152 replies to this topic

[Jakerz]

Wtf double post How lol
Yea I didn't get to try mine really

[Jake]

Why does it matter? I smoke it up/drink wherver the hell I want? Ok, a bit of exaggeration, but it feels better getting high in smaller places (for obvious reasons).

[Rolf Lolren]

Make it the same as the alcohol and smoking laws .

[redlion]

It would cost billions and take years to navigate the legislative branch of government to legalize it.

How would it be governed? Would there be a limit on how much is consumed? There isn't a decent barometer for measuring intoxication level like there is for alcohol (BAC), so how would they arrest people that are over their limit?

Also, there are different strains of cannabis with different effects. Sativa and Indica (when the weed is good enough) have completely different effects.

[Grizzly]

Why does it matter? I smoke it up/drink wherver the hell I want? Ok, a bit of exaggeration, but it feels better getting high in smaller places (for obvious reasons).

Yeah, believe me so do I, but it's not fair for me to have to be worried about the cops harrasin everytime I toke up or about getting kicked out of school. It's bull shit. Especially when there's no true justification. And I want legal marijuana in Jersey! Shit's whack here compared to Cali where shit's legal.

It would cost billions and take years to navigate the legislative branch of government to legalize it.

How would it be governed? Would there be a limit on how much is consumed? There isn't a decent barometer for measuring intoxication level like there is for alcohol (BAC), so how would they arrest people that are over their limit?

Also, there are different strains of cannabis with different effects. Sativa and Indica (when the weed is good enough) have completely different effects.

It would cost billions and take years to navigate the legislative branch of government to legalize it.
- Where exactly would these billions of dollars go to, again? In signing a bill? In freeing up millions of jail cells that cost tax payers millions of dollars? Or maybe in collecting taxes from every dime of weed sold once it's legal? What are you talking about?

How would it be governed
- By the government. It is their job after all.
Would there be a limit on how much is consumed?
- No, why would there be? In case you OD on weed?
so how would they arrest people that are over their limit?
- There shouldn't be a limit. Different people have suchhh different tolerances (the different tolerances arn't nearly as discernable as alcohol) it wouldn't even be viable nor would tests be very accurate on concentration. Cops would only have to worry about DUI. And cops already do that buddy. My friend has been arrested simply for being high. The cop made him do stupid tests and it was clear to him he was fucked up. When he wouldn't admit, he was taken to jail and was administered a piss test.

Once again, fail.
And thus, legalize marijuana you stupid stupid fucking government. MYARGHHHH!

[Stepoo]

and homegrown shit isn't as good in quality i've always noticed.

Actually, it depends on the skill of the grower, but homegrown weed is usually top quality. Where do you think the dispensaries in Cali get their inventory?

[pyke]

Yeah, believe me so do I, but it's not fair for me to have to be worried about the cops harrasin everytime I toke up or about getting kicked out of school. It's bull shit. Especially when there's no true justification. And I want legal marijuana in Jersey! Shit's whack here compared to Cali where shit's legal.

How would it be governed
- By the government. It is their job after all.
Would there be a limit on how much is consumed?
- No, why would there be? In case you OD on weed?
so how would they arrest people that are over their limit?
- There shouldn't be a limit. Different people have suchhh different tolerances (the different tolerances arn't nearly as discernable as alcohol) it wouldn't even be viable nor would tests be very accurate on concentration. Cops would only have to worry about DUI. And cops already do that buddy. My friend has been arrested simply for being high. The cop made him do stupid tests and it was clear to him he was fucked up. When he wouldn't admit, he was taken to jail and was administered a piss test.

Once again, fail.
And thus, legalize marijuana you stupid stupid fucking government. MYARGHHHH!

It's stupid to suggest that their shouldn't be a limit. Some people aren't safe to drive after 1 drink, some are still safe 5 drinks later. The only reason a limit is established is for DUI purposes, since you can pretty much get as drunk as you like so long as you don't cause trouble (and aren't driving). You think there should be NO limit, yet you expect cops to be able to do their jobs? Shit, they should make on the spot urine tests possible, because a cop can't realistically make a judgment call on this (unless you want them hauling anyone they expect of being high to the station).

