361 replies to this topic

[frostz]

I'll give it to frostz there, colonization & immigration are two different things, & I agree with you, unless you're an American born or naturalized citizen, you shouldn't take a role in government. But in my last post, I'm referring to the immigration of the ancestors of the people that now today say things such as get out of the US if you don't know English. The extremely ignorant person that made this topic, most likely has someone in their ancestry that once was a non-speaking immigrant living in the US. If someone was to tell that to their lets say great-grandfather, that person will be offended so there's no reason why they should be saying it to others. They have to view things from other perspectives.

indeed, many people living in the United States including whites, have some immigrant ancestry. I personally count anyone who came after the establishment of the United States an immigrant. Everyone before that were colonizers.

While it may be unfair, the United States does not exactly have a friendly policy towards immigration, for those who they see as non-white. This whole discussion, is intricately tied with racial issues, even though I don't think anyone had actually brought it into the discussion.

This discrimination against immigrants in the United States included eastern europeans, and "colored" people from other countries. From the standpoint of American culture, it is perfectly acceptable to discriminate against immigrants, particularly against the undesirables such as the Irish (who were white, but were seen as black), and many others as well.

The only acceptable immigrants were from Western European nations such as Britain and these would never face the barriers that others would face in the country.

The only reason why such discrimination is no longer done at least openly is because of the ethnic social movements that have been going on for the past 50-60 years or so.

[JayScorpio]

Every country has its share of immigrants, or colonizers but that in itself is not the issue here unless we are debating what the country was built upon. What matters is that immigrants do spend some effort to learn the language of the country. It would be like going to Mexico or something knowing no Spanish at all and expecting everyone to speak English?

Secondly, It doesn't have to say that english is the official language, just like it doesn't have to say protestanism (although the religion part may be more blurred now) is the official religion. Its just something so obvious that no one even thinks about it, but knows it is true on some fundamental level.

And my standpoint on this is that the immigrants who come should in fact make an effort to learn the language. It's just annoying when you go into a store in the United States, but in one of the "ethnic towns" and you can't buy anything because you have no idea what the store keeper is saying.

They don't have to "get out" they just have to make an effort to assimilate.

I know a lot of sociologists or w/e make a huge deal about how assimilation is killing the culture of these immigrants, but they chose to come here, their children are born into "American" culture, as American citizens, so assimilation is inevitable and something that should be embraced rather than fought against. Even the first generation immigrants shouldn't be exempt from this and should make an effort as well, so that their children the 2nd generation would have an easier time fitting into american society.

1st of all, for it to be deemed official, it has to be a federal law. If not, it is left up to the state, but in here we're talking about the country as a whole. & I understand what you mean, most people speak English, but unless it is the official language, I don't see why it should be forced upon anybody.

2nd of all, I live in a neighborhood where most people are not English speaking. The children of the immigrants, do assimilate into the American culture whether their parents like it or not. They do still retain their culture from whatever country they are from, but in today's society, with education and television and all of that, it is difficult for a child not to assimilate into our culture. As for the adults, they assimilate into the culture in different ways, they act Americanized, but learning another language is not as easy as it seems, even when you live here.

[frostz]

1st of all, for it to be deemed official, it has to be a federal law. If not, it is left up to the state, but in here we're talking about the country as a whole. & I understand what you mean, most people speak English, but unless it is the official language, I don't see why it should be forced upon anybody.

2nd of all, I live in a neighborhood where most people are not English speaking. The children of the immigrants, do assimilate into the American culture whether their parents like it or not. They do still retain their culture from whatever country they are from, but in today's society, with education and television and all of that, it is difficult for a child not to assimilate into our culture. As for the adults, they assimilate into the culture in different ways, they act Americanized, but learning another language is not as easy as it seems, even when you live here.

The OP and many others were talking about how people should make an effort to learn english instead of refusing to do so and keep speaking their own in their tight knit communities.

I agree on the point that these people should make the effort to learn english, and that their children should as well.

