34 replies to this topic

[Melchoire]

So I'm writing a summary of the event I was wondering if my text book is biased(which I suspect it is). I heard from different sources that even before the bombings Japan was trying to surrender to the US but Truman wanted to end the war quickly without giving into Japan's terms for surrender.

Is this true? Maybe a war expert can fill me in on the details.

[Waser Lave]

The Japanese rejected the offer to surrender via the Potsdam Declaration despite knowing that they would be attacked if they didn't accept it.

(Any idea why they didn't bomb Tokyo?)

[Melchoire]

I was taught that we sent out a letter describing OUR terms for surrender and the Japanese government denied it and about a week later we bombed them. Least that was my argument in my essay on it 0_0

The Japanese rejected the offer to surrender via the Potsdam Declaration despite knowing that they would be attacked if they didn't accept it.

(Any idea why they didn't bomb Tokyo?)

Yeah I'm reading up on those and it says that the ultimatum had no mention of nuclear weapons at all.

[Waser Lave]

Yeah I'm reading up on those and it says that the ultimatum had no mention of nuclear weapons at all.

It wouldn't have been so effective if they told them what was going to happen. The US president said something about something coming from the air the likes of which had never been seen (I can't remember exactly what he said ). So they knew that there would be something big happening in retaliation. I think leaflets were also dropped over the cities which we going to be hit too.

Edited by Laser Wave, 25 March 2008 - 05:37 PM.

[Frizzle]

A few things to add is the fact the Soviet Union and the USA were in a nuclear arms race and this was the perfect opprutinity (sp) to beat the Russians with a bomb. Also, something about sending boats to America but being turned down pops up in my mind aswell.

Sorry for a shit explantion, it's late.

[foogie]

I'm pretty sure that's what happened.

but don't ask me, I've only personally seen all the memorials and museums and parks in hiroshima, and been 4 times to all the nagasaki ones. XD

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

american soldiers who were against the bombs even dropped warnings after the first bomb dropped, saying to evacuate the city and whatnot. didn't work.


here, have some photosI took in hiroshima!!

Atomic Bomb dome


this cool setup they have out front the museum, lines up to see the dome thrugh the middle


showing how the skin melted right off the people


melted shit!


peace cranes



this is the statue at the memorial park in Nagasaki, symbolizes peace between land and the sky (bombs dropped from the sky)

[Melchoire]

No, I'm pretty sure the declaration said something along the lines of "Ultimate destruction of the Japan homeland".



Source

They kept true to their word. A week later there was utter destruction

That doesn't necessarily mean nuclear weapons. They could have easily thought of it as a bluff. I heard there are often those kinds of "big" threats in war ultimatums.

A few things to add is the fact the Soviet Union and the USA were in a nuclear arms race and this was the perfect opprutinity (sp) to beat the Russians with a bomb. Also, something about sending boats to America but being turned down pops up in my mind aswell.

Sorry for a shit explantion, it's late.

Well you give me the bases for more research so thanks

[Waser Lave]

This was before the arms race xD

Technically the arms race was started with the Nazis. Einstein wrote a letter to the US more or less begging them to make the bomb before the Nazis did.

[Melchoire]

I'm pretty sure that's what happened.

but don't ask me, I've only personally seen all the memorials and museums and parks in hiroshima, and been 4 times to all the nagasaki ones. XD

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

american soldiers who were against the bombs even dropped warnings after the first bomb dropped, saying to evacuate the city and whatnot. didn't work.


here, have some photosI took in hiroshima!!

Atomic Bomb dome


this cool setup they have out front the museum, lines up to see the dome thrugh the middle


showing how the skin melted right off the people


melted shit!


peace cranes



this is the statue at the memorial park in Nagasaki, symbolizes peace between land and the sky (bombs dropped from the sky)

That third picture is so sad speaking of which have you seen Barefoot Gen?

[foogie]

That third picture is so sad speaking of which have you seen Barefoot Gen?

no, I haven't... but if I remember correctly, they sold it in the giftshop at the museum in hiroshima...

[Melchoire]

Well it would be illogical if they were to have specifically stated Nuclear Weapons. At the time only like what .. less than %1 of the people in the world knew about the Atomic Bomb? If the Japanese would have surrendered than the Atomic bomb would have still been kept a secret. The point of not explicitly mentioning it was to keep it secret in case the Japanese did surrender.

