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"Ground Zero Mosque"


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#1 Noitidart

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Posted 23 August 2010 - 10:37 PM

A lot of people think like you man. It's just the few that think the other way and sadly theirs makes for the better story in the media.
People seem to be equating all Muslims to the handful that have caused them harm/distress.


Whatever it is. I think this whole situation is great. More people then ever are learning about Islam and Muslims.


Thanks net man for this topic.


One thing I would like to add though:

This mosque was already in existance and is now undergoing an expensive extensions project. It is not at ground zero but is a couple blocks away.

What disappoints me though is 50 frikkin million dollars on a mosque????!??!!? Im sure there's a rule against extravagance.

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    #2 ShadowLink64

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    Posted 23 August 2010 - 10:41 PM

    In my opinion, not allowing the mosque to be built there violates some fundamental freedoms.

    The problem is that most naive people associate the attacks with what Islam stands for, when it was just extremists that executed the attacks. Extremists can be found in any religion, and to judge Islam solely on the actions of the terrorists is simply not fair. I think it shouldn't be any different than if someone were to want to build a church or a synagogue or something else there. If anything, it shows that America isn't afraid to embrace various cultures.

    #3 Warriors

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    Posted 23 August 2010 - 10:46 PM

    I highly believe most Americans believe that..I mean the Constitution states that government cannot stop religion in these regards, especially one over another...I think it's more disturbing how the media always is showing these racist, bigoted rantings from Americans and espouse it to be the belief of the majority. As long as New York local and state government approve this and give them the go ahead that's all that should matter...

    #4 Noitidart

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    Posted 23 August 2010 - 10:47 PM

    You and SL are wise wise people! Absolutely way above the norm.

    Hey I always wanted to talk to you about the Israel/Palestine issue. The media and Israel always throw out Israel's enemies as terrorists. But you and SL seem to see through it. Like the media only shows terrorists and islam but you see that terrorism is not islam. What are your sources for news? I'm sure all a person has to do is just use some common sense.

    #5 Scot

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    Posted 23 August 2010 - 10:51 PM

    Posted Image

    #6 Noitidart

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    Posted 23 August 2010 - 10:53 PM

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAAHAHHAHAHAHA
    Gawd scot we can always count on you to get a message across with awesome humor.

    #7 ShadowLink64

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    Posted 23 August 2010 - 11:02 PM

    You and SL are wise wise people! Absolutely way above the norm.

    Hey I always wanted to talk to you about the Israel/Palestine issue. The media and Israel always throw out Israel's enemies as terrorists. But you and SL seem to see through it. Like the media only shows terrorists and islam but you see that terrorism is not islam. What are your sources for news? I'm sure all a person has to do is just use some common sense.

    Canadian and British media are what I watch mostly (CBC, CTV, BBC, Reuters, etc..). I'm sure that it's still biased in certain ways, but it's difficult to identify the political affiliation of these news sources (other than CBC being slightly liberal). :p On the contrary, I can identify pretty easily whether or not an American media outlet is conservative, or liberal, or whatever (though there's probably some that are fine). Fox News, for instance, is incredibly biased and I don't even view it as a valuable news source. :p

    About the Israel/Palestine issue: I understand the history of it and why both sides are angry. However, it's a very difficult issue to analyze, and it's not just one side at fault. A lot of things are exaggerated in the media, especially the rocket attacks against Israel. However, I don't really take a specific stance because both sides have legitimate reasons for being there.

    #8 bobsauce

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    Posted 23 August 2010 - 11:05 PM

    Inside the U.S the whole thing is ridiculous. They should be where ever they buy and build.

    Outside the U.S and in terms of terrorism my friend had a very interesting conversation.

    He is Muslim and from morocco, a fairly religiously diverse country (Mosques next to synagogues in a mainly Arab country.). He visited a friend in Lebanon and asked him very pointedly:
    "How can people suicide bomb if in the Koran it clearly states that suicide is a sin."
    The response which will live in my mind forever:
    "They've killed my mother, my brother, my friends, my cousins-no one I know is unaffected. One day they WILL kill me. Its not a matter of religion or sin or honor. I will kill as many of them as I can before they kill me too."
    That of course isn't aimed at the U.S.

    ------------------
    On a separate note. A cartoon came out that depicted the Holocaust recently. The newspaper was sued and fined like $3,000 by the court. The exact same court ruled years ago in a lawsuit that the same newspaper depicting Muhammad (which is just as grievous to a Muslim) was freedom of speech and legal. The newspaper latter said that they had released the second cartoon to prove the world wasn't equal in the law.


    p.s I'm not Muslim or extremist in any way, just fascinated by the ways of the world.

