69 replies to this topic

[Devilfish]

Well he broke one of their laws. I don't even see the debate here.

Awesome. Hundreds of years of evolution of international law and debate in two sentences. My professor would have been proud.

Edited by Devilfish, 30 December 2009 - 01:20 PM.

[Frizzle]

Fuck China. They may have a bigger army then us, but that just means they'll spend more time digging graves.

[jonnykun]

Fuck China. They may have a bigger army then us, but that just means they'll spend more time digging graves.

there are so many things wrong with this

[Devilfish]

Fuck China. They may have a bigger army then us, but that just means they'll spend more time digging graves.

I lol'd bukkits

[pyke]

Fuck China. They may have a bigger army then us, but that just means they'll spend more time digging graves.

I'm sure the US will save your bacon once China flattens you too.

[Frizzle]

I'm sure the US will save your bacon once China flattens you too.

You forget we'll have a conservative in power soon (i.e not a leftist shit like Obama).

Congrats on living off the coat tails of America for the last 200 years by the way, and also having OUR head of state as your ruler.

[Devilfish]

Someday, I'm going to make billions with a device that allows you to strangle people through broadband connection.

[Kuraz]

I don't think you've quite understood that proverb correctly.

That's what my tutor teaches me: we show compassion to each other as long as there is mutual love

That's what I said about capital punishment or imprisonment: it's not a deterrent, mainly because we do not believe that it will happen to us. In our collective mind these things happen to bad people, and very few people are truly willing to believe that they are bad.
Rather than ask about what we can do to punish those who do wrong, we shoul put more effort into the prevention of crime: free education, health care and support for minorities can do that.
Crime will always happen, especially when crime is more organised than most states. If you're looking to eradicate all crime, you're looking at a totalitarian world state with no human rights. At the very least. But no human should be forced to resort to crime because the state and their fellow humans have failed them.


I fail to understand how statement 1 connects to statement 2 (how 'harm to the public' leads to 'no compassion neccesary'). Why are these linked? There seems to be a middle step that got lost somehow. I see no logic in it.

To be perfectly clear about this: I'm not advocating compassion because it gives me a warm fuzzy feeling, but because it can be a powerful catalyst for social and political change. Look at Ghandi, for example. Great anger and outrage can chage the course of history (France in 1789 or Iran this very minute), but so can great compassion.

And one more thing: most people feel that the punishment should fit the crime. Opinions on what punishment fits which crime differ, but the basic idea, that you should not be killed or have your hands chopped off for stealing a stick of gum, is very much alive in most laws. These are not the days of Hamurabi where you got your eye plucked out for blinding another.
I personally feel that in this particular case, the punishment was much, much too severe for the crime. Remember that it is a horrible, pants-shittingly terrifying way to die: captured in a very strange country, no knowlegde of the languae, no trial to speak of, dragged into a sterile room and receiving a lethal injection, probably not fully understanding what's going on... An injection an sich may be sort of humane, but the whole situation sounds like a scene from Inferno.

Sorry I havn't make myself clear (as I am translating the idea from Chinese to English ==)
The logic is: we need to show love to each other as long as there is mutual love.
The problem is, selling drugs harms ones' health, so it is not "loving".
Result: we have the right not to show compassion to him.

I believe severe punishment does help, in the way that it threatens ppl. However, I think it must go with massive awards.
I mean, for example, you transport drugs, you get killed. But if you report someone doing illegal, you get extra 100k instead of giving certificate only.
Under this, ppl will normally drive themselves to do good.

My economies tutor, however, pointed out that the abductors in China usually kill the hostage after receving money (while in other places the hostage will be released).
This is because in China, the punishment for abduction and murder is the same: be executed.
He points out this is the bad thing of Chinese law.

Being judged fairly includes a 30 minute trial and execution shortly thereafter?

if you can't prove yourself innocent, there is not point to wait for another 30 hours right...?

[kittycat]

I'm not a fan of the death penalty... but really, oh well.

[Sweeney]

That's what my tutor teaches me: we show compassion to each other as long as there is mutual love

That's not compassion. Compassion is showing empathy when circumstances are uneven.

if you can't prove yourself innocent, there is not point to wait for another 30 hours right...?

Welcome to the complete opposite of a moral standard.
Have you never heard the term "innocent until proven guilty"?

