18 replies to this topic

[redlion]

Well, I'm interested to see what other people think. Unlike most other settings available to me, this forum has international members, some of which have nationalized healthcare.

Post your opinions, experiences, and ideas about the idea of government funded, socialized healthcare for America.

[Waser Lave]

The healthcare system in America is one of the things which I really don't like about it. They've ended up with a situation where tens of millions of people are either under-insured or not insured at all leaving them extremely vulnerable. Millions of people's lives put at risk just for the premise of individual freedoms and low taxes...

Also one of the main reasons why I'm proud to be English. Healthcare provision for all, not just those who can afford to pay.

Edited by Laser Wave, 07 February 2008 - 09:10 PM.

[Hydrogen]

My opnion is that a government should spend it's billions or trillions of dollars (or other currency) on it's constituents rather than going off on imperial adventures and finishing daddy's war. Interpret that however you wish .

[redlion]

I mean, I can't fathom this. I know he is a wacko, and I know he's a liberal, leftist commie bastard (whatever), but Michael Moore's Sicko just tore my heart out. When everyday citizens in fucking Cuba get full health coverage, yet we can't take care of national heroes, something is completely fucked.

[Waser Lave]

I mean, I can't fathom this. I know he is a wacko, and I know he's a liberal, leftist commie bastard (whatever), but Michael Moore's Sicko just tore my heart out. When everyday citizens in fucking Cuba get full health coverage, yet we can't take care of national heroes, something is completely fucked.

If you stayed in the empire you'd get free healthcare. You made your bed...

[redlion]

If you stayed in the empire you'd get free healthcare. You made your bed...

Don't hate. If it doesn't happen in the states by the time I'm twenty five, I'm jumping ship.

[Waser Lave]

Don't hate. If it doesn't happen in the states by the time I'm twenty five, I'm jumping ship.

Just hop over the border. Those lot are part of the commonwealth, it's close enough. You'll have to put up with a load of frenchies though...(I'm not sure if it's worth it)

[Hydrogen]

Don't hate. If it doesn't happen in the states by the time I'm twenty five, I'm jumping ship.

If Obama wins, it may happen. If he stays true to what he has promised.

I never thought I'd live to see a day where people promise one thing, openly do another and everyone else does nothing about it.

Just hop over the border. Those lot are part of the commonwealth, it's close enough. You'll have to put up with a load of frenchies though...(I'm not sure if it's worth it)

Mexico is closer for him .

I wouldn't mind Canada actually. I just don't know if I can take the moose.

[Mr. Hobo]

How old are you now Patrick? Planning on moving to bc in about 6 years. You can leach off of me (You too Hydro, you just have to drive a bit north )

It's overdue for America to get a national healthcare system, only industrial country to not have one. It's just a matter of the people snapping out of the trance the government has put them in and realizing what's going on beyond their telivisions. The problem with America is that people think themselves too much as individuals, for example, if some employees have a problem with like a best buy and they go on strike it's only like half a dozen, replacable people so nothing is going to change, but if people from other best buys and it's mother company (or whatever term you use) go on strike then the best buy would give into the demands. The middle class is too busy with bullshit like popular culture, the upper class is busy with manipulating the other classes to stay on top and the lower class is either too busy working to meet ends meet or too ignorant and lazy to try and make a change. Tobacco companies wouldn't exist if it just consisted of like a ceo and other management but people are forced to work for said companies as they have no alternative since they need the money. If only there was a system where all people were actually equal, and recieved equal wages so there wouldn't be an incentive to get the upper hand by not disposing of waste properly, sticking with gas guzzling car models or addicting people to drugs . (Yes it would result in people saying 'if I make as much money as a doctor if I'm a janitor then why would I go through med school' but that'd only be for a bit until people stop being so damn materialistic, plus more people would have an opputunity to go get higher education and help out the community, despite the overwhelming evidence I think that people can do good). My ignorant, ill-informed take on it.

[pyke]

If Obama wins, it may happen. If he stays true to what he has promised.

I never thought I'd live to see a day where people promise one thing, openly do another and everyone else does nothing about it.

Mexico is closer for him .

I wouldn't mind Canada actually. I just don't know if I can take the moose.

Central Canada isn't too moose populated. Newfoundland is pretty bad for it, just stay away from pomroy

As for healthcare, I feel that both USA and Canada need revision.

[Sugarnspice]

The USA does need revision of its healthcare system, but I'm not so sure socialism would really cut it. For many Americans, socialism really isn't the way. When we have the sniffles, we want to go see a doctor and we want to go see a doctor NOW!. If everyone had free healthcare, it would be nooot really worth your time. And what if you end up having pneumonia and needing a hospital visit? Well too bad. There's 100 people in the waiting room, you just wait your turn while your lungs collapse. ( a friend of mine had his lungs collapse last night so I was thinking about that.) Additionally, doesn't socialism basically set a fixed salary for doctors? (I'm not sure.) If so, why be a brain surgeon when you'll get just as much money as the general practitioner who's over there treating the sniffly people.
Then again, it would definitely help poor people who really need the help, but cannot pay for it. It would potentially save the lives of those who really cannot afford it but who could have made a difference in the world had they not died of that pneumonia they couldn't afford to see a doctor to get the medicine from.
Then again, toss illegals into the mix now. Free healthcare?! Whooo!!
Which would drain society and society's tax money a lot more as well.