I point out that the children would naturally assimilate into American culture. But the first generation immigrants should make an effort to do so as well, for the benefit of their children, those around them, and themselves.

[JayScorpio]

indeed, many people living in the United States including whites, have some immigrant ancestry. I personally count anyone who came after the establishment of the United States an immigrant. Everyone before that were colonizers.

While it may be unfair, the United States does not exactly have a friendly policy towards immigration, for those who they see as non-white. This whole discussion, is intricately tied with racial issues, even though I don't think anyone had actually brought it into the discussion.

This discrimination against immigrants in the United States included eastern europeans, and "colored" people from other countries. From the standpoint of American culture, it is perfectly acceptable to discriminate against immigrants, particularly against the undesirables such as the Irish (who were white, but were seen as black), and many others as well.

The only acceptable immigrants were from Western European nations such as Britain and these would never face the barriers that others would face in the country.

The only reason why such discrimination is no longer done at least openly is because of the ethnic social movements that have been going on for the past 50-60 years or so.

i agree with you there, but the fact of the matter is that racism is a hate crime. Keeping some one out of America because they don't know English (mostly because they are of a different race), in my eyes is a form of racism.

[frostz]

i agree with you there, but the fact of the matter is that racism is a hate crime. Keeping some one out of America because they don't know English (mostly because they are of a different race), in my eyes is a form of racism.

At some point in american history racism was encouraged, and hate was not a crime.

Keeping people who do not know English, or because they were colored was done all the time up till like the 20th century, Note angel island an immigration center in which many people were detained and deported months or years later.

[JayScorpio]

The OP and many others were talking about how people should make an effort to learn english instead of refusing to do so and keep speaking their own in their tight knit communities.

I agree on the point that these people should make the effort to learn english, and that their children should as well.

I point out that the children would naturally assimilate into American culture. But the first generation immigrants should make an effort to do so as well, for the benefit of their children, those around them, and themselves.

the title of the topic says if you don't know english to stay out of america. The original poster stated: Do you guys think that learning fundamental English for Immigrants / fluent English for their children is a mandatory requirement for green card eligibility to the United States?


In a nutshell, I don't think it should be mandatory. It's America, we're free to speak whatever language we feel like, hell we can create our own.

At some point in american history racism was encouraged, and hate was not a crime.

Keeping people who do not know English, or because they were colored was done all the time up till like the 20th century, Note angel island an immigration center in which many people were detained and deported months or years later.

I'm talking about now. Racism is illegal now.

[frostz]

the title of the topic says if you don't know english to stay out of america. The original poster stated: Do you guys think that learning fundamental English for Immigrants / fluent English for their children is a mandatory requirement for green card eligibility to the United States?


In a nutshell, I don't think it should be mandatory. It's America, we're free to speak whatever language we feel like, hell we can create our own.

I'm talking about now. Racism is illegal now.

It may not have to be mandatory, but its still a good idea for the sake of cultural unity, as well as the benefit of the people in question and those around them.
It's also a good thing for personal advancement in a society whose dominant language is English, and making sure that their children grow up in an environment that is primarily English would help them get through school.

English should be learned as the primary language in the home, and any other language as secondary. You could be super fluent in Chinese or something, but that would not help you get through grade school or university..

[lRoyalty]

I used to work in a wholesale club of sorts and a few of the janitors and people who helped restock the shelves and stuff were hispanic and a few of them didnt know a word of english, but I could tell some of them were trying to learn it. Like they would ask how to say something if they messed up a word or something, and we would help them, no biggie.

But then there are people who are completely ignorant to the fact that pretty much everything we do in the United States in in English.

It really pissed me off how people can get drivers license tests in spanish and other languages, when the signs on the road are all in english....

You mind as well just not give them a test at all because they wont know wtf the signs say anyway.

I think that we should make English the official language. Who cares if we step on a few toes in the process. Our politicians have become bitches really, afraid to upset anybody while they sit back and let us get screwed over.

It will be more of a factor in the years to come, but I think we need to do something about it now.

