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Religion. Opinions.


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#1 sonic

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Posted 26 July 2006 - 04:31 PM

I am deist. I would like to make that clear. I believe in a god, but not religion. The bible, the Koran(spelling?) all of the MAN MADE holy book are just a bunch of hypocritical, contradictory bullcrap. But that is MY OPINION. I am not asking to discuss that. It's just a backround.

I was born and catholic. But I no longer consider myself catholic. I cannot associate myself with an organisation that has killed and stolen from millions in the supposed name of "god". Same thing goes with most of the worlds dominant religions. I just use Catholicism as a example because it can be more classified as a whole because of the Vatican and the view of "the church".

Anyway, that is not what I am discussing. I am discussing weather or not Religion, in general is a good thing for human kind, or is it a blinding mask that millions have killed for and/or a curtain over the scientific advancement and ultimate survival of the human race.

First. I think about the good religion brings to the "world". Many people give up violent lives, stop stealing, or quite addicting habits. Many people do the supposed "right thing" because of religion, or faith. (Don't take that to literal. In my eyes faith and religion are two different concepts) Many people keep marriages together and practice absence before marriage. These are all great things for the human race (in my eyes) and if they were the only effects of religion then this argument would most likely not exist.

BUT

You have to consider the negative impacts that a strong belief in any particular religion has on the world. The famous witch hunts? Were a cause of the Catholic churches fear of free thinking women. The not to new fighting in the middle east? Christians, Jews, Muslims. All killing others in the name of religion (or so they think they are). Taheri-azar drove a SUV onto the campus of North Carolina university and tried to run over as many Innocent people as he could. This was his response. “I live with the holy Koran as my constitution for right and wrong and definition of justice…. Allah gives permission in the Koran for the followers of Allah to attack those who have raged war against them, with the expectation of eternal paradise in case of martyrdom and/or living one’s life in obedience of all of Allah’s commandments found throughout the Koran’s 114 chapters. I’ve read all 114 chapters approximately 15 times since June of 2003 when I started reading the Koran.” And he did not try to murder UNC students “out of hatred for Americans, but out of love for Allah instead. I live only to serve Allah, by obeying all of Allah’s commandments of which I am aware by reading and learning the contents of the Koran.” Now you could say that he is one man. But most all of terrorists that call themselves Muslim say similar excuses for killing. What about the 1,200,000 Armenians that were killed by Muslims for their christian beliefs. Or the genocide waged against the Canaanites by the Muslims because "Allah" gives a commandant to kill every last Canaanite. And boy oh boy the list goes on. Hell what about September 11th? (That will cause a stir up I'm sure.)

Now what about the impact that religion has on the scientific, and medical advancements. How often do you hear about stem cell research on the news, or about cloning or other controversial studies that oposers call "unethical". Many of these protestants use religion as a point of reference, and in alot of cases, their only reasoning.
Think of many of the scientific breakthroughs in the last 150 years. for over 100 years, the whole world had a false belief about everything in the universe because of Aristotle. Other theories were suggested but shot down, and some scientists were persecuted because their theories went against the word of "god". One of the most profound scientific breakthroughs almost never made it public because Isac Newton was to afraid of persecution from the church. One of the most well recognised scientist of all time, Albert Einstein could have solved the Ultimate theory of everything, but because of his religious beliefs, he refused to accept Quantum Mechanics!

Well guys. I'm done. I ranted I guess. Now were are your highly honored opinions. (I'm especially awaiting Hydro's)

Edited by Sonic, 26 July 2006 - 05:32 PM.


#2 Justin

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Posted 26 July 2006 - 04:45 PM

Wouldnt this go in the debate section? D:

#3 sonic

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Posted 26 July 2006 - 04:48 PM

Eh.
I guess it could be.
Let a Mod decide.

#4 Ives

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Posted 26 July 2006 - 04:56 PM

I'm just your local nontheist. I do believe I wish to leave this world knowing I have made it a better place, but other than that, I just don't believe in anything. Huge fan of religious studies. I really dig Islam, though I personally wouldn't convert. Same applies with almost all religions, such as Buddhism, Judaism, Christianity, Daoism, etc. There are plenty of things that could be right, and could be wrong. I pretty much figure as long as I follow a good moral code, and do my best to not follow a bad one, I'm not to worried about what lies in death.

