66 replies to this topic

[Sweeney]

You had no right to do that to him based on his religious beliefs, it's just as bad as being an arse to someone because they're gay or black.

Wrong.
Race and sexual orientation are not choices, religion is.

If someone is going to post something hateful, then ignoring it is almost as bad as openly supporting it.

[Mr. Hobo]

Yeah... I assumed that people knew my name was Patrick. The only other name I mentioned was Nick, and I addressed him in my quote above. I guess I thought that was clear enough... but hobo voted against me even though his posted opinion was for me You all fail at polls

I thought we were voting for who's side you support
Guess poll questions should be read

[Mishelle]

Nick was totally the bigger hater. If he puts it out there on Facebook for people to comment, then gets pissed whenever someone says something that he doesn't want to hear, he needs to get the fuck off Facebook.

[Sweeney]

I thought we were voting for who's side you support
Guess poll questions should be read

I did exactly the same o.o
*fixes*

[Noitidart]

No doubt, noit, no doubt. You're surprisingly cogent tonight. That's good! I repped you for the bolded section.

Hahaha! Thanks man

*unfriend*

And if it happened in the past: unfriended?

[Andy]

Wrong.
Race and sexual orientation are not choices, religion is.

If someone is going to post something hateful, then ignoring it is almost as bad as openly supporting it.

A lot of religious kids are so deeply brainwashed their faith is practically as strong as any genetic attribute they may have. Besides, being an arse to anyone, whether because of their choices or attributes is still wrong. And "The fear of the LORD [is] the beginning of knowledge: [but] fools despise wisdom and instruction." might be mildly hateful, but ignoring it is nowhere near as bad as openly supporting it. Nobody with a free mind could possibly believe that, infact, most of us disagree with the first part of it. If he said, GAYS WILL BURN IN HELL then a response would be much more appropriate.

And @redlion
It really really isn't remotely your responsibility to reform the religious. You have to respect other peoples choices, regardless of whether they respect yours. Just as you don't appreciate people trying to convert you, they don't like it when people start baggin out their religion.


If people find happiness in religion, who are we to take that away from them?

[Sweeney]

A lot of religious kids are so deeply brainwashed their faith is practically as strong as any genetic attribute they may have. Besides, being an arse to anyone, whether because of their choices or attributes is still wrong. And "The fear of the LORD [is] the beginning of knowledge: [but] fools despise wisdom and instruction." might be mildly hateful, but ignoring it is nowhere near as bad as openly supporting it. Nobody with a free mind could possibly believe that, infact, most of us disagree with the first part of it. If he said, GAYS WILL BURN IN HELL then a response would be much more appropriate.

And how exactly are they supposed to learn that their beliefs are wrong, hateful and bigoted unless people stand up to their shit?
They won't.

Letting the little things slide is no way to treat a situation.

[Andy]

And how exactly are they supposed to learn that their beliefs are wrong, hateful and bigoted unless people stand up to their shit?
They won't.

Many people find comfort in religion, and they'll believe what they want to believe no matter how much people try to tell them that they are wrong. We already know that, so why would we try when we know all it's going to do is piss them off? You're effectively bullying people because they're religious, not because they're bigots, or promote hate.

Letting the little things slide is no way to treat a situation.

Disagree, promotion of a secular society as well as the non-fundamentalist practice of religion for those who do practice religion is imperative to a just society.

[Sweeney]

You're effectively bullying people because they're religious, not because they're bigots, or promote hate.

There's a difference, here?
I don't think so.

You're equivocating.

[Andy]

There's a difference, here?
I don't think so.

You're equivocating.

There is a difference, not all religious people hate gays and masturbators, the Anglican church for example has female and gay clergy. When you provoke them you undoubtedly don't do it by saying "Hey I don't like what you're saying about homosexuals." You'll say "Hey you're religion is a load of bollocks, how can you believe that shit?" In which case you're provoking them based on their religion, and not their supposed gay hating.

