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I still don't understand this "other" thing...


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#1 leptooners

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Posted 27 March 2011 - 07:46 AM

I know what "other" is, and so does everyone else. It means money. USD. Just because you allow RMT on the forum, doesn't mean you'll be shut down by Viacom. If they wanted to shut you down for RMT, they would have already. Saying "other" instead of USD is, in my opinion, incredibly pointless, counterintuitive, and counterproductive. All the explainations I've heard for the reasoning behind the use of the word "other" in place of USD just don't make sense. If you allow real money trading, allow it. If you don't, forbid it. There's no middle ground. I guarantee that Viacom knows what "other" is.

Now let me explain how I know this forum won't be shut down, and why no other RMT related forum has ever been shut down by any game's owner or parent company. Because the owner of this forum is not the person selling the virtual currency for real money, the members of the forum are. Therefore, this forum's host would have no legal ground to shut down the website. The toolmaker cannot be blamed for what is done with the tools he produces. It's the same concept with warez forums and torrents. The reason they've won so many lawsuits is because the people that are actually giving these files away are not the people who own the websites they're posting these files on.

Yes, I know the rule was changed because of my suggestion in the past, but putting it in bold simply isn't good enough. Either deny it or allow it. Grey = black, in this case.

Edited by leptooners, 27 March 2011 - 08:00 AM.


#2 Scot

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Posted 27 March 2011 - 07:50 AM

Plausible deniability.


/thread

#3 Waser Lave

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Posted 27 March 2011 - 07:53 AM

We don't allow trading for USD on the boards and nobody trades for USD on the boards without getting warned, what's there to not understand?

#4 leptooners

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Posted 27 March 2011 - 08:01 AM

We don't allow trading for USD on the boards and nobody trades for USD on the boards without getting warned, what's there to not understand?


On the boards. You do allow it in PMs. Grey = black.

#5 Waser Lave

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Posted 27 March 2011 - 08:04 AM

You do allow it in PMs.


Do we? We don't tend to read the PMs of our users so we don't know what people choose to discuss in those.

#6 leptooners

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Posted 27 March 2011 - 08:13 AM

Do we? We don't tend to read the PMs of our users so we don't know what people choose to discuss in those.


Noitidart put the word "boards" in bold because he wanted to emphasize that you must take RMT transactions to PMs and cannot publicly sell (or buy) for USD on the open forum for all to see. But, that is the same exact thing as letting people post openly. They're still using this site to sell their Neopoints for real money, regardless of how that transaction occurs. It's like renaming a copyrighted video file so it can be uploaded to rapidshare without being detected. If it's eventually found to be copyrighted, it's still removed from rapidshare no matter what its name is.

On a side note, I should point out that USD isn't the only currency. Maybe that should be changed to "real money", or something along those lines.

Edited by leptooners, 27 March 2011 - 08:25 AM.


#7 Waser Lave

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Posted 27 March 2011 - 08:41 AM

Noitidart put the word "boards" in bold because he wanted to emphasize that you must take RMT transactions to PMs and cannot publicly sell (or buy) for USD on the open forum for all to see. But, that is the same exact thing as letting people post openly. They're still using this site to sell their Neopoints for real money, regardless of how that transaction occurs. It's like renaming a copyrighted video file so it can be uploaded to rapidshare without being detected. If it's eventually found to be copyrighted, it's still removed from rapidshare no matter what its name is.

On a side note, I should point out that USD isn't the only currency. Maybe that should be changed to "real money", or something along those lines.


If we're informed of specific instances of trademark infringement taking place on our servers we would deal with them promptly, we don't have to resources to check every single private message sent though so we don't have knowledge of any infringing material (which is usually a requirement in related laws like DMCA, OCILLA etc in order to establish liability). In your example we would take the role of Rapidshare which doesn't go around checking every single upload made and then removing them, they await notification from the relevant trademark/copyright holders before acting.

And yeah I've already told the admins to update the rules ages ago, they're a bit busy right now though.