Notice I'm playing both sides of the coin. Sparking more debate, playing devil's advocate. .

[Sweeney]

The USA does need revision of its healthcare system, but I'm not so sure socialism would really cut it. For many Americans, socialism really isn't the way. When we have the sniffles, we want to go see a doctor and we want to go see a doctor NOW!. If everyone had free healthcare, it would be nooot really worth your time. And what if you end up having pneumonia and needing a hospital visit? Well too bad. There's 100 people in the waiting room, you just wait your turn while your lungs collapse. ( a friend of mine had his lungs collapse last night so I was thinking about that.) Additionally, doesn't socialism basically set a fixed salary for doctors? (I'm not sure.) If so, why be a brain surgeon when you'll get just as much money as the general practitioner who's over there treating the sniffly people.
Then again, it would definitely help poor people who really need the help, but cannot pay for it. It would potentially save the lives of those who really cannot afford it but who could have made a difference in the world had they not died of that pneumonia they couldn't afford to see a doctor to get the medicine from.
Then again, toss illegals into the mix now. Free healthcare?! Whooo!!
Which would drain society and society's tax money a lot more as well.

Notice I'm playing both sides of the coin. Sparking more debate, playing devil's advocate. .

Your view disturbs me deeply.
Thank goodness I already live in a welfare state.

[Sugarnspice]

Why do you say that?

I'm rather fence-esque on the topic. I was playing devil's advocate.


And yes. Fence-esque IS a word.
I created it.

Your view disturbs me deeply.
Thank goodness I already live in a welfare state.

Edited by Sugarnspice, 08 February 2008 - 04:46 PM.

[Sweeney]

Why do you say that?

I'm rather fence-esque on the topic. I was playing devil's advocate.
And yes. Fence-esque IS a word.
I created it.

Why on earth would a brain surgeon be on the same salary as a GP?

[Waser Lave]

The USA does need revision of its healthcare system, but I'm not so sure socialism would really cut it. For many Americans, socialism really isn't the way. When we have the sniffles, we want to go see a doctor and we want to go see a doctor NOW!. If everyone had free healthcare, it would be nooot really worth your time. And what if you end up having pneumonia and needing a hospital visit? Well too bad. There's 100 people in the waiting room, you just wait your turn while your lungs collapse. ( a friend of mine had his lungs collapse last night so I was thinking about that.) Additionally, doesn't socialism basically set a fixed salary for doctors? (I'm not sure.) If so, why be a brain surgeon when you'll get just as much money as the general practitioner who's over there treating the sniffly people.
Then again, it would definitely help poor people who really need the help, but cannot pay for it. It would potentially save the lives of those who really cannot afford it but who could have made a difference in the world had they not died of that pneumonia they couldn't afford to see a doctor to get the medicine from.
Then again, toss illegals into the mix now. Free healthcare?! Whooo!!
Which would drain society and society's tax money a lot more as well.

Notice I'm playing both sides of the coin. Sparking more debate, playing devil's advocate. .

Methinks you've never experienced a modern welfare system.

(And why would you go to the doctor for 'sniffles'? Just go to a pharmacy...)

[Mr. Hobo]

The USA does need revision of its healthcare system, but I'm not so sure socialism would really cut it. For many Americans, socialism really isn't the way. When we have the sniffles, we want to go see a doctor and we want to go see a doctor NOW!. If everyone had free healthcare, it would be nooot really worth your time. And what if you end up having pneumonia and needing a hospital visit? Well too bad. There's 100 people in the waiting room, you just wait your turn while your lungs collapse. ( a friend of mine had his lungs collapse last night so I was thinking about that.) Additionally, doesn't socialism basically set a fixed salary for doctors? (I'm not sure.) If so, why be a brain surgeon when you'll get just as much money as the general practitioner who's over there treating the sniffly people.
Then again, it would definitely help poor people who really need the help, but cannot pay for it. It would potentially save the lives of those who really cannot afford it but who could have made a difference in the world had they not died of that pneumonia they couldn't afford to see a doctor to get the medicine from.
Then again, toss illegals into the mix now. Free healthcare?! Whooo!!
Which would drain society and society's tax money a lot more as well.

Notice I'm playing both sides of the coin. Sparking more debate, playing devil's advocate. .

Well obviously someone whos lung is collapsing would take precedence over someone who has a cold . If the hopsitals are like the ones here, you are going to wait a hell of a long time. Also you might wanna research socialism a bit more before you debate against/for it (not meant to be insulting, just looks like you're a bit confused). And maybe if the upper class wouldn't evade taxes and give a shit about the community there'd be ample money for free health care, better watching the border (and giving a better route to mexicans wishing to live in America then being smuggled in and then being exploited) and funding for additional hospitals and staff.

