62 replies to this topic

[Grizzly]

If you align every single DNA in the human body, one chain the another. The line could circle around the earth several hundreds of million times. You can find just about the same amount of DNA in a shovel of dirt.

And science has an incredible chain of causes for our existence starting with the big bang, the formation of organic compounds, the collaboration of organic compounds to create organelles which worked in collaboration to create prokaryotes which worked in collobaration to create eukaryotes which evolved through generations adapted to the changing environment and suddenly you have humans with millions of billions of dna all working together. And we started with two microscopic cells that developed into something hundreds of thousands of millions of billions time larger and more complex.

All in all.. our existence, life and being in general is a miracle. If you think its all just a damn coincidence, fine.

But what I've come to accept is that there is no OR. It's religion and science. The truths of science is undeniable yet I think its god that put it all together.

Nassim Haramein helped me come to this understanding. He explains it all much more sophisticated of course, but he doesn't really cross into the realm of religion. He's an incredible scientist who views geometry, physics, and biology as a hollistic unit rather than individually to understand nature. I can't explain his work but feel free to youtube his lecture "Crossing the Event Horizon" if you've got a few hours to spare.

Discuss/Debate Nassim Haramein, Religion and/or Science, life, existence, blah blah blah blah blah.

[Sweeney]

It's not entirely coincidence.
Biological molecules have natural affinities for each other, for starters.
You base your preconception of a prokaryote on modern prokaryotes. Primordial prokaryotes were far far simpler, with little function other than self replication.
And so on.

A supernatural entity is not required to explain anything that exists on this planet, and invoking one merely indicates ones subconscious need for a security blanket.

[pyke]

It's not entirely coincidence.
Biological molecules have natural affinities for each other, for starters.
You base your preconception of a prokaryote on modern prokaryotes. Primordial prokaryotes were far far simpler, with little function other than self replication.
And so on.

A supernatural entity is not required to explain anything that exists on this planet, and invoking one merely indicates ones subconscious need for a security blanket.

Why do these affinities exist though?

Why do the explanations of the above question exist? So on and so forth, you'll hit a point where you have to say "I don't know"

[Melchoire]

The way you're addressing this it would seem idiotic to choose religion because science after all is proven facts. But I don't believe that islam refutes science and on the contrary there are a lot of scientific references in it and encourages people to learn more. So if anyone tells you that Islam is a religion of ignorance they're wrong, especially if they're Pat Robertson. Just this is isn't presented as hear-say here's a passage from the Quran:
"And He has created you in different stages and different forms (71:15)" do you think it refutes or supports evolution?

It's not entirely coincidence.
Biological molecules have natural affinities for each other, for starters.
You base your preconception of a prokaryote on modern prokaryotes. Primordial prokaryotes were far far simpler, with little function other than self replication.
And so on.

A supernatural entity is not required to explain anything that exists on this planet, and invoking one merely indicates ones subconscious need for a security blanket.

Out of curiosity what do you believe will happen to you when you die?

[Grizzly]

It's not entirely coincidence.
Biological molecules have natural affinities for each other, for starters.
You base your preconception of a prokaryote on modern prokaryotes. Primordial prokaryotes were far far simpler, with little function other than self replication.
And so on.

A supernatural entity is not required to explain anything that exists on this planet, and invoking one merely indicates ones subconscious need for a security blanket.

The evolution of prokaryotes really has absolutely no basis for my concept. You can really pick at all the little things I say, but you're not seeing the big picture which is important. Essentially, that is the problem with your way of thinking imo. You can use science to explain all the little details, but you fail to see the big picture.

Yes, biological molecules have affinities, but these affinities are not enough to support the existence and evolution of life.

The way you're addressing this it would seem idiotic to choose religion because science after all is proven facts. But I don't believe that islam refutes science and on the contrary there are a lot of scientific references in it and encourages people to learn more. So if anyone tells you that Islam is a religion of ignorance they're wrong, especially if they're Pat Robertson. Just this is isn't presented as hear-say here's a passage from the Quran:
"And He has created you in different stages and different forms (71:15)" do you think it refutes or supports evolution?
Out of curiosity what do you believe will happen to you when you die?

On the contrary, religion does in fact attempt to refute science. The phrase "He has created" downright opposes evolution in my opinion.