And if you don't want cops on your case, smoke in your house, problem solved. Public drinking is illegal is it not?

[Gone]

Just to add some historical input, hemp was real competition to cotton growers ,so they put pressure on the government to ban the sell and growth of hemp. The government gave in to the cotton growers demand.

I have no idea why they have decided to keep the ban, since cotton isn't even as important as a cash crop as it was back in the 1700-1800s.

[Ives]

Even if your conspiracy theory were true.. wouldn't the taxing of legalized marijuana offset the losses from the money they steal from income taxes? Think of the billions the government makes from cigarettes. Now cigarettes actually have immense negative externalities because of the health problems it causes.

For marijuana, there arn't nearly as much neg externalities.. but you can bet the government would still pretend there was and tax it like shit.

Theres no conspiracy about it. 85-95% of the money from the drug war, I will bet you, probably comes from straight up grass (see: American Drug War, the movie.) More profits than money spent on the war? Either one is possible. Bureaucracy doesn't have to be productive. If bureaucracy were productive, then why the fuck does corn-based ethanol have the popularity it does? The fact of the matter is if you have a big enough government, it isn't made much of an issue, and that's why America is in the shitter right now.

You have no need to preach your 12th grade economics class to me when I already agree with you, but thanks for trying.

[Frizzle]

I still don't get why people question. Cannabis is illegal because it causes long-term mental illnesses which can't be repaired. What country would completly legalise it? None, because of the effects it has, even in Holland the drug's not completly legal.

[Grizzly]

Actually, it depends on the skill of the grower, but homegrown weed is usually top quality. Where do you think the dispensaries in Cali get their inventory?

They're imported from other countries.. homegrown shit sucks. The weed is never processed as efficiently as a large plant can.

It's stupid to suggest that their shouldn't be a limit. Some people aren't safe to drive after 1 drink, some are still safe 5 drinks later. The only reason a limit is established is for DUI purposes, since you can pretty much get as drunk as you like so long as you don't cause trouble (and aren't driving). You think there should be NO limit, yet you expect cops to be able to do their jobs? Shit, they should make on the spot urine tests possible, because a cop can't realistically make a judgment call on this (unless you want them hauling anyone they expect of being high to the station).

And if you don't want cops on your case, smoke in your house, problem solved. Public drinking is illegal is it not?

I meant that there shouldn't be a general limit. I said it should be illegal to drive under the influence.. any limit at that. Cops can easily test you by seeing your heart rate and your eyes.

The problem with smoking in your house is you have fire detectors? I'm more concerned with marijuana being legal so that I can purchase it and drive it home without being arrested though. You clearly don't understand how fucking nerve-wrecking it is having 3 ounces in your trunk and a cop following you.

Just to add some historical input, hemp was real competition to cotton growers ,so they put pressure on the government to ban the sell and growth of hemp. The government gave in to the cotton growers demand.

I have no idea why they have decided to keep the ban, since cotton isn't even as important as a cash crop as it was back in the 1700-1800s.

hemp =/ weed

I still don't get why people question. Cannabis is illegal because it causes long-term mental illnesses which can't be repaired. What country would completly legalise it? None, because of the effects it has, even in Holland the drug's not completly legal.

I can't tell if you're being serious or not lol.
If you are, try to find a reputable source that correlates cannabis use and mental illness.

Theres no conspiracy about it. 85-95% of the money from the drug war, I will bet you, probably comes from straight up grass (see: American Drug War, the movie.) More profits than money spent on the war? Either one is possible. Bureaucracy doesn't have to be productive. If bureaucracy were productive, then why the fuck does corn-based ethanol have the popularity it does? The fact of the matter is if you have a big enough government, it isn't made much of an issue, and that's why America is in the shitter right now.

You have no need to preach your 12th grade economics class to me when I already agree with you, but thanks for trying.

Well if you took your 12th grade economics class, you'd know exactly why there's so much attention revolving around corn-based ethanol.