Despite my nontheistic standpoint, I must point out you are making a little too large of a stereotype about Islam. You cannot judge the actual religion based on what a few loonies such as terrorists say. Basically, the whole Jihad thing just means struggle. If you die in a struggle to promote Islam, then you will be rewarded paradise. However, suicide is a very bad sin to commit in the Qur'an, so terrorists flat out contradict themselves. I don't care if you want to disagree with Islam, but please do not condemn 1.2 billion people simply because of the extremism going on in some countries that follow by Sharia.

Edited by Athean, 26 July 2006 - 05:01 PM.


#5 Krnsaber

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Posted 26 July 2006 - 05:13 PM

Yeah, this belongs in debate.

#6 sonic

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Posted 26 July 2006 - 05:34 PM

QUOTE(AliasXNeo @ Jul 26 2006, 05:32 PM) View Post

So, how could I say that religion hurts the world, when I believe my belief.


I'm not asking you to admit your religion hurts the world. That was my opinion. Hell if we all had the same opinion then the world would be boring.

It's my opinion. That is all. I do not expect many to share my opinion.


#7 Ives

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Posted 26 July 2006 - 06:02 PM

Sonic, what you're doing is going out of the holy texts, and pointing to events that Christians / Muslims did, none that are nessecarily promoted by the actual texts.

#8 Shin

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Posted 26 July 2006 - 06:31 PM

I do not have a religion, nor do I believe in a god. (What is the correct term for that? Atheist?) I do not mind at all that other people follow a religion. I do not like it when people persistently try to convert me to their religion, however. Actually, I get pretty pissed off. They've all called me arrogant and not giving new things a chance, but I prefer to stay my way.

I view religion as a set of values and morals. Originally, I think they were created to let people know what they should and should not do. For example, Christianity has rules against killing, stealing, etc. I appreciate the morals that it is teaching. However, I think people have taken it way too far and are killing people to make their religion dominate. When I hear about the never-ending conflicts in the Middle East because of religious disputes, I feel disappointed and angry. These people are killing each other because they follow different values. Religious intolerance should not be acceptable grounds for killing someone.

#9 sonic

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Posted 26 July 2006 - 07:37 PM

QUOTE(Athean @ Jul 26 2006, 07:02 PM) View Post

Sonic, what you're doing is going out of the holy texts, and pointing to events that Christians / Muslims did, none that are nessecarily promoted by the actual texts.


Point to one event that is not a proven historical and logged event.... That I have stated.
I have already told you that I do not belive in any "holy texts"

Edited by Sonic, 26 July 2006 - 07:38 PM.


#10 sonic

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Posted 26 July 2006 - 08:10 PM

QUOTE(AliasXNeo @ Jul 26 2006, 08:00 PM) View Post

What he is saying is like me going out and telling everyone that I am Christian. A few days later I bomb some huge ass building and kill hundreds. When asked why, I say "I did it for my God, so that I may be loyal to the Bible and be a martyr". Then, you come along some time later and say, "Is religion good? A few weeks ago some guy bombed a tower for his religion". When in reality, I had no idea what christianity was about, and I was just a psyco proclaiming to be a Christian.

Get it?


Yes, but when a religious leader orders mass amount of people to kill other mass amounts of people, its different.

#11 Malicious

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Posted 26 July 2006 - 11:11 PM

But from the bomber's perspective, are they not doing what is right, as is proclaimed by whatever deity they worship?

#12 sonic

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Posted 26 July 2006 - 11:13 PM

QUOTE(Malicious @ Jul 27 2006, 12:11 AM) View Post

But from the bomber's perspective, are they not doing what is right, as is proclaimed by whatever deity they worship?


Thats a difficult concept.

I believe its because the majority of terrorests my be undereducated and because of this they are more impresionable. This means that all a terrorist leader needs to do is say kill and do it in the name of allah and they do it.

#13 Malicious

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Posted 26 July 2006 - 11:24 PM

From their view, they are doing what is right in their eyes. It may be hideously wrong and unethical in ours, but what they are doing is what they feel is right.

Undereducation means nothing. It's simply the morals the person carries and their view of ethnics. Maybe education changes that, I dont know. It seems highly unlikely though.