Science can explain how but religion explains why.
Yet when religion often tries to explain how.. that's when it fails. It's hard for me to believe a lot of the thinking of the first testament as to how the world and life began. Consequently, there are a lot of intangible aspects of reality that science can not explain.

And these are the fundamental questions that have to be answered together, yet neither science nor religion can answer both.

[Melchoire]

On the contrary, religion does in fact attempt to refute science. The phrase "He has created" downright opposes evolution in my opinion.

Science can explain how but religion explains why.
Yet when religion often tries to explain how.. that's when it fails. It's hard for me to believe a lot of the thinking of the first testament as to how the world and life began. Consequently, there are a lot of intangible aspects of reality that science can not explain.

And these are the fundamental questions that have to be answered together, yet neither science nor religion can answer both.

Evolution is a theory of how species evolve to better suit their habitats. Evolution doesn't explain how it initially began. Ergo it doesn't refute it.

[Grizzly]

The origin of life is a necessary precursor for evolution. "And He has created you". This is taken out of context. but I'm assuming you refers to people.
And if HE created YOU. YOU did not evolve from other species.

[pyke]

The origin of life is a necessary precursor for evolution. "And He has created you". This is taken out of context. but I'm assuming you refers to people.
And if HE created YOU. YOU did not evolve from other species.

He also created earth and all of its animals. Man was made in his image, but maybe he looks like a monkey?

[Grizzly]

He also created earth and all of its animals. Man was made in his image, but maybe he looks like a monkey?

lol what?

[travis]

I have a question.

Why does it have to be definite sides?
The creationism and evolution theories lock horns, but they can also go hand in hand..
i find it hard to believe that one cell created what we have now.
and i also find it hard to believe that some mystical being just made it all.
but...maybe some higher power simply added fuel to the flame for evolution..the initial spark, the evolution blueprints, etc..all overseen by a higher power.

Nevermind, posted before i read the first post.

[Grizzly]

I have a question.

Why does it have to be definite sides?
The creationism and evolution theories lock horns, but they can also go hand in hand..
i find it hard to believe that one cell created what we have now.
and i also find it hard to believe that some mystical being just made it all.
but...maybe some higher power simply added fuel to the flame for evolution..the initial spark, the evolution blueprints, etc..all overseen by a higher power.

Nevermind, posted before i read the first post.

lmao

[fruglemonkey]

I believe in science.

I was not brought up with religion, and when i was actually old enough to understand it, i was like, wtf? A big flood killed everybody? NO WAI!

>> Here's a thought; what if you replaced every term that references a higher being in the bible with, say, magical toaster? I.e Jesus is piece toast, god is a toaster, moses is butter, and so on. After reading it, you would think that it was a crazy story, that a piece of toast was put onto a cross and killed, only to come back 3 days later. But if you were taught this from birth, would you be so quick to refute it?

N.B, this is what such a passage would look like:
In the beginning The toaster created the heavens and the earth.

Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of The toaster was hovering over the waters.

And The toaster said, "Let there be light," and there was light. The toaster saw that the light was good, and He separated the light from the darkness. The toaster called the light "day," and the darkness it called "night." And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.

[Brad]

I used to be a seminarian. Now I'm going to be going to med school. So I've been exposed to both sides of this. I like to think that religion is still necessary, to morally guide and provide answers to the unexplained. However, I also believe that it's up to science to eventually explain the things that are currently in the realm of religion. Some things, I think, are never going to be fully explained by science. These are where religion steps in. We call them miracles.

[DudeOnline]

Has anyone ever thought that maybe if there is a god, that he/she is just a kid playing around with some cosmic sea-monkey aquarium?

[Sweeney]

The evolution of prokaryotes really has absolutely no basis for my concept. You can really pick at all the little things I say, but you're not seeing the big picture which is important. Essentially, that is the problem with your way of thinking imo. You can use science to explain all the little details, but you fail to see the big picture.

Yes, biological molecules have affinities, but these affinities are not enough to support the existence and evolution of life.

The big picture? That everything that exists, exists?
These things can all be explained by the smaller things.
God is superfluous.

Why do these affinities exist though?