Also I'm pretty sure you're getting confused as socialized healthcare doesn't mean socialist contry

Edited by Mr. Hobo, 08 February 2008 - 11:40 PM.

[Sugarnspice]

Well obviously someone whos lung is collapsing would take precedence over someone who has a cold . If the hopsitals are like the ones here, you are going to wait a hell of a long time. Also you might wanna research socialism a bit more before you debate against/for it. And maybe if the upper class wouldn't evade taxes and give a shit about the community there'd be ample money for free health care, better watching the border (and giving a better route to mexicans wishing to live in America then being smuggled in and then being exploited) and funding for additional hospitals and staff.

Also I'm pretty sure you're getting confused as socialized healthcare doesn't mean socialist contry

I don't know much about socialist healthcare, just what I have been told by my AP world history teacher. She's made all these claims.

Additionally, the upper class is paying taxes, most americans do pay taxes. And -ILLEGAL- immigrants aren't exploited. Many are living comfortably off of our welfare system, our social security system, totally draining society, and they are ILLEGAL when most people can't access any of this, taxpaying americans who need help.

[Ives]

I can understand why people would look to movies like Sicko and come to the conclusion of national healthcare being in the option, along with what European systems seem to show. Unfortunately the opinion that it isn't a nessecity is usually brushed aside because the people who defend the status quo tend to represent said opinion. I'm hardly for the status quo. There does need to be change in the healthcare system, but I do not believe that government healthcare is the answer. I'm sure it works fine for some European countries (people point to Sweden as a success of social democratic ideas), but with a country like America, not only do you have hell of a lot more government corruption, but you have a much larger population. It's much more divided locally. To me, the best solution would be to be rational human beings. Instead of looking for evil insitutions to tax us and take our money, I think we should have it in our hearts to start a non-for-profit charity, or multiple if nessecary, that can privately provide for the care of individuals who are unable to afford it that provides aid to these people when it comes to health insurance, and making sure they're not only covered but they can be paid for. When it comes to companies, I think the problem seems to be that the industry is in bed with government. Not to keep on repeating the same formula, but I think in this case less government regulation and a separation beyond the nessecary regulations should be required. The idea would be to disadvantage the companies as much as possible, and if they aren't in a secure position like they are in now, they will have to make major reform in order to meet the needs of their clients.

Regarding the movie Sicko -

Sicko says there is a problem but what it offers as a solution is bullshit. It's easy to be sympathetic to the people in the movie. I hate people dying of cancer like that. At the same time, he tried to portray it like that was a strictly American problem. He portrays leaving bureaucrats to the problem as almost romantic in the way he talks of England, Canada, and France like theyre the ideal. Now, the actual quality may be higher at the moment, but said countries do have flaws (theres a very low percentage of people living in Britain that regard their system as having enough money or being spent well.), and how he portrays Cuba is just awful. He went to one of the richest parts of Cuba to do that, not in the poor healthcare facilities which are so low quality its just pathetic.

Now, I know I've argued for the side against universal healthcare, but I will say that there could be one exception: A voucher system, just as should be done with education. However, I believe the voucher issued should not be exclusively for healthcare. It would accomodate some of the healthcare costs, and it would be managed on a state government basis, handing x money to residents. Nobody should be coerced into buying health insurance, though there might be some exception for children. That way, the actual money the government is issuing isn't the typical welfare. It's more of a "heres x money, this is your money, and you have the freedom to spend it on this or that." There would be no government encouragement to spend it on health insurance beyond matching the cost of healthcare, and there would probably need to be a consitutional amendment which says "No official should be able to issue money and take advantage of them." Seeing how the constitution has been shat on by every president since Hoover, this might be ineffective, hence why I'm not fully supporting it, but theres my one exception.

A little last bit of info here: The people who argue for universal healthcare aren't arguing in favor of socialism, theyre arguing for something more along social democratic lines. There is a trend in Europe of small s socialism - that is, socialist ideas mixed with capitalism. Whether they work or not is a debate of its own, and is irrelevant to here.

Edited by Athean, 11 February 2008 - 11:07 AM.

[Tetiel]

You know America's health system wouldn't be so bad if people actually had some self control. No offense to those who are obese but obese people are costing America billions and billions of dollars every year just from medical expensive from diabetes to heart attacks. Right now I'd like to see them try to fix the problem at the roots.

Oh yes and here's a radical thought - get rid of the insurance business. It's a business so obviously it's out to get as much money possible. Not to insult the man but it's just how businesses are and how they survive. Doctors used to be a lot more cheaper before insurance came into play. Doctors were just doctors and only really had to hire nurses. Now they have to hire a whole separate type of staff just to deal with the insurance companies and make sure they are paid. They are possibly the ones really breaking it. I think the only insurance that we really could need is emergency serious medical insurance such as things like cancer or being hit by a car. Any regular doctor's visit you don't need it and it would be a lot cheaper if you didn't have it. The only time insurance is more beneficial to you than saving your own money (and with the amount of debt people are in these days because of irresponsible spending and credit card debt we need people to get their acts together on that too and be rational) is if you're unusually ill.