I don't see how it's illogical they could have explained how nuclear weapons work and it's devastating effects, maybe even show some proof. Then give them a week to think it over and that's not nearly long enough for japan to build their own weapons. Plus the american army had more than enough troops to take over and defeat japan without the use of nuclear bombs. coupled with the help of the allies I think nuclear weapons unnecessary.

no, I haven't... but if I remember correctly, they sold it in the giftshop at the museum in hiroshima...

So sad, actually made me cry(keep in mind I was 11 at the time)

[Waser Lave]

I don't see how it's illogical they could have explained how nuclear weapons work and it's devastating effects, maybe even show some proof. Then give them a week to think it over and that's not nearly long enough for japan to build their own weapons. Plus the american army had more than enough troops to take over and defeat japan without the use of nuclear bombs. coupled with the help of the allies I think nuclear weapons unnecessary.

The point was to reduce the allied casualties, waiting even a week would mean lots of extra lives lost. Of course they could have invaded with thousands of troops which would have taken months but what's the point when you can just drop a couple of bombs?

[Frizzle]

I was referring to the Arms race with the Soviet Union.

The arms race started in the early 40's. Technological advances started in the last 30's.

And am I wrong to think the beaches at nagasaki turned to glass?

[Grizzy]

I thought everyone learnt that in school. I don't know if it's true...man...gotta question everything now.
Anyways the 2nd bomb was just unnecessary and mean
=/

[Melchoire]

The point was to reduce the allied casualties, waiting even a week would mean lots of extra lives lost. Of course they could have invaded with thousands of troops which would have taken months but what's the point when you can just drop a couple of bombs?

Well you never know how the scenario would have played out. Maybe the japanese could have realized that defeat was inevitable(with the vast number of opposing troops and no support from anyone else) and surrendered sooner.

Edited by FlashGM, 25 March 2008 - 06:00 PM.

[Waser Lave]

Well you never know how the scenario would have played out. Maybe the japanese could have realized that defeat was inevitable(with the vast number of opposing troops and no support from anyone else) and surrendered sooner.

Are you forgetting how important honour is to Japanese culture? They resorted to suicide attacks (kamikazes, human torpedoes etc) rather than defeat so it's not very likely that they'd surrender so easily...that was the whole problem in the first place.

[pyke]

A few things to add is the fact the Soviet Union and the USA were in a nuclear arms race and this was the perfect opprutinity (sp) to beat the Russians with a bomb. Also, something about sending boats to America but being turned down pops up in my mind aswell.

Sorry for a shit explantion, it's late.

This was before the arms race xD

Well, considering that the Soviets and the US were in a race to produce nuclear weapons prior to what you'd consider an arms race, it's pretty significant. Some political scientists believe that this was the first act of the cold war, rather then the last act of WWII.

Some views would suggest that the US has fully intended to test their weapons on a primary civilian location in order to determine the full effects as well as send a message to the Soviets. It's been shown that Japan hadn't surrendered under the US terms, because the US had not clarified if the complete surrender also included the removal of their religious figures (the US basically refused to clarify this).

As well, the expected death tolls that US forces that you typically see were apparently a huge exaggeration. The figures you see were taken from an old article, while ignoring many other estimations that were often below 10,000 (as opposed to a million). The fact that the military had been against the dropping of the bombs and that the US public was uneasy about the whole ordeal is often overlooked.

However, the above view is from a very typical crybaby political science professor. Just thought I'd offer it.

[pyke]

Well maybe it's what I define as an arms race. I believe the Arms Race between the U.S and Soviet didn't start until the Soviet jacked the plans to the Atomic Bomb and started producing and testing their own. From that point on we started development on the H-Bomb, which of course the Soviets later got, and thus began the Arms Race. So, I guess to me it didn't start until after WWII because they the Soviet's didn't have the A-Bomb till after WWII. Make sense to me

There may not have been a nuclear arms race, but there was definitely mounting tension and push for military might. I probably should have clarified what I was saying

From what I've read, the Soviet's were never really as close to matching the US as it had appeared. They bankrupted themselves in the attempt xD

[Germ]

