69 replies to this topic

[artificial]

Lol indeed.

Still, just because that's what they do doesn't mean we should agree with it.

I don't agree with capital punishment, but America does it anyways.

Different countries have different laws. Bottom line is, if you go to another country you have to be mindful of these laws, and if you break them pay the consequences.

[Mr. Hobo]

Would be understandable if he were a Chinese citizen too but shouldn't he have been sent back to Britain and have been punished there? This is a really odd move by China. What is Britain going to do about it?

[Georgina]

Not sure, been alot on the news about it - loads of appeals from family and government.

Doubt theres much to be done now hes dead to be honest

[Mr. Hobo]

Not sure, been alot on the news about it - loads of appeals from family and government.

Doubt theres much to be done now hes dead to be honest

Ensure it doesn't happen again, give family closure and punish China (I do not look forward to them becoming a superpower )

[saif]

Would be understandable if he were a Chinese citizen too but shouldn't he have been sent back to Britain and have been punished there? This is a really odd move by China. What is Britain going to do about it?

Britain ain't gonna do shit.

Why should he be sent back to Britain?
Should all those G's get sent back from all these other countries serving 20 - life sentences just cos their passports from another country?

They do the shit, get their due and punished by the jurisdiction of where it is applied, and that should be it.
You fall a hole in Jamaica, or you fall in a hole in copehagen, it don't matter. You're in the hole.

Ensure it doesn't happen again, give family closure and punish China (I do not look forward to them becoming a superpower )

What they gonna do? Increase tariffs on their imports and let their people suffer, whilst stunting their GNP?

[Devilfish]

I'm fairly unsympathetic about a lot of these situations. For the most part I feel that if you're stupid enough to commit a crime in a country that's known to be ruthless in it's reaction to said crime, there's little that should be done for you regardless of nationality. Difficult when mental state is involved but if you're supposedly vulnerable enough to be taken advantage of in such a manner perhaps you shouldn't be travelling the world alone in the first place...All very odd.

Well, I can see your point, but a complete lack of empathy never helped change anything. These small time criminals usually do not commit crimes because they're stupid or malicious. Most of them are desperate, vulnarable and/or come from a very bad environment. The way they choose to deal with their problems may not be the best, but acting like they're all greedy idots is denying that there is a deep-seated problem in society as a whole. When people fail to take care of eachother, this is what happens.

Aaaaaand I sound like my pastor. Lovely.

Why should he be sent back to Britain?
Should all those G's get sent back from all these other countries serving 20 - life sentences just cos their passports from another country?

Um, yes. That's why you're not allowed to torture a burglar if you catch him in your house. Stoning people is illegal here, but we're not all flocking to certain countries to go shoot people who do that, right? Everybody has the right to be tried and convicted in the country they are a legal citizen of. There's no discussing that, it's how international law works. And I hope Britain reacts very strongly to this. China has no right to execute any country's citizens other than their own.

Look, I'm seriously biting my tongue here. I'm quite the activist in RL and I don't want to get into a feud on a freaking Neopets forum, but advocating taking basic human rights away from people because youre sorta miffed is pissing me off big time.

I need to know saif, why do you feel so strongly about this?

Edited by Devilfish, 29 December 2009 - 02:07 PM.

[artificial]

Would be understandable if he were a Chinese citizen too but shouldn't he have been sent back to Britain and have been punished there? This is a really odd move by China. What is Britain going to do about it?

That is the most ridiculous concept I have ever heard.
You break the law in another country, and yet because you're not a citizen you shouldn't be persecuted according to their laws?

Perhaps the most important rule of travelling abroad is to be wary of other country's laws.

[Devilfish]

And yet huge diplomatic battles ensue every year when countries refuse to deliver citizens to their home country to be tried and convicted. And rightly so. There are many reasons for this. Here's one. If, for example, I commit a crime in France and get sentenced to a jail term, why should French taxpayer money be used to keep me locked up? Then, if I go back to Belgium to serve my sentence here, I have the right, by law, to ask for a retrail. Human rights are delicate things and not to be trifled with at a whim just because we think it's 'not fair' or 'ridiculous'. These systems are in place to protect you and me as well as anyone.

International law is insanely complex. For the most part, the same rules apply everywhere, it's the sentences that differ. Drug smuggling is a crime pretty much everywhere. But the sharia, for example, isn't upheld here in the west. If I was a woman about to get stoned for what is a crime according to the sharia, I'd sure s hell move to the west too.

I know my legalese English fails, but I'm sure you get my point. Trust me, in Dutch I'd be so eloquent you'd weep

Edited by Devilfish, 29 December 2009 - 03:35 PM.

[Mr. Hobo]

That is the most ridiculous concept I have ever heard.
You break the law in another country, and yet because you're not a citizen you shouldn't be persecuted according to their laws?

Perhaps the most important rule of travelling abroad is to be wary of other country's laws.

I'm not saying you shouldn't be punished but the punishment should be dealt by your own country. It's like a parent punishing someone else's kid.