Why do the explanations of the above question exist? So on and so forth, you'll hit a point where you have to say "I don't know"

The affinities exist because that's the laws of physics.
The laws of physics don't exist for a reason, that's just how they are.

And don't bring up the "fine tuning" argument, please. It's pure tautology.

[Grizzly]

Fourth grade geometry.

A dot.
A point. Nonexistent in reality. Zero dimensions.

A line.
Consists of an infinite set of points. Nonexistent. 1D.

A plane.
Infinite lines. Nonexistent. 2D.

Suddenly we put several nonexistent planes together and we have a 3dimensional figure. A finite object with volume and which exists.

You look at math and science at its smaller details, but when you put them together as a hollistic unit they often don't make sense. Here's a better example. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. And the universe is constantly expanding which scientists explain through a balloon model. Yet these theories fail to recognize the contracting opposite reaction.. And where do humans fit into this model..

More importantly.. to return to my previous example. This simple fundamental concept of geometry explains to us that finites can not exist without infinites. Explain that to me in scientific terms..

Evolution. Physics. They all make sense when you break them apart chapter after chapter looking at its smaller units. You zoom out a bit and they don't make sense together. Because I believe religion is the missing element in these beliefs.

Hasamein explains the science part of what I just said.. just so much better. If your willing to keep an open mind, I really do suggest you check his theory out.

I was not brought up with religion, and when i was actually old enough to understand it, i was like, wtf? A big flood killed everybody? NO WAI!

ZOMG AND WTF. A GIANT METEOR KILLED MASSIVE CREATURES THAT LIVES MILLIONS OF YEARS AGO CALLED DINOSAURS!??! AND HUMANS MAGICALLY EVOLVED FROM PRIMEAPELIKE ANCESTORS! srslywtfbbq

Let's look up "biology" in wikipedia and replace that term every time with "barbeque chicken". We shall also replace 'evolution' with douchebag. And any other scientific terms with different fruits and vegetables.

Barbeque chicken, also referred to as the barbeque chicken sciences, is the scientific study of banana. Bbq chicken examines the structure, function, cucumber, origin, douchebag, and distribution of living things. It classifies and describes kiwis, their functions, how oranges come into existence, and the interactions they have with each other and with the banana environment. Four unifying principles form the foundation of modern bbq chicken: mango theory, douchebag, tomato and blueberry.

..See how juvenile you sound? Come back when your balls have dropped.

[pyke]

The laws of physics don't exist for a reason, that's just how they are.

And don't bring up the "fine tuning" argument, please. It's pure tautology.

There are people that aren't happy that things are just there, plus it isn't a very scientific approach to matters.

[Melchoire]

The origin of life is a necessary precursor for evolution. "And He has created you". This is taken out of context. but I'm assuming you refers to people.
And if HE created YOU. YOU did not evolve from other species.

And He has created you in different stages and different forms.
Yes it is taken out of context. In my opinion YOU refers to the whole evolution tree; all species that live or have ever lived. Therefore he created mankind in different forms eg. homohabilus, homosapien, chimps etc. I am aware that this may be open to interpretation but it's not that vague.

He also created earth and all of its animals. Man was made in his image, but maybe he looks like a monkey?

That's the bible not the Quran.

[Grizzly]

And He has created you in different stages and different forms.
Yes it is taken out of context. In my opinion YOU refers to the whole evolution tree; all species that live or have ever lived. Therefore he created mankind in different forms eg. homohabilus, homosapien, chimps etc. I am aware that this may be open to interpretation but it's not that vague.

If that is the case, I would totally agree with you.
But I find it hard to believe he was speaking to chimps

[Akira]

There are people that aren't happy that things are just there, plus it isn't a very scientific approach to matters.

Lawl....I lawl at that. Every religious person is satisfied with God just being there, without any explanation (an explanation for God's existence is typically considered blasphemey).

The laws of physics are usually considered fairly self-explanatory...in the sense that one often explains the other. If you zoomed in and glared spitefully at one, for example, you wouldn't notice that another explains why it works, and so on.

I suppose that Christians would just have to part with their stereotypically white Adam and Eve and replace them with Bobo and Betty the primates? Yeah, I'm sure that would please the religious masses; realizing that their God is punishing us because of the female primate eating a fruit. Not that the fact that a human woman eating a fruit causing all sin and evil to be born into humanity should be acceptable, but a -lot- of extremists hate the thought of us being related to primates at all.