I learned that if the Japan did not stop what it was doing the U.S would bomb them. The Japan thought it was a bluff and soon after they got bombed. I did not hear of anything about surrender the way my teacher and the text book explained it. o.O

[Melchoire]

K so this is what I wrote:

Atomic bombs dropped on Japan: (August 6, 1945) the nuclear attacks by America on the Japanese cities of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. During the time Harry S. Truman was the American president. Before the bombings Japan was offered an ultimatum to surrender or they would suffer “the inevitable and complete destruction of the Japanese armed forces and just as inevitably the utter devastation of the Japanese homeland” [Postdam Ultimatum]. The ultimatum made no mention of nuclear weapons. Japan’s request, for the US to clarify whether their religious figures would be removed, was refused and subsequently they rejected the ultimatum. Following the rejection the US dropped two bombs on Nagasaki and Hiroshima, respectively. There were plans for more bombings in the future(one in the following week, three in September, and three in October) but Japan surrendered on September 2, 1945 and the war in the pacific ended and thus WWII was over. This event is significant because it is the first time and only time a nuclear weapon has been used against a nation in history. The bombings resulted in the deaths of more than 220,000 civilians and thousands more as result of exposure to the radiation.

Anyone wanna add important that they can back up with some evidence?

[Melchoire]

Where's your source for the Japanese asking about the religious figures? I've never heard about it so just wondering

I just got that from pyke, earlier. I'm looking for the source on it right now

[Alex]

During WW2, there were a lot of tensions in the love triangle of the US, England and Soviet Union. One side often contacted the other leaving out the third, sometimes one country would be uninvited to meetings, etc. Germany had already surrendered like months earlier and was divided up, so I suppose there could be something to the theory that it was a show of might.

Edited by Alex, 25 March 2008 - 09:37 PM.

[Tetiel]

Are you forgetting how important honour is to Japanese culture? They resorted to suicide attacks (kamikazes, human torpedoes etc) rather than defeat so it's not very likely that they'd surrender so easily...that was the whole problem in the first place.

Dear God it's not just only that either :\ When the US forces invaded a Japanese manned island all of the people if they couldn't escape committed suicide. Women with their children... jumping off clips... men slitting their guts out. It was just horrible and that's why they knew they couldn't go my invasion. They'd all die. All of the citizens so they started bombing factories and that's why Hiroshima was bombed because it was a large war producer.

You're totally right. They would have never surrendered otherwise. I think the Japanese would have thought it was an empty threat and just would have laughed in our faces if we even told them about the atomic bombs...

[adonis]

Hmm no one here has mentions the attempted coup that resulted in the emperor being held captive and stopped Japan's surrender from being broadcast to thier people prior to the bombs dropping. I agree with 100% certainty the bombs were dropped as a show of force to Russia and as payback for Pearl Harbor. They were not to make Japan surrender. FFS American B-52 bombers were carpet bombing every major city by the thousands prior to Truman asking for an unconditional surrender. The Japanese already had thier navy and air force utterly annilated and were removed from every island in the Pacific. The war was well over.

[Melchoire]

Dear God it's not just only that either :\ When the US forces invaded a Japanese manned island all of the people if they couldn't escape committed suicide. Women with their children... jumping off clips... men slitting their guts out. It was just horrible and that's why they knew they couldn't go my invasion. They'd all die. All of the citizens so they started bombing factories and that's why Hiroshima was bombed because it was a large war producer.

You're totally right. They would have never surrendered otherwise. I think the Japanese would have thought it was an empty threat and just would have laughed in our faces if we even told them about the atomic bombs...

Committing suicide? Sounds a little farfetched....

Hmm no one here has mentions the attempted coup that resulted in the emperor being held captive and stopped Japan's surrender from being broadcast to thier people prior to the bombs dropping. I agree with 100% certainty the bombs were dropped as a show of force to Russia and as payback for Pearl Harbor. They were not to make Japan surrender. FFS American B-52 bombers were carpet bombing every major city by the thousands prior to Truman asking for an unconditional surrender. The Japanese already had thier navy and air force utterly annilated and were removed from every island in the Pacific. The war was well over.

What's your source on that? Sorry if I'm being to skeptical but I've learned not to believe everything western society teaches you.