am happy. I have a smile on my face, because I'm happy were I am in my life, and happy with where my life is going. Nothing is giving me pleasure, but I am a happy person.

Another prime example. Your working on installing a fence around your house, so you new born son will have a place to play at. You wake up at 6 am (ugh) and spend the next 6 hours putting together pieces of wood. You then take a break, eat, kiss your wife, and then spend the rest of the day digging up the ground, and putting the fence into the ground. Your hands are muddy, you have a splinter from the wood, and you smashed one of your toes by mistake. At the end of the day, the work is completely, and you take a shower, eat, and then go to bed because you are exhausted. You fall into bed, your wife curls up with you, and you start to drift off to sleep, with a smile on your face. You certainly are not getting any pleasure, you body aches, you toe hurts like hell, but your happy.

Pleasure on the other hand does not always result in happiness. I'll give you an real life example.

I was once given a chance to have sex with a girl on a purely casual basis. Having just been dumped and feeling down, I agreed to it. The sex was good, and she was hot. Afterwards she just left though, and I felt nothing but resentment. It felt nothing at all like the times were I had slept with my ex, and then held her in my arms while we both watched tv or slept. I didn't feel happy like I did then. I had pleasure, but no happiness, just loneliness.


I also completely resent that you will grow tired of your husband/life. My parents have been married for over 30 years now. They still have sex, still go on vacations together, and still cook dinner for each other and snuggle up on the couch and watch tv together. They might not be crazy obsessively in love as they were when they were teenagers, but the damn well do still love each other. that's how I will always base my future relationships on, and how I will always view love as, no matter how other people try and portray it as.

tl;dr: Pleasure is not happiness. Real love doesn't fade.

[Turnip]

Obviously nothing but money won't bring you happiness (unless you're some sort of collector), but it can certainly help support your overall well being and things that can bring you happiness!! Like funding your expensive hobbies or things to do with your lover/kids/friends/all thattt~

Plus, I doubt I would be happy if I couldn't afford food/rent/bills/internet!!~

[redlion]

So you accomplish things with no reason? You just go on accomplishing things and you don't enjoy it nor get any reward from it that feels good? How would that even count as happiness?

No, he already stated various reasons. Accomplishment, fulfillment, self-worth. Admittedly, many of these are often accompanied by pleasure, but not necessarily. It's easy to think of counter-examples, which you seem unwilling to assume in an intellectually honest manner.

I can be happy and feel patriotic because my country won a war, even though I get no pleasure out of it. I can feel accomplished because I keep my kid out of an orphanage, even though I hate the lil fucker. Etc, etc.

[Jakerz]

Money is the means to happiness, but it does not directly equal happiness.

You will be happier if you never have to worry about paying your bills. You will be happier if you never have to work another day (Note: This is never HAVE to. If you love doing something, you can do it, but if you don't want to do it one day, you can say fuck it, without worry).

On the other hand, there are hundreds of things that can make you happy without money. Money can definitely make a person happy, but there is never a single method of being happy, its all about the person themselves.


I can assure you one thing though. Bill Gates is fucking happy.

Perfectly worded right here

[8143FF763271]

I will provide you with a direct distinction between happiness and pleasure.

Right now, I am experiencing zero forms of pleasure. The temperature is normal, the chair is not hard, but not super comfy. I'm sitting in front of a screen in normal lighting. nothing about the scenario is pleasurable, but I am happy. I have a smile on my face, because I'm happy were I am in my life, and happy with where my life is going. Nothing is giving me pleasure, but I am a happy person.

Another prime example. Your working on installing a fence around your house, so you new born son will have a place to play at. You wake up at 6 am (ugh) and spend the next 6 hours putting together pieces of wood. You then take a break, eat, kiss your wife, and then spend the rest of the day digging up the ground, and putting the fence into the ground. Your hands are muddy, you have a splinter from the wood, and you smashed one of your toes by mistake. At the end of the day, the work is completely, and you take a shower, eat, and then go to bed because you are exhausted. You fall into bed, your wife curls up with you, and you start to drift off to sleep, with a smile on your face. You certainly are not getting any pleasure, you body aches, you toe hurts like hell, but your happy.

Pleasure on the other hand does not always result in happiness. I'll give you an real life example.

I was once given a chance to have sex with a girl on a purely casual basis. Having just been dumped and feeling down, I agreed to it. The sex was good, and she was hot. Afterwards she just left though, and I felt nothing but resentment. It felt nothing at all like the times were I had slept with my ex, and then held her in my arms while we both watched tv or slept. I didn't feel happy like I did then. I had pleasure, but no happiness, just loneliness.


I also completely resent that you will grow tired of your husband/life. My parents have been married for over 30 years now. They still have sex, still go on vacations together, and still cook dinner for each other and snuggle up on the couch and watch tv together. They might not be crazy obsessively in love as they were when they were teenagers, but the damn well do still love each other. that's how I will always base my future relationships on, and how I will always view love as, no matter how other people try and portray it as.

tl;dr: Pleasure is not happiness. Real love doesn't fade.

I already noted this distinction earlier and called it comfort (i.e. abstaining from pain). Being comfortable somewhere in your life or, rather, being content or satisfied (what you define as "happiness") means that you have a regular supply of pleasure/avoidance of pain. Granted, if your wife or your kids didn't bring you pleasure or prevent pain, there'd be no reason to go to bed with a smile because you installed a fence for them. Or do you think slaves happily install fences for their slave owners? It always boils down to pleasure. We feel happiness on an individual basis, our happiness is our own. We experience it alone, just like we experience all sensations alone. Happiness, by definition, has to be something that feels good to us, so it has to involve pleasure regardless. What you define as happiness (comfort) without pleasure is ennui and misery.

Likewise, people who last 30 years in marriage just offer each other comfort. They may not want each other and may not provide significant pleasure to each other, but they have more pleasure together than they would have if they weren't together. Thus, they avoid pain.

All love fades. Faded love is just better than loneliness. All happiness is pleasure. People just exert pleasure from different sources.

Edited by kami12, 15 August 2012 - 11:55 AM.

[grapes]

Money = comics & video games = happiness. Period.