75 replies to this topic

[Melchoire]

I'm assuming he means it is the true book of god?

Yeah, the truth seems to be getting stretched a lot these days =P

[Melchoire]

Truth is God. He is eternally true and so is His Word.

Don't start getting technical with me son!

[redlion]

Not if it's the God of the Bible

Hah. Funny how their religion was endorsed by all of the living apostles save Simon (and Mary Magdalene , but she isn't a disciple) in their lifetimes, and yours wasn't. The last mortals to see Christ think that Catholicism was right, yet you question them? That takes more balls to say than anything else you have, considering they're the founders of Christianity.

[Ives]

I don't get why the idea of your purpose being to die and nourish the maggots is one we try to run away from. I don't believe in God, nor do I believe in anything, really. I'm not a nihilist, I just am a human. I like to live, but I understand that when I die, I will die, and that I will cease to exist. For the meantime, I'll have fun, and do what I feel is in my best self-interest. Right now that's pursuing what I want to as an amateur as I no longer need to have a real job. Maybe I'll never reach my mid-term goals but I have a long-term insurance plan that I'll serve some purpose, even on a very localized microeconomic scale.

[redlion]

What are you talking about? I'm totally lost on how the Bible supports this:

Nor do I remember anywhere it talking about Purgatory, nor treating Mary as a saint (and worshiping her), the list goes on.

So its up to you, or Martin Luther, whatever, to determine that they've been doing it wrong all this time? Somehow, that doesn't add up. You aren't even reading the same bible as the first Christians were; you're reading a translation of a translation of a translation. That catechism passage is merely saying that the word of revelation is only to be interpreted by Christians; pagans can't and shouldn't be trusted to interpret it. And that certain traditions, like Baptism and the Last Rites, should be respected by would-be Christians. How is that offensive to the Bible?

I don't get why the idea of your purpose being to die and nourish the maggots is one we try to run away from. I don't believe in God, nor do I believe in anything, really. I'm not a nihilist, I just am a human. I like to live, but I understand that when I die, I will die, and that I will cease to exist. For the meantime, I'll have fun, and do what I feel is in my best self-interest. Right now that's pursuing what I want to as an amateur as I no longer need to have a real job. Maybe I'll never reach my mid-term goals but I have a long-term insurance plan that I'll serve some purpose, even on a very localized microeconomic scale.

How is it that you managed to not need a job?

[Cataliste]

You `can` follow the moral compass but unlike how we follow it you do not see it as being required. There's a huge difference in how an Atheist interprets morality as depicted by the Bible and how a Christian interprets it.

I was not saying there's no reason not to follow the morals, but that there is reasoning when one chooses not to follow the morals. Because of the loss of absolute truth there is no true morality therefor one who chooses not to have morals (or chooses his or her own morals) is being rational.

I would love to "get you started" on morality over PM. I'm interested in how you defend your own morality as being right other than out of pure selfishness.

But that truth is only absolute to you because you think it is absolutely true. For a second, just step back and pretend you don't unquestioningly believe in the Bible. Let's just look at the Bible as a book. Now, would you following said book be just as wrong as me in your perception of morality? Without the faith you hold in that, it would simply be a list of moral guidelines you chose to follow because they sounded good to you, they sound right. If they sound right, then they must align with your own moral compass. So, in truth, the only thing that separates you and I, using your own definition, is the fact that you believe in the Bible. I hold that this is the exact same thing I am doing. The only little difference is you have a book (which no one can prove scientifically) that was written by your God.

Oh, and the Catholoc Church (i.e not Christians) is not Christianity. So why would I care what they did?

Well shit. Someone should probably tell them that. They've been operating under one huge misconception for centuries.