#14 dolphinbomb

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Posted 26 July 2006 - 11:46 PM

Religion... heh..

I just mentioned that it's tough for me to wrap my mind around such subjects, but I'll give my opinion.

While I have no problem with religion, I don't believe it's necassary anymore.
Like shin, I view religion as a set of morals and guidelines for everyday life. I don't find it necassary because all of these morals and such are already emphasised in our present society.

Now, thousands of years ago, when times were different, I can see where religion would come into play. If a higher being said "Follow my rules, and I'll reward you," then it's a pretty safe bet that most people are going to follow it. This was a time before most laws, crimes, etc. Before murder, rape, etc was illegal.

However, our present day society is built upon these beliefs, and as such we grow up and view such things as "Thou shalt not kill" or "Thou shalt not steal" as common sense.

I view religion as a crutch for people who are unable to think for themselves. Something that people have spoon-fed to them instead of learning for themselves.

*expects Alias to find 20 reasons to flame him*

Edited by dolphinbomb, 26 July 2006 - 11:48 PM.


#15 Raui

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Posted 27 July 2006 - 01:10 AM

Religion is a massive topic.

I don't belive that there is a god out there. Although i do belive to an extent that there is. The deffinition of a god is a super being with mythical powers. Well to that part i don't belive but every religion has a god that handles life on our planet. I belive thats true but its just not how they describe it. It would be something scientific. eg The big bang.

There are people that base their life around their gods. I think its just a waste. I don't mean to offend any religious people at codex or anywhere else for that matter but my opinions are just as important as yours. People can belive what ever they want. Belifs have to have some sort of fact in them. I could belive that my grandfather will rise from the grave to speak with me for just 5 minutes. But it won't happen. In my oppinion its the same with god.

The problems religion causes is just whacked. Look at every war we have had in the last 500 years. Religion is the main cause of this. Take semptember 11 for example. In the hijackers religion they were doing the right thing. While the rest of the religions in the world disagreed and look where it has that religion's people, bombed and bombing. In my oppinion there should be only one "religion" and thats common decentcy. If that was the only "religion" was common decentcy we would be alot happier world. For those wondering i put religion in "s its because comon decentcy isn't a real religion but imo is the only thing we should belive when it comes to religion.

Thanks for reading. Sorry if i have offended anyone.

#16 otherworld

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Posted 27 July 2006 - 02:12 AM

Well basically I do not believe in a god of any sort. There are so many scientific theories which can be proven (big bang, red shift) about the creation of the universe. What proof is there that any god exists, none.

thats it for now, might add stuff later when I have thought of a non-offensive way of saying it.

#17 Ives

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Posted 27 July 2006 - 07:00 AM

Thats what I find funny about terrorism, Alias. The Christians and Jews of Medina HELPED Mohammed, and accepted him for his beliefs. Islam teaches religious tolerance even more so than Judaism and Christianity. However, I think that most of the terrorists don't hate Christians, but hypocrites. Because most people assume the United States is all Christian, and is the official religion, people that have read the bible may look at them as hypocrites, noting cultures in the United States such as Hollywood.

Also, we weren't based on Christianity. Read the quotes below.

"What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; on many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not."
[James Madison, "A Memorial and Remonstrance", 1785.]


"I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved -- the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!"
[John Adams, in a letter to Thomas Jefferson.]


"History I believe furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance, of which their political as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purpose."
[Thomas Jefferson to Baron von Humboldt, 1813.]


"I cannot conceive otherwise than that He, the Infinite Father, expects or requires no worship or praise from us, but that He is even infinitely above it."
[Benjamin Franklin, from "Articles of Belief and Acts of Religion", Nov. 20, 1728.]

Edited by Athean, 27 July 2006 - 07:04 AM.


#18 Cript

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Posted 27 July 2006 - 07:04 AM

QUOTE(Athean @ Jul 27 2006, 10:00 AM) View Post

Thats what I find funny about terrorism, Alias. The Christians and Jews of Medina HELPED Mohammed, and accepted him for his beliefs. Islam teaches religious tolerance even more so than Judaism and Christianity. However, I think that most of the terrorists don't hate Christians, but hypocrites. Because most people assume the United States is all Christian, and is the official religion, people that have read the bible may look at them as hypocrites, noting cultures in the United States such as Hollywood.


