334 replies to this topic

[NeoVix]

To me, feminism means, wanting equality between genders. And not much more. As such yes, I believe blokes can be feminists.

 

Feminism these days though seems to be a dirty word, because of how its evolved into all iof this ridiculous stuff like feminist groups reckoning terms such as 'love' are sexist and should be banned, a guy holding a door open for a woman is demeaning to the woman, and appearing to look for any reason to scream sexism. I would not associate myself with idiots like that.

 

I also don't believe in the recent trend of 'women only shortlists' for jobs and such. Yes, some jobs have a shortage of women, but I fully believe that the best person for the job should be picked, regardless of whats inbetween their legs.

 

I disagree with discrimination, but also reverse discrimination. In all cases.

Edited by Vicky87, 26 April 2015 - 06:01 AM.

[pancakemachine]

I agree that men and women should be equal but in reality that isn't possible. I read an argument about the fair pay act, and yes women make 77 cents to every dollar men make, but if you look at the other statistics, like who normally stays home with the kids or quits there job to raise kids it tends to be the women now one major reason the pay is so different is while women quit for the time being men are still there and get raises as their seniority rises, and after a while women  often decide they want to work again  and guess what they get hired on but have to start from the bottom again making less because they don't have the seniority that a man who is already working has. Which if we lived in a world where someone could walk right in and make as much as someone who has worked somewhere 10 years I honestly wouldn't want to be in it anymore.

[Bone]

I agree that men and women should be equal but in reality that isn't possible. I read an argument about the fair pay act, and yes women make 77 cents to every dollar men make, but if you look at the other statistics, like who normally stays home with the kids or quits there job to raise kids it tends to be the women now one major reason the pay is so different is while women quit for the time being men are still there and get raises as their seniority rises, and after a while women  often decide they want to work again  and guess what they get hired on but have to start from the bottom again making less because they don't have the seniority that a man who is already working has. Which if we lived in a world where someone could walk right in and make as much as someone who has worked somewhere 10 years I honestly wouldn't want to be in it anymore.

 

These are some nice talking points, but they're pretty hard to take seriously without some kind of substantiation. Do you have any evidence for your explanation of the gender pay gap?

[Frizzle]

http://www.forbes.co...equal-pay-myth/

Basically it was an old study that compared all money made by men and all money made by women.

Bare in mind men take more dangerous jobs, usually have seniority as they're prepared to barter and negotiate for better pay/promotions, are better educated and don't take years out to have kids.

[Bone]

http://www.forbes.co...equal-pay-myth/

Basically it was an old study that compared all money made by men and all money made by women.

Bare in mind men take more dangerous jobs, usually have seniority as they're prepared to barter and negotiate for better pay/promotions, are better educated and don't take years out to have kids.

 

This might sound silly, but the wikipedia article for the gender pay gap in the US actually has a very nuanced evaluation of the issue. The section I've linked to discusses some interesting studies.

 

Basically, there is a gender pay gap, but it has a lot of sources that are difficult to disentangle. Discrimination plays a relatively small role, but (in my opinion) enough to strive to eliminate.

[stretch]

http://www.forbes.co...equal-pay-myth/

Basically it was an old study that compared all money made by men and all money made by women.

Bare in mind men take more dangerous jobs, usually have seniority as they're prepared to barter and negotiate for better pay/promotions, are better educated and don't take years out to have kids.

 

The problem with the discussion of the pay gap is that people seem to oversimplify it to "women are paid less for the same jobs as men." In a lot of industries and workplaces, that's not true. However, the pay gap exists due to a subtle sexism prevalent in industry and society, where it can be difficult for a woman to first enter an industry that is male-dominated and to rise up when there are fewer successful female figures in that industry. For example, it's not as if the super successful part of the tech sector really doesn't wanna hire any women, but it can be daunting for women to get a computer engineering education or to otherwise penetrate those job markets when there are fewer women there to begin with. The fact that the United States doesn't even do unpaid paternity leave (and yeah, paid maternity leave) is actually a real problem.

[pancakemachine]

These are some nice talking points, but they're pretty hard to take seriously without some kind of substantiation. Do you have any evidence for your explanation of the gender pay gap?

I have sources but in the form of a textbook from my sociology class i'll do some digging online though and provide plenty

 

 

edit: https://mises.org/li...ender-wage-gap�

 

 

sums it up pretty well

Edited by pancakemachine, 16 May 2015 - 09:29 AM.

[Kaddict]

The problem with the discussion of the pay gap is that people seem to oversimplify it to "women are paid less for the same jobs as men." In a lot of industries and workplaces, that's not true. However, the pay gap exists due to a subtle sexism prevalent in industry and society, where it can be difficult for a woman to first enter an industry that is male-dominated and to rise up when there are fewer successful female figures in that industry. For example, it's not as if the super successful part of the tech sector really doesn't wanna hire any women, but it can be daunting for women to get a computer engineering education or to otherwise penetrate those job markets when there are fewer women there to begin with. The fact that the United States doesn't even do unpaid paternity leave (and yeah, paid maternity leave) is actually a real problem.

hehe... penetrate.

But honestly, I feel paternity leave is kinda unnecessary. I don't really understand why this is becoming a thing. Dads can't do anything that a babysitter couldn't do. Maybe I am the only one who feels this way though.