[Jewbert]

But that truth is only absolute to you because you think it is absolutely true. For a second, just step back and pretend you don't unquestioningly believe in the Bible. Let's just look at the Bible as a book. Now, would you following said book be just as wrong as me in your perception of morality? Without the faith you hold in that, it would simply be a list of moral guidelines you chose to follow because they sounded good to you, they sound right. If they sound right, then they must align with your own moral compass. So, in truth, the only thing that separates you and I, using your own definition, is the fact that you believe in the Bible. I hold that this is the exact same thing I am doing. The only little difference is you have a book (which no one can prove scientifically) that was written by your God.


Well shit. Someone should probably tell them that. They've been operating under one huge misconception for centuries.

I wish I could write down stuff people told me in my dreams so people could believe in said sayings and follow them.

Wouldn't THAT be bitchin' ?
Lawl.

[Melchoire]

I wish I could write down stuff people told me in my dreams so people could believe in said sayings and follow them.

Wouldn't THAT be bitchin' ?
Lawl.

Women aren't allowed to speak in this thread!

[Ives]

How is it that you managed to not need a job?

If you talk out of your ass about various subjects (read: philosophy) for about a year your friends and family tend to support you with all the cash you can get. I've refused any inheritance money I was supposed to get in march this year, so my sister is helping pay most of my bills because shes the one who got the scratch, and my other friends who enjoy my company pay for little shit.

[redlion]

Women aren't allowed to speak in this thread!

What religion are we talking about?

[Cataliste]

But that truth is only absolute to you because you think it is absolutely true. For a second, just step back and pretend you don't unquestioningly believe in the Bible. Let's just look at the Bible as a book. Now, would you following said book be just as wrong as me in your perception of morality? Without the faith you hold in that, it would simply be a list of moral guidelines you chose to follow because they sounded good to you, they sound right. If they sound right, then they must align with your own moral compass. So, in truth, the only thing that separates you and I, using your own definition, is the fact that you believe in the Bible. I hold that this is the exact same thing I am doing. The only little difference is you have a book (which no one can prove scientifically) that was written by your God.


Well shit. Someone should probably tell them that. They've been operating under one huge misconception for centuries.

Response is demanded.

[Jewbert]

Women aren't allowed to speak in this thread!

Ah. Ok. What if I told you I grew a ding dong just for a few moments for this thread?


No?

-waddles off-

[redlion]

Yes, ultimately it does come down to faith. I think you missed my point a bit. My point was that me, being a Christian, have a source for absolute truth. This cannot be said for Atheists. They do not believe nor have proven anything eternal that can be equated to absolute truth. I'm not saying that what I believe is absolutely true and that therefor I must be right and since Atheists do not then they must be wrong. The whole point of even talking about morals was that I, having belief God is the absolute truth, have grounds to form my absolutely true morals whereas Atheists, having no such source do not have such grounds to create morals therefor in an atheistic mindset morals cannot effectively exist (unless they are conceived by man, but then you run into not having an absolute truth with which to test those morals conceived).

Hope that cleared things up

Atheists don't have absolute truth? The laws of physics maybe? The scientific method? Anything related to fact? Those can't be considered absolute truth? And what makes your beliefs absolute truth? What YOU say. Not any proof, not anything reliable; just guesswork and faith.

[Melchoire]

Ah. Ok. What if I told you I grew a ding dong just for a few moments for this thread?


No?

-waddles off-

Why'd you have to make it all awkward? =P

[Jewbert]

Why'd you have to make it all awkward? =P

I... don't know. I a loser.

[Cataliste]

Yes, ultimately it does come down to faith. I think you missed my point a bit. My point was that me, being a Christian, have a source for absolute truth. This cannot be said for Atheists. They do not believe nor have proven anything eternal that can be equated to absolute truth. I'm not saying that what I believe is absolutely true and that therefor I must be right and since Atheists do not then they must be wrong. The whole point of even talking about morals was that I, having belief God is the absolute truth, have grounds to form my absolutely true morals whereas Atheists, having no such source do not have such grounds to create morals therefor in an atheistic mindset morals cannot effectively exist (unless they are conceived by man, but then you run into not having an absolute truth with which to test those morals conceived).