I'm not trying to preach you anything. I'm just challenging the argument you got from a silly little documentary. And calling bureaucracies inefficient really isn't much of a justification.

Edited by Freak, 22 September 2008 - 07:04 PM.

[philywilly]

Aaaah, the great debate. I'm glad I could say that it doesn't affect me that much, since where I live the laws on this are pretty weak and the consequences are just as weak.

Anyways.. I don't have much to add.. what I wanted to say has already been said. I agree with Alex and Athean.. you guys make great points.

[Grizzly]

Yes he's serious.

http://www.newscient...rengthened.html
The article, which I'm sure you can identify as authoritative and reputable cites people like "Joseph Rey and Christopher Tennant of the University of Sydney, who have written an editorial on the papers in the British Medical Journal"

My opinion is to decriminalise and educate (properly), not legalise.
I'm strongly opposed to those under 23 (accepted as the point when the brain is fully developed) using it at all, although realistically those under 18 should never use it and those over... well it's more of a choice.

Ok true that is a correlation, but it nowhere near proves causation
It might even mean that people who are already at risk of schizophrenia simply have a tendency to smoke marijuana. Or some other variable that schizophrenics and potheads have in common.

"The overall weight of evidence is that occasional use of cannabis has few harmful effects overall."

Furthermore, the correlation they did find meant that if you are already at high risk of schizophrenia, you start smoking every day for 5 years starting form your prepubescent ages, your chance to develop schizophrenia jumps from about 1% to 5%. LOL

And you really have to emphasize the use of the words "possible", "potential", and "unclear". It's all mere speculation, but even if it comes out to be true, the effects are nowhere near as dangerous as the abuse of alcohol or cigarettes. Not to mention cigarettes and alcohol are more addictive than weed.

Imagine if you got drunk everyday starting from 11 for 5 years.
Or if you smoked cigarettes everyday starting from 11 for 5 years.

I think it's safe to say that this is a negligible argument. Especially if you consider the abundant health benefits. Neurogenesis? Blindness? Alzheimers? Cardio vascular diseases?? And keep in mind the correlations and studies done with these benefits are far more developed than the psychosis link.

Edited by Freak, 23 September 2008 - 07:22 AM.

[Frizzle]

Ok true that is a correlation, but it nowhere near proves causation
They said it themselves, people who are already at risk of schizophrenia simply have a tendency to smoke marijuana.
"The overall weight of evidence is that occasional use of cannabis has few harmful effects overall."

So, it means if you are already at high risk of schizophrenia, you start smoking every day for 5 years starting form your prepubescent ages, your chance to develop schizophrenia jumps from about 1% to 5%. LOL

And you really have to emphasize the use of the words "possible", "potential", and "unclear". It's all mere speculation, but even if it comes out to be true, the effects are nowhere near as dangerous as the abuse of alcohol or cigarettes. Not to mention cigarettes and alcohol are more addictive than weed.

I think it's safe to say that this is a negligible argument.

http://www.rcpsych.a...ntalhealth.aspx

Mental health problems

There is growing evidence that people with serious mental illness, including depression and psychosis, are more likely to use cannabis or have used it for long periods of time in the past. Regular use of the drug has appeared to double the risk of developing a psychotic episode or long-term schizophrenia. However, does cannabis cause depression and schizophrenia or do people with these disorders use it as a medication?



Over the past few years, research has strongly suggested that there is a clear link between early cannabis use and later mental health problems in those with a genetic vulnerability - and that there is a particular issue with the use of cannabis by adolescents.

http://news.bbc.co.u...lth/4305783.stm

Smoking cannabis virtually doubles the risk of developing mental illnesses such as schizophrenia, researchers say.

http://news.bbc.co.u...lth/2923647.stm

People who want to smoke cannabis ought to be aware that it has equal effects to cigarettes on the body and worse effects on the mind.

"You've got the fact that regular cannabis smokers develop mental illness.