    #9 Warriors

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    Posted 23 August 2010 - 11:09 PM

    You and SL are wise wise people! Absolutely way above the norm.

    Hey I always wanted to talk to you about the Israel/Palestine issue. The media and Israel always throw out Israel's enemies as terrorists. But you and SL seem to see through it. Like the media only shows terrorists and islam but you see that terrorism is not islam. What are your sources for news? I'm sure all a person has to do is just use some common sense.



    Sources of News: CNN, Daily Show/Colbert Report/BBC/Financial Times/SF Chronicle.

    Noit, it's a bunch of things that go way back...It could be some of these or neither..

    It could be the color mentality..Where people of color are treated different..I doubt it but just saying...

    But most likely it's because The US and Israel have always been buddy buddy in politics. The Jewish lobbyists, not to say its some conspiracy theory, they are like any other Lobby group, NRA, UFW, are very high in political circles in Washington. These groups help in negotiations and talks in implenting local,national, and foreign policy. They have tons of money at their disposal so they always try to get their way. This is one of the main reasons the United States gives about $4 billion in aid a year to the state of Israel when it receives no products from Israel. Nada. They have no exports really to the US. We depend on China more heavily. Now this isn't being anti-semetic or anything, I hate all races equally =P. And it really doesn't help when any legitimate criticism lodged against Israel, they counteract with claims of anti-semitism.

    There is also the Neo-Con thinking, and mind you this is rare but still believed, that since Jews had caused their lord and savior to die, that the ressurection is foretold when all the Jews go back to their homeland and Jesus/God would come down and kill them all for their betrayal.

    As for the Americans..It's a poltical fuckup..No one really knows why, it only seems in America, but heavy media outlets blasting the same crappy news hour after hour has something to do with it. News used to be once in awhile, but now when news is at a standstill in the day, these 24 hr stations have to show something and they do it in such a terrible way. It's all biased crap, whether its from the left or right. You do have to understand that this left leaning politics is usually blamed on people that go to college where the opposite republicans don't usually. I dunno, there are certain studies that say many of those involved in higher education, such as college, are more left leaning in their politics. It's all basically ignorance, since some cannot seperate individuals from the group. Hell Americans did it with Japan and Vietnam and Korea..And now its Iraq/Iran/Afghanistan due to the wars and 9/11.

    To find more info about Jewish Lobbyists and how they work in the US read this..If you believe it or not, its still a great political read. The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy is the title of a book by John Mearsheimer and Stephen Walt.


    And basically in the end..No one knows the true bounds of American idiocy.

    #10 Noitidart

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    Posted 24 August 2010 - 12:34 AM

    Wow real insightful Warriors.

    ROFL @ "And basically in the end..No one knows the true bounds of American idiocy."

    I'm liable for idiocy as well. lol They are nice to each other on the inside though. Even when these upset people work with another person they might have a problem with, they are usually very civil.
    It's a great place just causing problems which could be easily avoided. I'm sure one day it will.

    #11 iargue

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    Posted 24 August 2010 - 02:50 AM

    I guess people forgot that muslims died that day to.

    #12 Jake

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    Posted 24 August 2010 - 03:02 AM

    This makes for a huge clusterfuck of hics.

    #13 luvsmyncis

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    Posted 24 August 2010 - 05:43 AM

    Some Americans are still deeply, personally hurt from that day, and I can understand the anger. The race/religion will always be associated with the attack. Imagine if you were robbed and raped by a black guy with a gold tooth. For the rest of your life you will always have this instinctual hatred or fear of black guys with a gold tooth. That's just how it is.

    Having said that, I personally believe it is their American right to build their center. 



    #14 Volition

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    Posted 24 August 2010 - 05:45 AM

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    epic freaking win. I've seen some video coverage of the protests that are going on, and this is EXACTLY how they act about it. Based on what's happening now, i think there's gonna be rioting in nyc over this.

    edit: on the video there was this one angry lady holding up a sign that says "islam builds mosques on sites of conquest and victory". which i personally found funny :D

    Edited by SilentErektion, 24 August 2010 - 05:53 AM.