[JayScorpio]

It may not have to be mandatory, but its still a good idea for the sake of cultural unity, as well as the benefit of the people in question and those around them.
It's also a good thing for personal advancement in a society whose dominant language is English, and making sure that their children grow up in an environment that is primarily English would help them get through school.

English should be learned as the primary language in the home, and any other language as secondary. You could be super fluent in Chinese or something, but that would not help you get through grade school or university..

Just by living here and going to grade school here children become fluent in English. In my neighborhood, the immigrants highly encourage their children to go to school and then college, so that they can have a better life. Speaking for their behalf, where I live, when asked, most of them would say that they came here so that their children can have a better life than they did, since there are many opportunities in America (besides all the crap our gov't & economy are going through right now). Everyone has to start out somewhere. The children that are sons/daughters of immigrants assimilate extremely well into this culture, so basically it's only one generation, usually grown adults, that don't speak fluent English. I don't see how that's hurting anybody if their off-springs become Americanized & most of them are born citizens or become citizens. English was not the first language I myself learned, & I don't speak it at home, but I consider it my primary language, just like many other sons & daughters of immigrants that live here.

I used to work in a wholesale club of sorts and a few of the janitors and people who helped restock the shelves and stuff were hispanic and a few of them didnt know a word of english, but I could tell some of them were trying to learn it. Like they would ask how to say something if they messed up a word or something, and we would help them, no biggie.

But then there are people who are completely ignorant to the fact that pretty much everything we do in the United States in in English.

It really pissed me off how people can get drivers license tests in spanish and other languages, when the signs on the road are all in english....

You mind as well just not give them a test at all because they wont know wtf the signs say anyway.

I think that we should make English the official language. Who cares if we step on a few toes in the process. Our politicians have become bitches really, afraid to upset anybody while they sit back and let us get screwed over.

It will be more of a factor in the years to come, but I think we need to do something about it now.

I agree, there are people who are completely ignorant when it comes to learning English, but I'm speaking about the people who try to learn English, but can't speak it fluently. As for the driving test, the roads sings may be in English, but the symbols are symbols, they don't change. A red octagon means stop whether or not you can read it. But there are other tests like the naturalization tests in which you do have to know English to pass, unless you're above a certain age or lived here for a number of years.
As for the politicians part, it doesn't affect you in a big way if somebody doesn't know English.

[lRoyalty]

I agree, there are people who are completely ignorant when it comes to learning English, but I'm speaking about the people who try to learn English, but can't speak it fluently. As for the driving test, the roads sings may be in English, but the symbols are symbols, they don't change. A red octagon means stop whether or not you can read it. But there are other tests like the naturalization tests in which you do have to know English to pass, unless you're above a certain age or lived here for a number of years.
As for the politicians part, it doesn't affect you in a big way if somebody doesn't know English.

Actually, its affects me in a pretty tremendous way if somebody doesn't know English.
If they don't know English, then I cannot talk to them and cant communicate at all with them. They mind as well not matter at all because it is like they are an alien.
Signs are signs, but do they know what yield means, or maybe read the different road signs, maybe have to cut over at the last minute for an exit and almost cause an accident. There is more to driving than just the typical meaning of a sign. That was just a secondary point though.


I just personality have a passion for doing something about the illegal immigrants and all the people coming to our country and not understanding anything about it. English is the dominant language in the world. They would be doing themselves and everybody else a favor if they tried to learn it.

Another example. I live in Maryland, illegal immigrants now get tax breaks on education. How ridiculous is that. I work, pay taxes, they more than likely do not, yet they get my money. Does that sound fair at all... I don't think so.

[frostz]

Actually, its affects me in a pretty tremendous way if somebody doesn't know English.
If they don't know English, then I cannot talk to them and cant communicate at all with them. They mind as well not matter at all because it is like they are an alien.
Signs are signs, but do they know what yield means, or maybe read the different road signs, maybe have to cut over at the last minute for an exit and almost cause an accident. There is more to driving than just the typical meaning of a sign. That was just a secondary point though.