[Kuraz]

That's not compassion. Compassion is showing empathy when circumstances are uneven.


Welcome to the complete opposite of a moral standard.
Have you never heard the term "innocent until proven guilty"?

let me just elaborate more @@
sorry for making you guys confused.

logic flow:
1. if he loves you, you should love him.
2. when he is treated unfairly, then show compassion.


The term in China is "guilty unless you can prove youself to be innocent". Just 2 kinds of thinking, different ppl have different moral standard.

[Devilfish]

I'm sorry, I've just got too many huge problems with how China treats their citizens an the rest of the world. Thanks for explaining your point of view, it's nice to have some input from someone who actually lives there, but I'm outta this thread before I say something I'll regret.

[Sweeney]

let me just elaborate more @@
sorry for making you guys confused.

logic flow:
1. if he loves you, you should love him.
2. when he is treated unfairly, then show compassion.


The term in China is "guilty unless you can prove youself to be innocent". Just 2 kinds of thinking, different ppl have different moral standard.

That's still not compassion. I strongly suggest not making an argument using a language where your understanding is insufficient to support it.
You won't catch me making an argument in Chinese.

"Guilty until proven innocent" is a fallacious progression of logic. It simply doesn't work.
Simply because it is written in law, does not make it morally justifiable.

[Frizzle]

"Guilty until proven innocent" is a fallacious progression of logic. It simply doesn't work.
Simply because it is written in law, does not make it morally justifiable.

Morales are encouraged by society and cultural means. Obvioulsy China's culture is very different from ours, it's just a shame we had to have a partially innocent man put to death to strengthen this.

[Sweeney]

Morales are encouraged by society and cultural means. Obvioulsy China's culture is very different from ours, it's just a shame we had to have a partially innocent man put to death to strengthen this.

I don't understand the urge to push all different opinions as equally valid.
It really isn't the case.

[Kuraz]

Morales are encouraged by society and cultural means. Obvioulsy China's culture is very different from ours, it's just a shame we had to have a partially innocent man put to death to strengthen this.

okay I am not gonna start a war here. Just one more reply here.

How do you know he is INNOCENT?
The below is taken from a Facebook group.

Akmal was arrested on 12 September 2007 in Urumqi airport in northwestern China and is alleged to have been carrying around 4 kg of heroin. He told officials that the suitcase did not belong to him (I myself won't carry my friends' suitcase to be examined) and that he did not know anything about the drugs. The Chinese authorities did not inform the British Foreign and Commonwealth Office (FCO) of Akmal’s death sentence until several months after it had been handed down.Akmal has always maintained that he went to China to start a career as a pop star (he has no history of singing in public). (I want to be the next MJ, but I have never sing publicly. You believe in me?) While living in Poland (he moved there with plans to set up an airline which he clearly did not have the financial means to do) he wrote a song with a man named Carlos which they wanted to record...
And it is true that different people have different ways of thinking. There are also British who think that this man should be killed.



Continue to read

Edited by Giuseppe di Stefano, 31 December 2009 - 09:00 AM.

[pyke]

You forget we'll have a conservative in power soon (i.e not a leftist shit like Obama).

Congrats on living off the coat tails of America for the last 200 years by the way, and also having OUR head of state as your ruler.

Which makes what difference? China still hugely out populates you and has probably bought/stolen enough American military technology to be too much to handle.

Also, don't be hatin because Canada saw the benefit of improving relations with the US, rather then sticking with a dwindling power that was overseas.

[kadoatie]

Yeah, Chinese people don't have a tolerance for shit like this.

I can confirm that because I am Chinese and my parents were the type of people that would beat you for wasting food.

[pyke]

Like I said, you're the cowardly sidekick of America. But still answer to us technically.

Pretty weak, I expected a bit more then that to be honest. Though I wouldn't call Canada a cowardly nation.

[Oaken]

Akmal was arrested on 12 September 2007 in Urumqi airport in northwestern China and is alleged to have been carrying around 4 kg of heroin.

Alleged? Surely that should suggest to you that there was more to his case than China were willing to reveal. If the amount of Heroin he was carrying can't even be confirmed then you have to worry about what else could have been kept hidden/made up to ensure his death sentence was justifiable....in the eyes of China at least.