"There's a fourfold increase in schizophrenia and a fourfold increase in major depression

http://en.wikipedia....cts_of_cannabis

Cannabis use has been assessed by several studies to be correlated with the development of anxiety, psychosis and depression

You cannot deny the fact of the link between mental illness and cannabis use. I've noticed it between a close friend and my own uncles, over the years it does affect your motor skills, communication and functionality.

[SRF]

2% of the population have some form of psychosis, 2% of those who smoke weed have psychosis, this has been shown several times including when the government of england was trying to upgrade it from class c to class b. This would tend to imply that weed isn't the cause merely the trigger which you people seem to get muddled up by. Other triggers include alchohol and sugar.

[Grizzly]

Frizzle, look at the choice of words in that article. It completely twists words around to try and make a point.

On the other hand, recent research has suggested that it can be a major cause of psychotic illnesses in those who are genetically vulnerable.

research has strongly suggested that there is a clear link between early cannabis use and later mental health problems in those with a genetic vulnerability

This is simply saying that studies show that those who are genetically predisposed to develop mental illnesses might simply increase the chance of development of disease.

The rest of the studies talk about adolescents who smoke regularly. So if you smoke everyday starting from 14 4 times a day, you have a 4-5 times higher chance of risking depression. If you look at studies of adolescents who abuse alcohol, the effects are so much more dramatic.

Cannabis use has been assessed by several studies to be correlated with the development of anxiety, psychosis and depression

Most importantly, none of this indicates causation. All they've managed to find is a correlation with people who smoke and people who develop these mental illnesses.. there's no biological evidence whatsoever that says marijuana use can cause schizophrenia. It could simply mean that people who are schizophrenic are more likely to have used marijuana.

Freak, they specifically pointed out the studies ruled out that those with mental illnesses were in fact self-medicating or similar.

It's extraordinarily unethical to do a type of study where you could potentially cause a mental illness on someone who may never have developed symptoms otherwise. So there is only going to correlations rather than causation studies. Correlation studies are not invalid merely because the conditions were observed rather than controlled.

The fact is, is that observational studies can still provide valid results so long as the experimenters are able to identify variables that could have effected their study, for example those people self-medicating early symptoms and rule out those variables.

Another valid point! These studies are not used in control experiments, they can't do such studies with an illegal substance on humans. Which makes the revelations of these studies even weaker. The other variables could not have been isolated. What if these studies involved a few people who abused other drugs? What if these studies by chance picked a handful of people who were mentally ill (how many people were involved per experiment?). Were these studies all self-reported (which could skew data overwhelmingly).

Here's a task for you. Try to find an experiment on animals and marijuana use where the other variables were controlled.

You cannot deny the fact of the link between mental illness and cannabis use. I've noticed it between a close friend and my own uncles, over the years it does affect your motor skills, communication and functionality.

those are short term effects. The reason you might think it's having a long-term effect on those people are because they're such potheads that they've never had a week of sobriety to clear themselves off of the short term effects.

Edited by Freak, 24 September 2008 - 05:06 PM.

[Gone]

hemp =/ weed

"Hemp is another word for the plant Cannabis sativa L. Marijuana comes from this same plant genus -- and so do broccoli and cauliflower. But the strains of hemp used in industrial and consumer products contain only a negligible level of the intoxicating substance delta-9 tetrahydrocannabinol, or THC. Thus, industrial grade hemp is not marijuana."

Hemp may not exactly be weed but there are the links. Weed has many terms and the hemp that I mentioned WAS weed.

Edited by Meirsa, 24 September 2008 - 07:23 PM.

[Frizzle]

I want to know if he really believes that the people I mentioned were born mashed because if he seriously believes I've not seen them sober; then my friend, you have got a problem.

[Grizzly]

I want to know if he really believes that the people I mentioned were born mashed because if he seriously believes I've not seen them sober; then my friend, you have got a problem.

wtf. That's not what I was trying to say. The articles you cited have nothing to do with the people you know. The people you mentioned don't have a mental illnesses. They're not schizophrenic and they don't have psychosis or clinical depression. They're simply suffering from the short-term effects of marijuana which definitely does decrease motor function, memory, and all of that.