I just personality have a passion for doing something about the illegal immigrants and all the people coming to our country and not understanding anything about it. English is the dominant language in the world. They would be doing themselves and everybody else a favor if they tried to learn it.

Another example. I live in Maryland, illegal immigrants now get tax breaks on education. How ridiculous is that. I work, pay taxes, they more than likely do not, yet they get my money. Does that sound fair at all... I don't think so.

illegal immigrants are an entirely different matter altogether. i don't think most people want them around except as perhaps day laborers, whether they speak english or not...

[thorgal]

the language problem can be applied in every country where there's a loose immigrant policy.
So if you don't like strangers in your neighboorhoud go live in Switzerland or Norwege

[Breakeven]

I actually agree with this topic (the title). It's like "Learn English or get out of the country" -- English does very well seem to be the official mother tongue here, although leading up to that is Spanish.
The schools actually would do better if they didn't have to spend so much on other language classes, so I do agree that not learning English would be a problem. If not their native tongue, then their second
language or something. ESPECIALLY if you have a kid.

[JayScorpio]

Actually, its affects me in a pretty tremendous way if somebody doesn't know English.
If they don't know English, then I cannot talk to them and cant communicate at all with them. They mind as well not matter at all because it is like they are an alien.
Signs are signs, but do they know what yield means, or maybe read the different road signs, maybe have to cut over at the last minute for an exit and almost cause an accident. There is more to driving than just the typical meaning of a sign. That was just a secondary point though.


I just personality have a passion for doing something about the illegal immigrants and all the people coming to our country and not understanding anything about it. English is the dominant language in the world. They would be doing themselves and everybody else a favor if they tried to learn it.

Another example. I live in Maryland, illegal immigrants now get tax breaks on education. How ridiculous is that. I work, pay taxes, they more than likely do not, yet they get my money. Does that sound fair at all... I don't think so.

You say that like you have a need to speak to every person you meet on the street.
& Yeah, they do know what yield means... most countries have rules of the road, not just us.
& I'm also sure that they have to know what that is exactly when applying for a license.
& I wasn't talking about illegal immigrants, that's a another debate.

[frostz]

You say that like you have a need to speak to every person you meet on the street.
& Yeah, they do know what yield means... most countries have rules of the road, not just us.
& I'm also sure that they have to know what that is exactly when applying for a license.
& I wasn't talking about illegal immigrants, that's a another debate.

yea...i don't think driving, and that sort of thing is an issue, unless they are driving illegally, they should know what the signs mean. Thats what driving class and the actual licensing test is for. And like you say, theres no need to talk to them, unless they are in the same working environment as you or something like that.

[Jake]

In a nutshell, I don't think it should be mandatory. It's America, we're free to speak whatever language we feel like, hell we can create our own.

And that is where I get pissed off. I cant speak for America here but it pretty much goes the same in Canada and like I have said several times, it should not be this way because we sure as hell cant speak whatever language we want in every other country. They leave their war covered countries to expect a free life of THEIR culture over here. Fuck that shit. Their cultures are the reasons why their countries are fucked up, that shit shouldn't be allowed here.

[Elindoril]

And that is where I get pissed off. I cant speak for America here but it pretty much goes the same in Canada and like I have said several times, it should not be this way because we sure as hell cant speak whatever language we want in every other country. They leave their war covered countries to expect a free life of THEIR culture over here. Fuck that shit. Their cultures are the reasons why their countries are fucked up, that shit shouldn't be allowed here.

So basically, live like this:

Spoiler

But though, I do agree, I'll only tolerate your own culture to a certain extent, I don't mind listening to other languages, but don't expect me to ever be forced to use it to communicate back to you in Canada.

Even you, Frenchies.

[Jake]

So basically, live like this:

Spoiler

But though, I do agree, I'll only tolerate your own culture to a certain extent, I don't mind listening to other languages, but don't expect me to ever be forced to use it to communicate back to you in Canada.

Even you, Frenchies.