It's an absolute shame seeing how poorly people can misinterpret their beliefs, be it the Quran or the Bible. Anyone who kills innocents for their religion sets an absolutely horrible example for others.

#19 Ives

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Posted 27 July 2006 - 07:15 AM

QUOTE(AliasXNeo @ Jul 27 2006, 09:10 AM) View Post

Well, we have God on our money, and His name in our pledge, if I saw a country like that I would think it was based on Christianity.


Actually, it was based on deism. Back in 'ole 1785, there was no such thing as atheism, so everyone believe in a God, basically. Yes, they used "God" on the money, and on the pledge. God can mean MANY things, however. It could be The God of Abraham, it could mean Brahman, it could mean all the Gods in Shinto. They believed in God, but they didn't specify Christianity. Even though more than half of the people who founded the Nation were Christians, they believed deism was best fit, because it is very broad (Deism just believes in a God and possibly more), and represented religious tolerance more fit than Christianity, which suggests to not accept Jesus Christ is the one unforgivable sin.

Edited by Athean, 27 July 2006 - 07:18 AM.


#20 Cript

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Posted 27 July 2006 - 07:15 AM

QUOTE(AliasXNeo @ Jul 27 2006, 10:10 AM) View Post

Well, we have God on our money, and His name in our pledge, if I saw a country like that I would think it was based on Christianity.


Christians aren't the only religion to have "God."

#21 Ives

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Posted 27 July 2006 - 07:25 AM

Yeah. If they wanted to specify the God of Abraham, it would be something along the lines of "In YHWH, The one true God of Abraham, we trust."

#22 sonic

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Posted 27 July 2006 - 09:51 AM

QUOTE(Athean @ Jul 27 2006, 08:00 AM) View Post

think that most of the terrorists don't hate Christians, but hypocrites. Because most people assume the United States is all Christian, and is the official religion, people that have read the bible may look at them as hypocrites, noting cultures in the United States such as Hollywood.


Christians are hypocrites, yet muslims are not?

In the last 30 years what religion has killed the most people in the supossed name of god? Even though it goes against everything they believe in? That sir is hypocrisy.

Edited by Sonic, 27 July 2006 - 09:52 AM.


#23 Cript

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Posted 27 July 2006 - 10:06 AM

QUOTE(Sonic @ Jul 27 2006, 12:51 PM) View Post

Christians are hypocrites, yet muslims are not?

In the last 30 years what religion has killed the most people in the supossed name of god? Even though it goes against everything they believe in? That sir is hypocrisy.


He in no way said that Christians were hypocrites. He said that most people assume our country is hypocritical and that Hollywood perpetuates a poor image of our country.

#24 Ives

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Posted 27 July 2006 - 10:12 AM

Yup. It wouldn't be right to say either are hypocrites, as the majority aren't. They may have different lifestyles, but the extremists are low in numbers, even though the goverments could be considered corrupt from a western viewpoint.

#25 Vegas

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Posted 27 July 2006 - 12:21 PM

Only read the first post.


Religion has good parts and bad.

Good-It brings people together, makes people closer, lets you have hope and support(money, emotional etc.) when you need it most, lets you relieve your feelings and guilt, makes you appreciate life more, lets you find inner peace, lets you lead a better, more generous, more nice life through learnin the teachings which help develop morality

Bad-Separates people and makes people have really biased opinions on others from different religion, causes violent acts which sometimes lead to killin all in the in the name of God with reason that they are doing the right thing,can lead to war through the separation of beliefs, has beliefs that condemn alot and tries to make less important the values of some of modern practises, acts, innovations, etc.(gay, sex, stemcell, science), can have conflicts with people of the same religion wit stronger and different beliefs(say your rreally rich and your wife wants to donate alot of it away but you dont since you worked your mofu.ckin ass off for it), conflicts that can destroy relationships with others.

Well thats all that comes to mind. Religion causes pain, suffering, turmoil but can also give hope, faith, peace, happiness. Forgive me for saying as a Catholic but in allreligion is a double-edged sword.

I say the best thing is to have all people believe in a common religion which will be hard since all people have different opinions and finding beliefs that will suit all is hard. Also it is a super, mega change.


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