    #15 Hydrogen

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    Posted 24 August 2010 - 10:59 AM

    I highly believe most Americans believe that..I mean the Constitution states that government cannot stop religion in these regards, especially one over another...I think it's more disturbing how the media always is showing these racist, bigoted rantings from Americans and espouse it to be the belief of the majority. As long as New York local and state government approve this and give them the go ahead that's all that should matter...

    News is like any other TV show: ratings are the bottom line. News stations make a large chunk of their money by showing advertisements to their viewers so the more viewers you have, the more cash you can bring in. Obviously, then, a news station would prefer to run news stories that will bring viewers to their show. A newscaster will always cover an unbelievable story over a story that sounds more like status updates. For example, my news station recently covered a story about a man randomly stabbing a dog four times. They didn't cover the fact that the local donut shop did its job that day by selling donuts. The second isn't interesting. It won't bring viewers. It's not newsworthy. The fact that you hear something on the news means that it was incredible and worth breaking away from normal routine to discuss it. Unfortunately, the obsession over ratings and viewers leads to some news stations extending the truth.

    Next, believing that it is insensitive to place a Mosque three blocks away from Ground Zero would imply that Islam had something to do with the attacks, when it didn't. Claiming that Muslims build Mosques as a trophy is an even stronger implication of that notion (I've never heard that by the way). I'm actually not sure what the big deal is... the more I hear about this "debate," the more I start believing it is a smokescreen.

    #16 Scot

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    Posted 24 August 2010 - 12:28 PM

    http://www.thedailys...10/mosque-erade


    John Oliver says Muslims are allowed to put a mosque near Ground Zero, just like Catholics can build a church next to a playground.


    #17 Warriors

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    Posted 24 August 2010 - 12:44 PM

    News is like any other TV show: ratings are the bottom line. News stations make a large chunk of their money by showing advertisements to their viewers so the more viewers you have, the more cash you can bring in. Obviously, then, a news station would prefer to run news stories that will bring viewers to their show. A newscaster will always cover an unbelievable story over a story that sounds more like status updates. For example, my news station recently covered a story about a man randomly stabbing a dog four times. They didn't cover the fact that the local donut shop did its job that day by selling donuts. The second isn't interesting. It won't bring viewers. It's not newsworthy. The fact that you hear something on the news means that it was incredible and worth breaking away from normal routine to discuss it. Unfortunately, the obsession over ratings and viewers leads to some news stations extending the truth.

    Next, believing that it is insensitive to place a Mosque three blocks away from Ground Zero would imply that Islam had something to do with the attacks, when it didn't. Claiming that Muslims build Mosques as a trophy is an even stronger implication of that notion (I've never heard that by the way). I'm actually not sure what the big deal is... the more I hear about this "debate," the more I start believing it is a smokescreen.


    I agree with you on the news, but most people who watch news take it literally when FoxNews interviews "specialists" and spout nonsense. That is what we are trying to figure out, it's pretty astonishing as a political science major, how Muslims as a group are being targeted when its the actions of individuals. It's the same as an bible thumping conservatives attacking Abortion clinics.. But I do find it perplexing that throughout the USA's history as a nation many groups were labeled as such as the Muslims were. Blacks were, Japanese, Vietnamese, Italians, Jews, and now Muslims. But with the Muslims, it seems a bit different due to the media and the constant barrage of crap coming out aswell as the wars in which these Muslims..or "terrorists" are seen as different..It's a different mentalitly these days.

    #18 Sumgirl

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    Posted 24 August 2010 - 01:10 PM

    I dont agree with the people who oppose the mosque being built but I can I guess sort of sympathize with them? My uncle died on 9/11 I was in the 6th grade when it happened. And I have been and honestly still am scared that something like this can happen again. You have to remember hate is sometimes brought on by fear of the unknown. These people have lost family member and friends and they are scared, how scared were you when you watched the live coverage of this happening? How much more so for those that were there that survived it. I don't think that protesting it is right, but I can understand why they are doing it. And that is my two cents, I hope I haven't offended anyone.

    #19 Warriors

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    Posted 25 August 2010 - 09:37 PM

    I dont agree with the people who oppose the mosque being built but I can I guess sort of sympathize with them? My uncle died on 9/11 I was in the 6th grade when it happened. And I have been and honestly still am scared that something like this can happen again. You have to remember hate is sometimes brought on by fear of the unknown. These people have lost family member and friends and they are scared, how scared were you when you watched the live coverage of this happening? How much more so for those that were there that survived it. I don't think that protesting it is right, but I can understand why they are doing it. And that is my two cents, I hope I haven't offended anyone.