[Grizzly]

Lawl....I lawl at that. Every religious person is satisfied with God just being there, without any explanation (an explanation for God's existence is typically considered blasphemey).

The laws of physics are usually considered fairly self-explanatory...in the sense that one often explains the other. If you zoomed in and glared spitefully at one, for example, you wouldn't notice that another explains why it works, and so on.

Its just as easy to accept scientific theories fed to you by your stupid ass high school teachers as the explanation to everything, as it is to accept religion.
I'm tired of hearing that God has no explanation. God is superfluous. God is a security blanket. God is convenience. Yes, religion depends a whole lot on faith. But there is also philosophical reasoning behind religion and also a way to incorporate religious thinking into the realms of science as I have attempted.

[Sweeney]

Fourth grade geometry.

A dot.
A point. Nonexistent in reality. Zero dimensions.

A line.
Consists of an infinite set of points. Nonexistent. 1D.

A plane.
Infinite lines. Nonexistent. 2D.

Suddenly we put several nonexistent planes together and we have a 3dimensional figure. A finite object with volume and which exists.

You look at math and science at its smaller details, but when you put them together as a hollistic unit they often don't make sense. Here's a better example. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. And the universe is constantly expanding which scientists explain through a balloon model. Yet these theories fail to recognize the contracting opposite reaction.. And where do humans fit into this model..

More importantly.. to return to my previous example. This simple fundamental concept of geometry explains to us that finites can not exist without infinites. Explain that to me in scientific terms..

Evolution. Physics. They all make sense when you break them apart chapter after chapter looking at its smaller units. You zoom out a bit and they don't make sense together. Because I believe religion is the missing element in these beliefs.

Hasamein explains the science part of what I just said.. just so much better. If your willing to keep an open mind, I really do suggest you check his theory out.

Why do you stipulate that lines and planes have to be infinite? That's not true...

Maths and science work on the microcosm, and apply it to the macrocosm altogether. Just because you don't understand, or can't see how, it ties together in the macrocosm, doesn't mean that it doesn't.
I don't think you understand Newton's third law, either. For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. The expansion of the universe is caused by the matter within the universe pressing on its theoretical "edge". The equal and opposite reaction to that is the edge pushing back on the matter within the universe. How is that unaccounted for?

Geometry is science. You obviously understand it in terms of geometry, why do you need another, less precise, definition?

Evolution does make sense all together, as does physics. In the case of physics, perhaps we can't specifically define it in one unifying theory, yet, but what we know clearly works, it's just a matter of doing the maths.

Religion cannot be a "missing element" in a scientific discussion, because it defines nothing. Saying goddidit is precisely the same as saying we don't know. The "theory" of a creator makes no scientific predictions, and is therefore utterly worthless in a scientific context.

[Melchoire]

If that is the case, I would totally agree with you.
But I find it hard to believe he was speaking to chimps

We are the only ones who would understand it or need to understand it. I don't think it would concern a chimp. Maybe in a few million years it will but not right now. Suppose I discuss Joe's opinion of you with you; I wouldn't need to address Joe because it wouldn't concern him just you.

PS: I am in no way making a derogatory comparison between Joe and chimps

Edited by FlashGM, 19 November 2007 - 10:08 PM.

[DudeOnline]

Religion happens when the human brain cannot comprehend why he/she or anything around it was created, so saying "god made it" is a simple enough answer to take in.

[fruglemonkey]

ZOMG AND WTF. A GIANT METEOR KILLED MASSIVE CREATURES THAT LIVES MILLIONS OF YEARS AGO CALLED DINOSAURS!??! AND HUMANS MAGICALLY EVOLVED FROM PRIMEAPELIKE ANCESTORS! srslywtfbbq

But, there is actual evidence of those events happening. There are fossil records, observed speciation events, and such events are actually plausible, and can/did happen.

However, try and give me proof that the Earth was created in a few days, or that eve was created from a rib of adam, or that the entire earth was flooded with rain.

You can't.

Edited by fruglemonkey, 19 November 2007 - 11:01 PM.