[Karla]

Didn't I use the wikipedia article earlier in this page to argue for feminism? lol

 

Wikipedia isn't always a reliable source.

[Kaddict]

Wikipedia isn't always a reliable source.

Wiki is reliable, except for writer's bias. For pretty much anything, there are studies that contradict one another, so a writer of wiki could use peer reviewed studies to prove his/her point, purposefully not including contradictory evidence. Otherwise, wiki is pretty dang great.

[Bone]

Didn't I use the wikipedia article earlier in this page to argue for feminism? lol

 

I just used it to argue for feminism, too.

 

And yeah, if you read critically Wikipedia isn't a bad source of information for anything non-academic

[Kaddict]

Problem is, I could go on the Wikipedia article right now and fill it with crap. This is the debate forum, so sources should be academic and not as volatile as Wikipedia. 

But that isn't the case for most wiki pages. Most wiki pages even have a disclaimer if a post isn't validated. Wikipedia is the most peer reviewed anything out there.

[pancakemachine]

hehe... penetrate.

But honestly, I feel paternity leave is kinda unnecessary. I don't really understand why this is becoming a thing. Dads can't do anything that a babysitter couldn't do. Maybe I am the only one who feels this way though.

then whats the use for maternity leave nothing a  bottle and a babysitter couldn't do 

[Bone]

Problem is, I could go on the Wikipedia article right now and fill it with crap. This is the debate forum, so sources should be academic and not as volatile as Wikipedia. 

 

No, not really. Wikipedia has extremely well-established and regimented policies for what kind of information is and is not admissible. Vandalism on Wikipedia is closely monitored and when it does manage to get through, it's generally very obvious. Especially with more controversial articles, there are dozens of editors watching the page for any changes.

[pancakemachine]

I hear that pushing a large object out of a vagina is quite taxing physically and mentally.

unless they had complications I see women rebound almost immediately  

[stretch]

I hear that pushing a large object out of a vagina is quite taxing physically and mentally.

 

Oh, right, in the United States where maternity leave is seen as a necessary evil to allow women to recover their bodies. Plenty of nations give very long maternity leave (and some paternity leave) because it is for the health of the family as a whole and to solidify bonds and to give the child a healthy start. It's a pity that the US views women as factories for infants with fathers as nonplayers that can simply ditch them to a baby sitter and get back to work. Isn't that a little fucked up? Like, shouldn't a dad be there to bond with his kid for such an important period of their life? My dad (Russian, btw) took six months off work to care for me. That's some dedication.

[stretch]

And the other is Papua New Guinea! Which I heard is a very beautiful place, which is absolutely unrelated.

[pancakemachine]

Fun fact: The US is one of two nations in the world that do not give paid maternity leave. 

you should redo that statement and say *requires because there are still plenty of business's that offer paid maternity leave

[Kaddict]

then whats the use for maternity leave nothing a  bottle and a babysitter couldn't do 

Breastfeeding, along with letting the mother recover. There is also an incredibly important bond between mother and baby in the first few weeks of life that fathers don't have. Which is one of the reasons doctors try to let jaundice babies go home (when not running the risk of dying/causing mental retardation) rather than going to the hospital/NICU.

[Frizzle]

I have no issues with private companies paying women and men maternity leave, I just believe if you're a government worker it should be unpaid.

If you choose to have a child, then you should provide for it, not the taxpayer. I can't take months off work paid to travel or study, people shouldn't be able to take time off and leave more work for the rest.

[Kaddict]

I have no issues with private companies paying women and men maternity leave, I just believe if you're a government worker it should be unpaid.

If you choose to have a child, then you should provide for it, not the taxpayer. I can't take months off work paid to travel or study, people shouldn't be able to take time off and leave more work for the rest.

I agree. If that were the case, then there would be a huge reason for companies to want to hire men over women. not only are they going to be missing work, they would have to be paying 2 people for 1 person's job (which I think would set back the feminist movement back quite a bit).

[Bone]

I have no issues with private companies paying women and men maternity leave, I just believe if you're a government worker it should be unpaid.

If you choose to have a child, then you should provide for it, not the taxpayer. I can't take months off work paid to travel or study, people shouldn't be able to take time off and leave more work for the rest.

 

I'm not sure where this topic even came from (@ortin what are u doing) but you could argue that paid paternal leave has a social benefit that outweighs its cost. Just a few pages back someone mentioned that women tend to leave the labor market after having children; paid maternity leave would encourage them to remain in the workforce (source). It's also associated with lower infant mortality, better psychological outcomes for children (2), and a higher fertility rate. All things that are undoubtedly good for an economy.

[Frizzle]

That all has very little to do with what I said. I have no issues with parental leave, just it should be unpaid.

[Bone]

That all has very little to do with what I said. I have no issues with parental leave, just it should be unpaid.

 

My point was that if it isn't paid, people who can't afford to miss weeks of work won't take it, to the detriment of society. Mandating paid maternity leave is the only way to ensure that these benefits are gained.

[Frizzle]

That's fine for private companies, that's shareholder profit. If women are allowed to paid time off to children that's discrimination against those who choose not to, or cannot have kids.