Even days after you smoke marijuana, thc will stay in your system for days. You can be sober as a bird and still be feeling burned out. If you smoke on a regular basis, that thc builds up and you're going to suffer the short-term effects days after.

Once you stop smoking for a week or two, you'll be completely fine though. I can personally testify. I went from this summer from smoking 1-6 grams of marijuana daily personally. You could imagine how burnt out I must have appeared to everyone. I did become lazy and apathetic. But once school started, I reduced how much I smoked to not even once a week and now I'm perfectly fine. I'm getting straight A's in school, I don't have any loss of brain functions, and whatnot.

Have you actually been reading the articles or just pressing ctrl+f to find the words you like? Yes they're correlated because you can't get studies where the experiment is controlled. However, like I've said before, just because it's correlated does not mean it's not caused, it just means that variables have to be identified and explained.

And really, why is it you're so happy to encourage your government to take the distinct risk of allowing those with a pre-disposition (which a large number of people have in some form or another) to mental illness. Why are you so keen for people to take the risk?

But that's the thing, Kitsune. They've found a correlation but they have not explained or identified the biological cause.
All they're doing is looking at numbers that show a positive relationship between marijuana usage and development of mental illnesses.

A) That risk is not even defined. It's all mere possibilities of risk.
B) How many people are at risk to serious illnesses from smoking cigarettes? EVERYONE. And if you're on the pill, other medication, have "genetic vulnerability", your risk is multiplied. Yet marijuana simply possess the MERE POSSIBILITY that people who are genetically vulnerable to mental illnesses BIG FUCKING WHOOP. (not to mention they don't even define what "genetically vulnerability" means, great)

Does it make any sense that marijuana use is illegal and cigarette use isn't? I can make the same argument with alcohol.

And what about the health benefits of marijuana that apply to a much larger percent of the population than the people at risk to mental illnesses. Does that not outweigh the minor possibility of risk at all?

AND A LOT OF THIS APPLIES TO REGULAR USE STARTING FROM ADOLESCENT AGE. SOLUTION: MAKE IT ILLEGAL FOR MINORS! NOT ILLEGAL TO THE ENTIRE POPULATION. (THEY DO IT FOR CIGARETTES + ALCOHOL, WHY NOT FOR MARIJUANA?)

Edited by Freak, 25 September 2008 - 10:03 AM.

[pyke]

I meant that there shouldn't be a general limit. I said it should be illegal to drive under the influence.. any limit at that. Cops can easily test you by seeing your heart rate and your eyes.

The problem with smoking in your house is you have fire detectors? I'm more concerned with marijuana being legal so that I can purchase it and drive it home without being arrested though. You clearly don't understand how fucking nerve-wrecking it is having 3 ounces in your trunk and a cop following you.

I've talked to police when I was high, it's pretty damn easy to lie. Heart rate can be explained and eyes are easy to fake.

Why do you need 3 ounces anyway, that's a lot to buy .

My stance on this is neutral really, I don't care either way. Not particularly harmful, people aren't dangerous on it, so they can waste their money how they see fit.

[Grizzly]

----
Also, you guys have to recognize how little a correlation proves.
Say I take all of codex and see how many of us have shot up heroine.
And I find that 5% of codex has done heroine compared to the 2.5% of the general world population.
That doesn't mean using neocodex doubles the likelihood that you'll have done cocaine. There's other variables involved.
To prove causation, they'd have to look at the biological effects of neocodex use on heroine. People have tried to find a biological explanation for marijuana use/mental illness and they've failed.

I've talked to police when I was high, it's pretty damn easy to lie. Heart rate can be explained and eyes are easy to fake.

Why do you need 3 ounces anyway, that's a lot to buy .

My stance on this is neutral really, I don't care either way. Not particularly harmful, people aren't dangerous on it, so they can waste their money how they see fit.

That's true lol, it's very easy to function while high. Though it's really hard to fake it once you're completely burned out afterwards and can't help but have red droopy eyes, half asleep, and are slurring words lol.