[Mr. Hobo]

That is the most ridiculous concept I have ever heard.
You break the law in another country, and yet because you're not a citizen you shouldn't be persecuted according to their laws?

Perhaps the most important rule of travelling abroad is to be wary of other country's laws.

What they gonna do? Increase tariffs on their imports and let their people suffer, whilst stunting their GNP?

Would prevent an oppressive dictatorship that exploits its workers from gaining super power status and stop outsourcing jobs (not sure how big of a deal outsourcing is in Britain)

Also stupid server, lagging and giving me problemz.

[Oaken]

I don't want to get into a feud on a freaking Neopets forum

I wouldn't worry about that as there are others that do it. Plus, I find your posts are interesting. At least you put a little thought into your posts before hitting the 'post' button...unlike others *cough saif cough*.

[Devilfish]

Thank you very much for the compliment

[jonnykun]

despite the fact that i think the british guy deserved what happened to him, part of me thinks thaty china was a little too extreme. if you look at it from the other way around, that is...if a chinese immigrant came to america or canada and committed a serious crime he would probably be deported and dealt with in his mother country. but that doesn't excuse him from breaking the law, and upon entering a foreign country, you are agreeing to abide by these laws anyways.

[saif]

Well, I can see your point, but a complete lack of empathy never helped change anything. These small time criminals usually do not commit crimes because they're stupid or malicious. Most of them are desperate, vulnarable and/or come from a very bad environment. The way they choose to deal with their problems may not be the best, but acting like they're all greedy idots is denying that there is a deep-seated problem in society as a whole. When people fail to take care of eachother, this is what happens.

Aaaaaand I sound like my pastor. Lovely.



Um, yes. That's why you're not allowed to torture a burglar if you catch him in your house. Stoning people is illegal here, but we're not all flocking to certain countries to go shoot people who do that, right? Everybody has the right to be tried and convicted in the country they are a legal citizen of. There's no discussing that, it's how international law works. And I hope Britain reacts very strongly to this. China has no right to execute any country's citizens other than their own.

Look, I'm seriously biting my tongue here. I'm quite the activist in RL and I don't want to get into a feud on a freaking Neopets forum, but advocating taking basic human rights away from people because youre sorta miffed is pissing me off big time.

I need to know saif, why do you feel so strongly about this?

It's the same as everywhere, what did Britain do when one their people were executed in Singapore for smuggling drugs? (nothing) How about Australia? When Mr Von got hanged for smuggling 400 grams of heroin? Sure they complained but did anyone do anything to Singapore in retaliation? Nope.
Why the different standards for different countries? Just cos it's China?

I wouldn't worry about that as there are others that do it. Plus, I find your posts are interesting. At least you put a little thought into your posts before hitting the 'post' button...unlike others *cough saif cough*.

Thanks for your useful input, I'm sure everyone appreciated that.
A real contribution to this topic, nice.

[Devilfish]

It's the same as everywhere, what did Britain do when one their people were executed in Singapore for smuggling drugs? (nothing) How about Australia? When Mr Von got hanged for smuggling 400 grams of heroin? Sure they complained but did anyone do anything to Singapore in retaliation? Nope.
Why the different standards for different countries? Just cos it's China?

I'm not sure I understand your point. The EU have condemned all these things very strongly, but understandably nobody is planning to do anything to anyone. The EU is allowed to voice disagreement. I'm sure nobody here is advocating 'retaliation', in whatever way or shape you see that happening. That's not the way forward. I mean no disrespect, but the way you talk, it's like you feel personally persecuted and attacked. And I still don't understand why.

I read in the paper today that the man's trial lasted exactly half an hour and no inquiries were made into his mental health. What we object to here, I think, is the violation of his human rights. We (or I) feel that he has not been given a proper chance to defend himself, that he was not concidered innocent until proven guilty. It's not an attack on China we're after, but rather a defense of those who can't defend themselves. That's what I'm on about in any case. I (gladly) live in a largely socialist country and I believe that a very important task of the state is not the persecution of criminals, but the protection of those who can't take care of themselves, so they won't have to resort to crime in the first place. This, I feel, is where both the British and Chinese governments have failed this man. His own choices need to be concidered, but in a fair trail, the things that lead him to those decisions should be of equal importance.

[Oaken]

Thanks for your useful input, I'm sure everyone appreciated that.
A real contribution to this topic, nice.

I know one person appreciated it . I would be careful if I were you before you head down the same road as haruharu. You are obviously pretty single minded about this particular subject.

Most of the worlds population either have or would condemn this decision. It all comes down to the fact he was not given a fair trial....something that everyone is entitled to. Seems to me like they executed him as quickly as possible before anyone could discover that he might actually be mentally unfit for execution.

Have a read of this and then try and convince me that china respect human rights.

http://www.dailymail...ack-market.html

Officials say the vehicles are a 'civilised alternative' to the traditional single shot to the head (used in 60 per cent of Chinese executions), ending the life of the condemned quickly, clinically and safely - proving that China 'promotes human rights now,' says Kang Zhongwen, designer of the 'death van'.

