64 replies to this topic

[redlion]

Huh, that article wasn't behind a paywall me.

Hmmm. Perhaps they have a 5 article limit or something. I've heard tell of such things.

[NapisaurusRex]

Huh, that article wasn't behind a paywall me.

it was for me. I bet this is why the south is dumber than the north.

[KaibaSama]

Hmmm. Perhaps they have a 5 article limit or something. I've heard tell of such things.

I know the NY Times has a 10 article a month limit. And if you're on ipad/mobile and accidentally click...,you just wasted one of them.

[NapisaurusRex]

I know the NY Times has a 10 article a month limit. And if you're on ipad/mobile and accidentally click...,you just wasted one of them.

I know fo sho this is the first time I've clicked on a NYT article in a long, long time.

[Bone]

I thought this post (that @CountFurFur shared on FB) is particularly reflective of how so many people claim neutrality by ignoring any and all context for the conflict, not to mention the voices of the people suffering in Gaza. It's intellectually lazy and morally dubious to just say "both sides are awful".

[Fikri]

ok finnneeee. i'm pro-israeli. can you stop saying i'm lazy please?

 

let's be real, hamas is on the losing side. they should really stop sending rockets to israel and making demands everytime someone suggested a cease-fire. what i'm seeing is hamas trying to maintain its ego and letting civilians die for no reason. they have the power to stop this, but they don't.

[luvsmyncis]

You don't use capitalization, @Stuck. YOU'RE LAZY.

[Fikri]

You don't use capitalization, @Stuck. YOU'RE LAZY.

 

too much work.

[Waser Lave]

ok finnneeee. i'm pro-israeli. can you stop saying i'm lazy please?

 

let's be real, hamas is on the losing side. they should really stop sending rockets to israel and making demands everytime someone suggested a cease-fire. what i'm seeing is hamas trying to maintain its ego and letting civilians die for no reason. they have the power to stop this, but they don't.

 

Even if they stopped firing their low tech rockets (the vast majority of which don't even hit anything) they'll still be in exactly the same situation, Gaza is effectively a concentration camp where innocent civilians have no place to escape to since they're bounded by Israel on one side and the sea on the other (they can't cross to Egypt either)... From my perspective the death tolls speak for themselves, ~1200 Palestinians (75% of which are estimated to be civilian and close to 250 children) vs ~55 Israelis (95%+ being military personnel).

[Kaddict]

The fact that hamas is using schools to store missiles isn't really helping their case though. It is like they are trying to have israel attack their schools.

[Bone]

The fact that hamas is using schools to store missiles isn't really helping their case though. It is like they are trying to have israel attack their schools.

 

An independent, UNHRC-operated fact-finding mission found it to be Israeli government policy to target civilians.

 

And last night Israel bombed a UN-operated school that was being used to house refugees, killing dozens in their sleep. There's no excuse for that. Period.

[NapisaurusRex]

I found this pro-Israel link.

[Bone]

I found this pro-Israel link.

 

I only skimmed it (sorry, I can't bring myself to read/listen to podcasts ) but I can't help but think that the author has a point he's trying to make. And I don't think religion is an appropriate mechanism to frame the conflict with. Palestinians aren't reacting to Israeli aggression out of religious fervor, but of contempt for their occupiers and the abhorrent conditions they've imposed. 

[NapisaurusRex]

I only skimmed it (sorry, I can't bring myself to read/listen to podcasts ) but I can't help but think that the author has a point he's trying to make. And I don't think religion is an appropriate mechanism to frame the conflict with. Palestinians aren't reacting to Israeli aggression out of religious fervor, but of contempt for their occupiers and the abhorrent conditions they've imposed. 

...It's written like an article.

[Bone]

...It's written like an article.

 

Okay I'll read the whole thing and take notes

 

• I don't think he understands that the Jews are an ethnoreligious group
• Religion has little to do with the conflict, idk why he's going out of his way to whine about the Bible being "sickening"
• *aggressively ignores the fact that Israel is located on land that belonged to Palestine before 1948*
• No acknowledgement that Israel's use of force is inherently asymmetric
• "defensive war" ... really?
• [[[many citations needed]]]
• [citation not in source]
• "So the Israelis take great pains not to kill children and other noncombatants" see: UN fact-finding mission
• "The Muslims"

 

This guy just (explicitly) has something against Muslims, I'm not going to finish reading lol

[Frizzle]

Yes the whole region which is dominated by religion on both sides, a religious importance for thousands of years to THREE religions and a whole nation created based on the concept has nothing to do with religion....

[Bone]

Yes the whole region which is dominated by religion on both sides, a religious importance for thousands of years to THREE religions and a whole nation created based on the concept has nothing to do with religion....

 

The author of that article was trying to frame the conflict as Muslims vs Jews, which is a gross oversimplification of the historical/ethnic/cultural factors driving the conflict. 

[Frizzle]

Well....it's a conflict dominates by Jews and Arabs so it's not factually incorrect. Since religion dominates their culture it's fair to say it's the main crux of the conflict.

[Waser Lave]

Well....it's a conflict dominates by Jews and Arabs so it's not factually incorrect. Since religion dominates their culture it's fair to say it's the main crux of the conflict.

 

Yeah, no doubt religion is the reason for the wider conflict but probably not the main reason for the current fighting though.

[NapisaurusRex]

Yeah, no doubt religion is the reason for the wider conflict but probably not the main reason for the current fighting though.

What's the main reason? 

[Waser Lave]

What's the main reason? 

 

On the Gazan side I'd say a combination of desperation and a hatred of the people they view as their oppressors. You have to remember that they're effectively crammed into this tiny area, they've been fenced off and blockaded from the land and the sea for 7 years and any supplies that they get in are severely restricted. When you combine all of that with seemingly indiscriminate bombardment of schools and hospitals you can kind of see why their desire to fight is so strong...

[NapisaurusRex]

On the Gazan side I'd say a combination of desperation and a hatred of the people they view as their oppressors. You have to remember that they're effectively crammed into this tiny area, they've been fenced off and blockaded from the land and the sea for 7 years and any supplies that they get in are severely restricted. When you combine all of that with seemingly indiscriminate bombardment of schools and hospitals you can kind of see why their desire to fight is so strong...

Understandable. If the red calf turns into a red heifer, this is really the middle of the end.

I'm confused about why Israel is in Gaza to begin with, I think? Didn't they all leave in 2005?

[Frizzle]

....no. They've been there since 1948/1949.

[NapisaurusRex]

....no. They've been there since 1948/1949.

That's not how I remember it.

[Frizzle]

Oh I guess I must of missed the last decade of fighting then?