(it was for after prom )

I've talked to police when I was high, it's pretty damn easy to lie. Heart rate can be explained and eyes are easy to fake.

Why do you need 3 ounces anyway, that's a lot to buy .

My stance on this is neutral really, I don't care either way. Not particularly harmful, people aren't dangerous on it, so they can waste their money how they see fit.

That's true lol, it's very easy to function while high. Though it's really hard to fake it once you're completely burned out afterwards and can't help but have red droopy eyes, half asleep, and are slurring words lol.

(it was for after prom )

[philywilly]

wtf. That's not what I was trying to say. The articles you cited have nothing to do with the people you know. The people you mentioned don't have a mental illnesses. They're not schizophrenic and they don't have psychosis or clinical depression. They're simply suffering from the short-term effects of marijuana which definitely does decrease motor function, memory, and all of that.

Even days after you smoke marijuana, thc will stay in your system for days. You can be sober as a bird and still be feeling burned out. If you smoke on a regular basis, that thc builds up and you're going to suffer the short-term effects days after.

Once you stop smoking for a week or two, you'll be completely fine though. I can personally testify. I went from this summer from smoking 1-6 grams of marijuana daily personally. You could imagine how burnt out I must have appeared to everyone. I did become lazy and apathetic. But once school started, I reduced how much I smoked to not even once a week and now I'm perfectly fine. I'm getting straight A's in school, I don't have any loss of brain functions, and whatnot.



But that's the thing, Kitsune. They've found a correlation but they have not explained or identified the biological cause.
All they're doing is looking at numbers that show a positive relationship between marijuana usage and development of mental illnesses.

A) That risk is not even defined. It's all mere possibilities of risk.
B) How many people are at risk to serious illnesses from smoking cigarettes? EVERYONE. And if you're on the pill, other medication, have "genetic vulnerability", your risk is multiplied. Yet marijuana simply possess the MERE POSSIBILITY that people who are genetically vulnerable to mental illnesses BIG FUCKING WHOOP. (not to mention they don't even define what "genetically vulnerability" means, great)

Does it make any sense that marijuana use is illegal and cigarette use isn't? I can make the same argument with alcohol.

And what about the health benefits of marijuana that apply to a much larger percent of the population than the people at risk to mental illnesses. Does that not outweigh the minor possibility of risk at all?

AND A LOT OF THIS APPLIES TO REGULAR USE STARTING FROM ADOLESCENT AGE. SOLUTION: MAKE IT ILLEGAL FOR MINORS! NOT ILLEGAL TO THE ENTIRE POPULATION. (THEY DO IT FOR CIGARETTES + ALCOHOL, WHY NOT FOR MARIJUANA?)

I must admit.. at first I had trouble agreeing with you.. but, nah man.. you make great points! I totally agree with all said above.

I personally believe their might be some permanent damages after heavy regular use, but schizo is way extreme.. I know a few people in their 40's who've smoked their whole lives.. one of them was the manager for my band for a summer.. sure the guy likes to rant a lot, but he definitely ain't no schizo.

[Frizzle]

I'm tired of dealing with kids. When you grow up, then you can create a proper debate.

[Grizzly]

I'm tired of dealing with kids. When you grow up, then you can create a proper debate.

a) You're the same age as me.
b) You know nothing about marijuana use except for the twisted biased exaggerations of anti-marijuana users.
c) Cut the arrogant bull shit, I got nominated chair of my model United Nations the first year I joined. What in the bloody hell have you done with your life?

[Frizzle]

a) You're the same age as me.
b) You know nothing about marijuana use except for the twisted biased exaggerations of anti-marijuana users.
c) Cut the arrogant bull shit, I got nominated chair of my model United Nations the first year I joined. What in the bloody hell have you done with your life?

Age has nothing to do with.
Know nothing about it? I smoked it for 6 years straight and have various friends and family who do it regularly and had made my own opinons based on fact; but not the fact I want to smoke it in my own home.
Great, you're a virgin, so what?