[Sweeney]

There is a difference, not all religious people hate gays and masturbators, the Anglican church for example has female and gay clergy. When you provoke them you undoubtedly don't do it by saying "Hey I don't like what you're saying about homosexuals." You'll say "Hey you're religion is a load of bollocks, how can you believe that shit?" In which case you're provoking them based on their religion, and not their supposed gay hating.

Undoubtedly?
Way to make yourself look like a hugely presumptive asshole.

[Andy]

Well sorry if I offended you. But sad fact of life is that's how most people do diss religion, then use the bigotry of the more fundamental fringes of religion as justification.

[Andy]

sorry if you were offended. The sad fact of life is that most bigots use religion to justify their actions. It's a two way, street.

But most religious people aren't bigots, to pigeonhole them is... bigoted?
If people demonstrate bigoted views, you should be attacking their views, not their justification, as hard as it may be.

[Andy]

Oh I thought we moved on from that
Yeah I'll admit that. It was based on past experience that most people who attack the views of the religious do so by attacking their religion, instead of their views directly.

[Andy]

Isn't that essentially the same thing? Ex. I don't agree with communism. I could tell you what principles I disagree upon, but if I disagree upon the ideology in its entirety, why would I not just attack the entire ideology? I mean, it seems like we are splitting hairs here, really...

There's a difference between saying communism is bad and communists are bad people.
Same can be said that calling the religious bad people because they are religious is wrong.
I think this debate has gone off on a tangent

[redlion]

A lot of religious kids are so deeply brainwashed their faith is practically as strong as any genetic attribute they may have. Besides, being an arse to anyone, whether because of their choices or attributes is still wrong. And "The fear of the LORD [is] the beginning of knowledge: [but] fools despise wisdom and instruction." might be mildly hateful, but ignoring it is nowhere near as bad as openly supporting it. Nobody with a free mind could possibly believe that, infact, most of us disagree with the first part of it. If he said, GAYS WILL BURN IN HELL then a response would be much more appropriate.

And @redlion
It really really isn't remotely your responsibility to reform the religious. You have to respect other peoples choices, regardless of whether they respect yours. Just as you don't appreciate people trying to convert you, they don't like it when people start baggin out their religion.


If people find happiness in religion, who are we to take that away from them?

There is a difference between talking about religion and talking about your private sexual life. Religion can be deeply personal. My own religion is unique. (Religion doesn't have to be a belief in God, you know?) But the subject is common conversational stock. Whereas sexual orientation or race relations are not.

"Fear of the LORD" is just as bad as allah-ackbar being said at the end of Al-Qaieda ransom videos. I mean, there are ways to convert people, and there are ways. One way is to extol the virtues of having guiding principles in your life; another way is to scare them shitless. The idea that fear will lead to knowledge, widsom, or instruction is kind of archaic, and as a guiding principle for your life goes, fear isn't a good way to live.

As to reforming the religious.... who said anything about that? I'll respect people's choices when they're intelligent choices, and when they're stupid choices I'll tell them they're stupid. There's no reason to pussyfoot around when people die every day in religious conflict. Don't preach to me about the golden rule. Fuck you man, you really are a condescending prick.

Many people find comfort in religion, and they'll believe what they want to believe no matter how much people try to tell them that they are wrong. We already know that, so why would we try when we know all it's going to do is piss them off? You're effectively bullying people because they're religious, not because they're bigots, or promote hate.

Disagree, promotion of a secular society as well as the non-fundamentalist practice of religion for those who do practice religion is imperative to a just society.

So on the one hand, religion is often brainwashed into the youth, and on the other, it's comforting? You can't have it both ways man, you can either be in favor of denouncing false concepts, or not.

As to the second part, your opinion of what is imperative to a just society tires me.

There is a difference, not all religious people hate gays and masturbators, the Anglican church for example has female and gay clergy. When you provoke them you undoubtedly don't do it by saying "Hey I don't like what you're saying about homosexuals." You'll say "Hey you're religion is a load of bollocks, how can you believe that shit?" In which case you're provoking them based on their religion, and not their supposed gay hating.