#8 leptooners

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Posted 27 March 2011 - 09:02 AM

If we're informed of specific instances of trademark infringement taking place on our servers we would deal with them promptly, we don't have to resources to check every single private message sent though so we don't have knowledge of any infringing material (which is usually a requirement in related laws like DMCA, OCILLA etc in order to establish liability). In your example we would take the role of Rapidshare which doesn't go around checking every single upload made and then removing them, they await notification from the relevant trademark/copyright holders before acting.

And yeah I've already told the admins to update the rules ages ago, they're a bit busy right now though.


That's the grey area I was referring to. Again, grey = black in this case. Allowing transactions for "other" is essentially allowing transactions for real money. It's simply a matter of interpretation. Because I say colored instead of nigger doesn't change the fact that I'm talking about a person of African origin, even though colored could mean many things.

In the case of rapidshare, they only remove files that are reported to be infringing of a copyright. If the file is never reported, it's never deleted. EDIT: I think the rapidshare analagy is flawed actually. You don't sell the Neopoints yourself (or "host" the "files" on your own server), you simply provide a method for other people to sell their Neopoints. So you would be more like The Pirate Bay than rapidshare, and there's all sorts of copyrighted stuff on The Pirate Bay for the aforementioned reason.

This is what you should say.
"All real money transactions are expressly forbidden in any context. The use of the word "other" to implicate a real money transaction is also forbidden." At least, that's what I would say.

Btw, when I say "you", I mean the owner of this forum.

Edited by leptooners, 27 March 2011 - 09:39 AM.


#9 ShadowLink64

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Posted 27 March 2011 - 10:18 AM

I know what "other" is, and so does everyone else. It means money. USD. Just because you allow RMT on the forum, doesn't mean you'll be shut down by Viacom. If they wanted to shut you down for RMT, they would have already. Saying "other" instead of USD is, in my opinion, incredibly pointless, counterintuitive, and counterproductive. All the explainations I've heard for the reasoning behind the use of the word "other" in place of USD just don't make sense. If you allow real money trading, allow it. If you don't, forbid it. There's no middle ground. I guarantee that Viacom knows what "other" is.

Now let me explain how I know this forum won't be shut down, and why no other RMT related forum has ever been shut down by any game's owner or parent company. Because the owner of this forum is not the person selling the virtual currency for real money, the members of the forum are. Therefore, this forum's host would have no legal ground to shut down the website. The toolmaker cannot be blamed for what is done with the tools he produces. It's the same concept with warez forums and torrents. The reason they've won so many lawsuits is because the people that are actually giving these files away are not the people who own the websites they're posting these files on.

Yes, I know the rule was changed because of my suggestion in the past, but putting it in bold simply isn't good enough. Either deny it or allow it. Grey = black, in this case.


Therefore, this forum's host would have no legal ground to shut down the website.

Of course they do. They own the web space, and in the TOS we agreed to, they can shut us down for whatever reason they wish. It has happened in the past where a mere e-mail from the legal department (whether baseless or not) have put sites offline. When this happens, it takes a lot of work to move to another host and get started again.

The use of the word "other" to implicate a real money transaction is also forbidden."

This will be ineffective in the long term, unless we extend this rule to any placeholder word. I don't see what's so special about "other", other than people are supposedly using that word to implicate real money transactions.

If you're going to give us the black and white choice of freely accepting real money transactions, or denying them, then we would probably choose to close down the Trading Post. It's not your ass on the line, it is ours for facilitating violations of Neopets' TOS, and I'm not going to risk having our host shut us down just for people to trade things on a cheating site. The Trading Post isn't even the main part of the site, nor do we want it to be.

#10 Junsu

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Posted 27 March 2011 - 10:18 AM

You said that there is something wrong, but that NC cannot be held liable.
Ok

Thanks for telling? O_o
Do you want a trophy?

Edited by Junsu, 27 March 2011 - 10:18 AM.



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