    As for being scared, nope. I think I was more of an asshole..I didn't really give a shit. I just found it interesting like other news, but in no way was I affected at all by it really, to be honest. I am just indifferent in a way...I mean this shit happens around the world daily, granted not always to such a scale as 9/11...As for them protesting it, yes the sentiments can be construed in certain ways that may affect certain people. But, you do realize that many Mosques have been there since 9/11 and even after with no uproar...We have to look at it that what valid reasons should it not be built. And frankly, there are none. The only valid reasons is if it were to be a hazard under local and state ordinances, and if the state of NY did not approve it. Religious freedom is a fundamental freedom that cannot be infringed on by any group, be it the majority, minority, factions, or government. I would take in the opposing side's view with much more respect and integrity if they can give valid reasons why not to build it there and maybe somewhere close by, but mostly all I hear is hate-fueled venom. They offer moral justifications and ignorant asinine comments.

    #20 Noitidart

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    Posted 25 August 2010 - 11:28 PM

    Hey was it proved who did the twin tower attacks?


    If anyone can convince this mosque $50m is wayyyy too much. That would be awesome. I think poor people can so use that money.

    #21 Warriors

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    Posted 25 August 2010 - 11:50 PM

    Hey was it proved who did the twin tower attacks?


    If anyone can convince this mosque $50m is wayyyy too much. That would be awesome. I think poor people can so use that money.


    Organized Religion is gross like that Noit..The greatest Chistianity church is in Cote D'Ivorie, or the Ivory Coast, has the world's largest church with over 300M spent in Africa...Churches built out of gold while their followers suffer..It's just how messed up religion is.

    As for the attackers Noit, I believe they were 19 people with Muslim backgrounds, and ties to Al-Qaeda.

    -15 from Saudia Arabia, I dont think that is Afghanistan or Iraq....
    -2 from United Arab Emirates
    - 1 from Egypt
    - 1 from Lebanon

    Basically it was proven, by numerous Intelligence Agencies throughout the world, that they were Al-Qaeda and that it was under Bin Laden..As for it..It coulda been averted if the US paid attention to their own god-damn security briefs.

    And you know what is funny..Too fucking funny..We could have had Osama Bin Laden, the Afghanistan government agreed to send Bin Laden to another third world country to go on trial. Yet, the US refused and now we don't know where he is. "President George Bush has declined an offer from Afghanistan's Taliban regime to hand over Osama bin Laden. The Taliban have suggested that bin Laden be put on trial in a third country."

    #22 Noitidart

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    Posted 25 August 2010 - 11:56 PM

    Dang no way. Was that proof published? I never actually believed they had the resources to pull something off like that. Hitting a building with a plane I would think would definitely take computer precision.

    Dang that's weird. What would they do after they got bin laden though? Im sure the hate people feel towards the US wouldn't go down. I also think that it wouldn't make the anti-muslim people any friendlier.

    #23 Warriors

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    Posted 26 August 2010 - 12:13 AM

    Dang no way. Was that proof published? I never actually believed they had the resources to pull something off like that. Hitting a building with a plane I would think would definitely take computer precision.

    Dang that's weird. What would they do after they got bin laden though? Im sure the hate people feel towards the US wouldn't go down. I also think that it wouldn't make the anti-muslim people any friendlier.


    Wow..I had a whole nice thing going on before the 500 errors screwed it up...

    I forgot what I said but it went something like the pilot hijacked it and he knew how to fly because he got his private and commercial license in Arizona, and practiced I think, outside of the country of course, and I think San Diego and Florida also...They were trained or being trained to fly, but they still had trouble flying since not lot of practice on commercial airplanes. Also, their initial attack was supposed to be way bigger..Attacking even the CIA and other areas.

    As for Bin Laden, who knows he could have been found guilty, I doubt the US would be happy since they love to kill, or it could have been a setup and found not guilty.

    As for 9/11...the real 9/11 happened in the late 70s in Chile...

    #24 Warriors

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    Posted 26 August 2010 - 12:13 AM

    500 errors made me do it =D

    Edited by Warriors, 26 August 2010 - 12:14 AM.


    #25 Noitidart

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    Posted 26 August 2010 - 12:27 AM

    Dang sorry about the 500 errors it's a lot better lately but still needs to get better.

    No way with that level of training can you target a building that accurately lol. Was that seriously the proof? A few months of flight training?
    What happened in Chile?


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