I know, the Anglican church is fine and dandy, I'm sure, but this here? this is 'Merica, mkay? Not all religious people hate gays. But all gays are hated by religious people. If you want to put the issue on the horns of the dilemma in every post, I'm glad to do the same, savvy?

Undoubtedly?
Way to make yourself look like a hugely presumptive asshole.

+1
Andy, using undoubtedly when talking about someone else implies that you know them better than they know themselves... it's kind of a dick move.

Well sorry if I offended you. But sad fact of life is that's how most people do diss religion, then use the bigotry of the more fundamental fringes of religion as justification.

Sorry if you offended? Cop out. That's like saying, I wasn't wrong, it was all opinion. Opinion is immunity from being told you're wrong, right? Ass.

Most people? "Most people" is a generalization. You're generalizing. In other words, you're trying to draw a broad conclusion about a group of people from a smaller subset that exhibits the characteristic. Saying "most people" is saying absolutely nothing.

[Lineage]

I love anyone who's really religious because if you so much question their belief, they genuinely wig a shit.

Personally? I live my life according to how I see fit.
I think it's just a big set-up for disappointment if you define your entire purpose through whatever God you believe in.

I have an acquaintance on facebook that i genuinely consider removing every day because I'll skim my newsfeed and she always updates with the most annoying shit.
But I get so much humor out the half of the stupidity that she updates about that she's remained on my list.
To give an idea though, every post is pretty much just like "WOW, GOD IS SO GREAT" or "LIFE IS GOOD, GOD IS WONDERFUL"

Idk, fuck that noise.
And lulz at the fact that the kid defriended/blocked you.
Sorry he apparently couldn't take a joke.

[Andy]

Sheesh, no need to get butthurt

This is a debate

There's nothing wrong with Christians saying "Fear the lord" just as there is nothing wrong with Muslims saying "Allahu Akbar". God fearing is an attitude advocated by most religions basically meaning that they trust that everything their god does is for the greater good, and letting Islamic people say 'God is great' is just as harmless.

The real fear which religion plays on is the universal fear people have of death. Religion is a way people find comfort.

Not all religious people hate gays. But all gays are hated by religious people.

Definitely doesn't give you a right to attack religious people in general.

Fuck you man, you really are a condescending prick.

condescending (adj.) To deal with something or someone in a patronizingly superior manner.

I'll respect people's choices when they're intelligent choices, and when they're stupid choices I'll tell them they're stupid.

I condescend to you because your lack of acceptance of people's personal choices astonishes me. You're as bad as the religious ever were, your actions, no different from the actions of those which resulted in the deaths of millions through religious conflict. No lives would have been lost to religious conflict if religious people accepted other people's religious choices.

Sorry if you offended? Cop out. That's like saying, I wasn't wrong, it was all opinion. Opinion is immunity from being told you're wrong, right? Ass.

I never go into a debate with an intention to offend people. Opinions are just that, opinions. I advocate acceptance of people's religious choices, while you advocate being a dick to people based on their choices.

When you provoke them you undoubtedly

I never intended that as a personal attack on Sweeney, for a start the 'you' was intended as a hypothetical for any reader, I realise the word 'undoubtedly' may have been too strong, and I was wrong to use that word. I apologise to anyone who was offended by my misuse of the word 'undoubtedly'. I do not apologise to anyone who was offended by my opinions.

Edited by Andy, 03 December 2010 - 09:22 PM.

[redlion]

Sheesh, no need to get butthurt

There's nothing wrong with Christians saying "Fear the lord" just as there is nothing wrong with Muslims saying "Allahu Akbar". God fearing is an attitude advocated by most religions basically meaning that they trust that everything their god does is for the greater good, and letting Islamic people say 'God is great' is just as harmless.

The real fear which religion plays on is the universal fear people have of death. Religion is a way people find comfort.

I condescend to you because your lack of acceptance of people's personal choices astonishes me. You're as bad as the religious ever were, your actions, no different from the actions of those which resulted in the deaths of millions through religious conflict. No lives would have been lost to religious conflict if religious people accepted other people's religious choices.

I never go into a debate with an intention to offend people. Opinions are just that, opinions. I advocate acceptance of people's religious choices, while you advocate being a dick to people based on their choices.