Hope that cleared things up

Well. I think my morals are true. That's all that really matters for me. Call me selfish, but in reality, you are just as selfish for believing the Bible unquestionably. Yeah. Believing in the Bible was a choice you made for yourself because you felt it would help you in some way, or because it sounded right. You are absolutely right. Your morality has a source for comparison (the law maker). So, to give my morality an equally imaginary leg to stand on, I will tell you my morality is deeply connected to Mr. Rogers. He taught me everything I know.



And yes. I know the flaw, my "law maker" is man, but I think Mr. Rogers was about as moral as Jesus was. I mean shit, he is Mr. Rogers!

I... don't know. I a loser.

You is not a loser... I loves you butt head.

[Melchoire]

I... don't know. I a loser.

explains a lot... =P

[Cataliste]

Did you read the entire post? Why do you insist of reiterating the useless point of my beliefs not being absolutely true?

Let me ask this: What absolute truth exists from which man can determine the right and wrong of morality? Surely it's not man because man is not capable of creating absolute truth because to determine if what was made is absolutely true one would need to know all evidence in order to effectively state that thing is absolutely true.

We've had scientific theories we once perceived as truth only later to find something else that contradicts it. Recent discoveries like dark matter are starting to contradict the very foundations some believed to actually be absolutely true.



Do you believe that Mr. Rogers created everything and that was he says is absolutely true? My entire point is that Atheists do not, from what I know, have an absolute truth from which to derive the right and wrong from morality. There's nothing wrong with getting your morals form Mr. Rogers, that's completely beside the point. The point is not where we get them from, but whether we see that source as being absolutely true.

If you believe what Mr. Rogers says is absolutely true then we need to take a look at Mr. Rogers himself

Take a good look.

[redlion]

Did you read the entire post? Why do you insist of reiterating the useless point of my beliefs not being absolutely true?

Let me ask this: What absolute truth exists from which man can determine the right and wrong of morality? Surely it's not man because man is not capable of creating absolute truth because to determine if what was made is absolutely true one would need to know all evidence in order to effectively state that thing is absolutely true.

We've had scientific theories we once perceived as truth only later to find something else that contradicts it. Recent discoveries like dark matter are starting to contradict the very foundations some believed to actually be absolutely true.

Again, what makes your system of beliefs absolutely true? Faith. So in answer to your question, what absolute truth exists? None outside your fantasy.

[Ives]

Atheists tend to define morals (now, I reject the institution myself) by logic and reason.

If everyone killed each other, it wouldnt work out. If everyone raped each other, that wouldnt work out. So forth and you can come to certain logical conclusions about why some things have been justified in the past as immoral. Everyone eating chocolate clearly isnt immoral. When it comes to issues like homosexuality and abortion, theres more debate. If the numbers are minor both are not problems but if they were causing human life to come to a standstill, then atheists would worry.

It's an individual thing, really. Most atheists I know tend to be rather foolish liberal douchebags, but I'm OK with that because I'm not that sort of person. At the end of the day its just a label. Theres dumb atheists, smart atheists, intellectual atheists and in between, as with christianity. Either way one thing to appreciate is that people who claim atheism tend to actually follow through with their beliefs. Modern Christians tend to take stuff out of context. So I do applaud you that you do actually defend your faith, Josh, if only as a virtue to indicate you do have passion for something, whether it exists or not.

[Sweeney]

My beliefs are not absolutely true.

Atheists do not believe in anything absolutely true that can be used to derive morality.

So, where's the difference, and what are you exactly trying to argue here?

[Frizzle]

Trying to defend blind faith is like pouring water into a cup with a hole in the bottom of it.

[Waser Lave]

Actions which intentionally harm others are bad
Actions which benefit others are good
Everything else is neutral

Not very difficult when you think about it...and no god required. This is the absolute truth.

[/Max]

lol Fox News.

glenn beck is on cnn

[ToxicS]

Woops, I didn't notice it was already a debate thread ><