Oh, so because they now only shoot people in the head 60% of the time they are therefore promoting human rights?

Sounds to me like they are trying to make it as convenient as possible to execute people...and executing someone should not be a convenient thing to do.

[pyke]

"With more than 10,000 kidney transplants carried out each year, fewer than 300 come from voluntary donations. The British Transplantation Society and Amnesty International have condemned China for harvesting prisoners' organs.
"

Well, they got one thing right at least.

[Alexa]

She got 3 months in prison

Seems to me that there's a small difference between death and 3 months in prison!

[unworthy]

The reason I do not really care about them executing one guy for carrying drugs is because it is only one guy who was doing something wrong. There are thousands of people dying every day because of things beyond their control so I would rather save my sympathies for people who deserve it.

[Devilfish]

Here's the thing with sympathy and compassion; if you're only able to give it to those who easily deserve it, it's not real compassion at all. Compassion is not a limited commodity. Eveyone is capable of pricisely as much compession as they are willing to give.

[Kuraz]

I think this is the same in most countrys.

Drug lords = major cash for the country and usualy are above the law (well the bigger ones anyway)

But thats why alot of other countrys dont kill the smugglers as it doesnt help anything

True, but what can we do besides punishing them? At least punishment can give some warning, or everone in the world will be committing crimes, and we would not need a law as we don't have someone to execute the law.

Same case as fighting against terrorism.
Can we ever make terrorists EXTINCT? Never, but we try the best to prevent terrorism actions:sarcasm:

Here's the thing with sympathy and compassion; if you're only able to give it to those who easily deserve it, it's not real compassion at all. Compassion is not a limited commodity. Eveyone is capable of pricisely as much compession as they are willing to give.

I am in fact a Chinese though I am using an Italian user name.

From what we learn in Chinese cultural lessons, it says Chinese try to deal most things with compassion, but with the condition that there is mutual love & respect and it does not affect the general wellbeing of people.

For example, the Chinese philosopher, Confucius, once told a story:

"A man's father stole a cow from his neighbour; his son send his father to be judged."
Confucius' comment to this man is that he is disobedient. He should kindly ask his father return the cow to the neighbour. If he refuses, send him to be judged.

That is, stealing a cow from neighbour is not serious enough to cause great trouble which harms many ppl in society, so we should deal with compassion.
However, if he refuses, this shows he is may have intention on stealing others' property as well. As it may cause harm to general public, he should be judged fairly.

Sending drugs is likely to cause harm to general public, so we don't need to show compassion.

Edited by Giuseppe di Stefano, 30 December 2009 - 09:22 AM.

[Sweeney]

Sending drugs is likely to cause harm to general public, so we don't need to show compassion.

I don't think you've quite understood that proverb correctly.

[Devilfish]

True, but what can we do besides punishing them? At least punishment can give some warning, or everone in the world will be committing crimes, and we would not need a law as we don't have someone to execute the law.

That's what I said about capital punishment or imprisonment: it's not a deterrent, mainly because we do not believe that it will happen to us. In our collective mind these things happen to bad people, and very few people are truly willing to believe that they are bad.
Rather than ask about what we can do to punish those who do wrong, we shoul put more effort into the prevention of crime: free education, health care and support for minorities can do that.
Crime will always happen, especially when crime is more organised than most states. If you're looking to eradicate all crime, you're looking at a totalitarian world state with no human rights. At the very least. But no human should be forced to resort to crime because the state and their fellow humans have failed them.

Sending drugs is likely to cause harm to general public, so we don't need to show compassion.

I fail to understand how statement 1 connects to statement 2 (how 'harm to the public' leads to 'no compassion neccesary'). Why are these linked? There seems to be a middle step that got lost somehow. I see no logic in it.

To be perfectly clear about this: I'm not advocating compassion because it gives me a warm fuzzy feeling, but because it can be a powerful catalyst for social and political change. Look at Ghandi, for example. Great anger and outrage can chage the course of history (France in 1789 or Iran this very minute), but so can great compassion.

And one more thing: most people feel that the punishment should fit the crime. Opinions on what punishment fits which crime differ, but the basic idea, that you should not be killed or have your hands chopped off for stealing a stick of gum, is very much alive in most laws. These are not the days of Hamurabi where you got your eye plucked out for blinding another.
I personally feel that in this particular case, the punishment was much, much too severe for the crime. Remember that it is a horrible, pants-shittingly terrifying way to die: captured in a very strange country, no knowlegde of the languae, no trial to speak of, dragged into a sterile room and receiving a lethal injection, probably not fully understanding what's going on... An injection an sich may be sort of humane, but the whole situation sounds like a scene from Inferno.

Edited by Devilfish, 30 December 2009 - 10:02 AM.

[pyke]

Sending drugs is likely to cause harm to general public, so we don't need to show compassion.

Being judged fairly includes a 30 minute trial and execution shortly thereafter?

[Vexage]

Well he broke one of their laws. I don't even see the debate here.