Well I see your point, and it's a good one but at the same time perhaps that is the way it should be.

[JayScorpio]

And that is where I get pissed off. I cant speak for America here but it pretty much goes the same in Canada and like I have said several times, it should not be this way because we sure as hell cant speak whatever language we want in every other country. They leave their war covered countries to expect a free life of THEIR culture over here. Fuck that shit. Their cultures are the reasons why their countries are fucked up, that shit shouldn't be allowed here.

The thing is that every one is different, especially in the US. No one is going to force anyone's own culture on somebody else. You either grow into the other culture or you dont.

[Jake]

The thing is that every one is different, especially in the US. No one is going to force anyone's own culture on somebody else. You either grow into the other culture or you dont.

Yes we realise this, that is why it SHOULD be changed.

[MisterDerp]

Actually, its affects me in a pretty tremendous way if somebody doesn't know English.
If they don't know English, then I cannot talk to them and cant communicate at all with them. They mind as well not matter at all because it is like they are an alien.
Signs are signs, but do they know what yield means, or maybe read the different road signs, maybe have to cut over at the last minute for an exit and almost cause an accident. There is more to driving than just the typical meaning of a sign. That was just a secondary point though.


I just personality have a passion for doing something about the illegal immigrants and all the people coming to our country and not understanding anything about it. English is the dominant language in the world. They would be doing themselves and everybody else a favor if they tried to learn it.

Another example. I live in Maryland, illegal immigrants now get tax breaks on education. How ridiculous is that. I work, pay taxes, they more than likely do not, yet they get my money. Does that sound fair at all... I don't think so.

I can't imagine any state passing legislation or whatever in a way that specifically benefits illegal immigrants; is there more to this than you're telling everyone? Like, people who fall below a certain yearly income get tax breaks on education?

Edited by MisterDerp, 29 May 2011 - 12:41 PM.

[Juturna]

You know what? This has probably been said but I'm going to say it again:
A lot of immigrants when America first came into being DID NOT SPEAK ENGLISH. There were many towns that spoke German, French, and various other languages. Eventually though, their children and grandchildren learned English.

Don't hate on them. Your ancestors had to do the same thing. They will learn English eventually. It's invetiable.

As for if they should have to learn English now: NO. As long as they have a general idea of English (such as common words, and knowing how to say I do not speak english is enough) it's completely fine. I personally find no problem with it.

And seriously. I rather like the diversity in areas like that. Living in an area where all you have are country hicks, I pretty much love seeing areas with people with different cultures. So like, can we switch where we live? Just sayin'

That is also McDonald's fault for hiring people that doesn't know to speak the required languaje.
It's the obligation of those places to hire the required kind of people for a job.

This. ^

[Cyo]

And seriously. I rather like the diversity in areas like that. Living in an area where all you have are country hicks, I pretty much love seeing areas with people with different cultures. So like, can we switch where we live? Just sayin'

Right, because if your area isn't as diverse as let's say NY then your area just has to be populated only by country hicks?

[Jake]

Don't hate on them. Your ancestors had to do the same thing. They will learn English eventually. It's invetiable.

Good for them, the only difference is 300 years ago you didn't need to speak to a single soul other than your family. That doesn't work in this days in age.

Also that comment about McDonalds is fucking stupid and you know it. If the corporation is only hiring white people they are going to be getting lawsuits and shit.

[Juturna]

Right, because if your area isn't as diverse as let's say NY then your area just has to be populated only by country hicks?

I live in Rural Minnesota, yes, the majority of people here are country hicks. not everybody, but the majority of people. The point I was making is there isn't very much diversity at all where I live.

Good for them, the only difference is 300 years ago you didn't need to speak to a single soul other than your family. That doesn't work in this days in age.

... :| Only to your family? I'm not just talking rural here. The big cities back in the day had a lot of people with different languages and their children had to learn english eventually.

Also that comment about McDonalds is fucking stupid and you know it. If the corporation is only hiring white people they are going to be getting lawsuits and shit.

white =/= ability to speak english