I never intended that as a personal attack on Sweeney, for a start the 'you' was intended as a hypothetical for any reader, I realise the word 'undoubtedly' may have been too strong, and I was wrong to use that word. I apologise to anyone who was offended by my misuse of the word 'undoubtedly'. I do not apologise to anyone who was offended by my opinions.

Have I ever said there is something wrong with christians quoting bible passages? Nope. I don't deny them the right to do so. But they should be able to take criticism if they post it publicly. Again, I don't need lectures on what connotations the fear of god has in world religions, nor do I need you to tell me that religions are about explaining death. I broke my eyeteeth on the bible.

"my lack of acceptance of people's personal choices" makes it sound like my comment was a personal insult, directed at him. I insulted the proverb, which is laughable in a secular context, which he chose to take personally. "My actions, no different from the actions of those which resulted in the deaths of millions through religious conflict" This is hyperbole. I seriously doubt my comment killed anyone. I think right there you've nulled any right you had to be taken seriously.

I never go into a debate with the intention to offend people either, but if my words, spoken in truth, do so offend someone, so be it. Fear of offense shouldn't stop anyone from telling it like it is. The truth hurts, but shouldn't he know that people fear christians because of their beliefs? I don't like ignorance any more than I like superstition or condescension or hyperbole.

Definitely doesn't give you a right to attack religious people in general.

Well I'm not attacking any group of people, so you should probably back off the point. At most, one person took offense. You and these other people are the ones bringing in gays and blacks and whatnot. I never started a discussion of any of those things.

By the way,

This is a debate

about the respective actions of myself and Nick, not about religious people in general. I haven't attacked religious people in general in quite some time. Polemics and apologetics tire me.

[luvsmyncis]

 

I have an acquaintance on facebook that i genuinely consider removing every day because I'll skim my newsfeed and she always updates with the most annoying shit.
But I get so much humor out the half of the stupidity that she updates about that she's remained on my list.
To give an idea though, every post is pretty much just like "WOW, GOD IS SO GREAT" or "LIFE IS GOOD, GOD IS WONDERFUL"

Idk, fuck that noise.

You are a hater. Someone posting about how happy they are and that God has improved their life is not the same as someone posting that only fools don't believe. 

Your friend says: I love cherry popsicles. I ate one today and it really cheered me up.

Patrick's friend said: If you do not eat cherry popsicles every day, you are a moron.

See the difference?

[fxckyouguys]

Oh my god, you should hear the arguments me and my grandma get in.
She's a Jehovah's witness, and i'm agnostic/i don't give a fuck.

EVERY FREAKIN TIME I say (or do) something, she has to put her two cents in, which always has to do with Jehovah.

"Damn it, so and so is being an asshole. This is ridiculous." to which she will reply
"You have no friends. Jehovah is the only one you need in your life. Would you like to read the latest Watchtower?"
"Omfg grandma, you KNOW I don't believe in that crap, the answer is the same as it was two minutes ago, HELL NO."
"HOW CAN YOU NOT BELEIVE???? LOOK AT THE TREES!!!!!"


Drives me freaking nuts.
But I still love my grandma, and she knows it.

[luvsmyncis]

 

But I still love my grandma, and she knows it.

I'm going to lol foreva when she unfriends you.

[fxckyouguys]

I'm going to lol foreva when she unfriends you.

SHHHHH. Other than the religion thing, my grandma is hilarious.

I dunno what the fuck she was watching, but I guess someone mentioned the word g-spot.
The topic was about sex, so, she comes to me, and says, "I know you're the expert on these things, what in the world is a g-spot?"
LOL, I freaking love her.

And speaking of unfriending, who else LOVES blocking people on Facebook???? It's like deleting them from the internet!

[redlion]

And speaking of unfriending, who else LOVES blocking people on Facebook???? It's like deleting them from the internet!

[Sweeney]

I thought it might be worth pointing out that Andy is the only one that spoke about generalities in this thread. As far as I can tell, Patrick, Cody and myself were only ever referring to this specific case.