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Debate: Using "the power of prayer" to solve world issues?


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#26 Scot

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Posted 07 June 2011 - 12:42 PM

Is Texas as crazzzzy religious as I've heard??


I live about 20 minutes from Reliant Stadium where they're planning to hold this and yes but it is also concentrated around the rural areas. If you want an idea of what areas are heavily influenced by religious extremists, look at this map showing what regions vote by what political party, because religious extremists vote Republican almost exclusively. The major cities with Universities and the areas bordering Mexico are predominantly democratic, while the red areas are the ones responsible for voting in idiots who want to pray for rain and appoint creationists to the board of education.

Spoiler


#27 Tetiel

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Posted 07 June 2011 - 12:43 PM

I see what you're saying. And you're right about atheists. The person who posted the link originally on facebook is CRAZY obsessed with his atheism.... and he really just says whatever the book hes reading says and hates on ANYONE who is religious. It is sad.

Yeah, I've met quite a few people like your friend, especially in music forums. What would be hilarious is if he hated on people for doing the same exact thing that's he's doing. Hypocrisy is always great entertainment no matter what side you're on.

#28 Joanna

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Posted 07 June 2011 - 12:46 PM

I live about 20 minutes from Reliant Stadium where they're planning to hold this and yes but it is also concentrated around the rural areas. If you want an idea of what areas are heavily influenced by religious extremists, look at this map showing what regions vote by what political party, because religious extremists vote Republican almost exclusively. The major cities with Universities and the areas bordering Mexico are predominantly democratic, while the red areas are the ones responsible for voting in idiots who want to pray for rain and appoint creationists to the board of education.

Spoiler


Wow... It is like I thought. Its like when I go visit my family in TN.... they play christian music at the grocery store. And even in Nashville christian "propaganda" (I know thats the wrong word) is EVERYWHERE. It surprises me everytime I go there. Especially living in Philly. Of course there are churches but the only thing on the radio is mainstream rap and hip-hop.

Yeah, I've met quite a few people like your friend, especially in music forums. What would be hilarious is if he hated on people for doing the same exact thing that's he's doing. Hypocrisy is always great entertainment no matter what side you're on.


Ohhh he does. You can't even talk to this guy really. And he is my own brother. Anyone who is not EXACTLY like him is an idiot... or trash. Which I have been called both.

#29 Tetiel

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Posted 07 June 2011 - 12:48 PM

and appoint creationists to the board of education.

Wow. Just wow. He's officially on my shitlist. I support a lot of Christian beliefs, but they only belong in one place, a church, not a freaking state institution. This is just depressing.

Ohhh he does. You can't even talk to this guy really. And he is my own brother. Anyone who is not EXACTLY like him is an idiot... or trash. Which I have been called both.

You have my complete sympathies. I thought having a "trendwhore sheep" roommate for a year was bad. I'm pretty sure I would have killed him by now if I had to live with him my entire life.

#30 iargue

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Posted 07 June 2011 - 03:39 PM

All people are inherently sheep. There is always something that you will follow blindly, rather its religious beliefs, or political beliefs and even scientific belief. We will never ever know everything and thus we will all be sheep to theories for the rest of our lives.

There are those that go beyond being a sheep, and condemn others for following something else.

#31 luvsmyncis

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Posted 07 June 2011 - 04:10 PM

All people are inherently sheep. There is always something that you will follow blindly, rather its religious beliefs, or political beliefs and even scientific belief.

I'm big enough to admit I am a sheep. Let us join hands and honor the mighty one...

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Yeah. Texans are absurd.
Rick Perry is a joke. Twice as dumb as W, but not half as hilarious.

Obviously, the time would be better spent having a meeting to discuss solutions to solve these world issues, instead of throwing our hands up and saying, "Oh, we're' powerless, sweet Jesus oh Lord hear me!"

#32 WharfRat

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Posted 07 June 2011 - 06:42 PM

Scot, did you not see that the pray for rain totally worked? We had wildfires throughout my area for two days and Perry issued the pray for rain on a friday. Only two hours later, it started raining in my area for the first time all month. Obviously, our area prayed harder than the rest of texas that was scorched. :p

Here's the thing about Gov. Perry. I don't object to these events like pray for rain. People have no fucking control over the rain and when your world is on fire and your entire livelihood is ablaze and the federal government is refusing to approve your request for federal aid for a weather emergency... people get crazy. People in texas have lots of guns... So let's do the math... Crazy people with lots of guns + nothing left to live for + no means to provide for their family + outrage with their government for not helping them = ?!?!?!?!? (Major problems)

So what Gov. Perry is really doing in the pray for rain incident is empathizing with those people and redirecting them to the only "person" in control of rain. "God". This takes the heat off of him and takes the anger out of the people who may be robbing or killing others to survive otherwise. I think a lot of people internalize these external issues and believe as if their personal or collective sins are the reason behind the fires or the drought... and that only if they pray hard enough, ask for forgiveness, and be better people, then everything will go back to normal.

I think most (Read: At least a lot of...) people out here know damned well and good that praying for rain isn't going to change anything. But when you have nothing else you can do and no one else you can blame, you start to do desperate things.

As for Gov. Perry himself? I think he's a very bright and savvy politician. He has been governor for 10 years now and holds his constituency pretty well. (Though I think this 4 year term will probably be his last.) He knows his constituency is largely religious and that to remain outside of the blame, he needs to redirect them to their religion to cope. Does he really believe it himself? I think he does believe that prayer may help unite people to solve the problem... but I am without a doubt that he understands what he is doing politically and is playing the game strategically very well.

As to churches/religion in texas? I live in a town of about 100,000 people. There is seriously a church on every other street corner. (Exaggeration, but there are at least 100 churches in my town.) The people in my town are very religious and conservative people... but they don't really push their religion on you around here. Most people won't ask you about your religion (they will assume you are christian. (unless you are foreign looking... then you must be one of them there muzzzz-lambs.) More rural areas do become more religious driven... urban areas are pretty secular entirely.

I personally dislike Gov. Perry and did not vote for him in the last election. The state is still doing better than nearly all of the other states in the U.S., but I do think that at times he crosses the line to appeal to the christian base that he needs.

Oh yeah... the point of the thread. The power of prayer is a real thing. I'm not saying if you pray for it to rain that it will... because it won't. (I'm going to put this in drug terms because this is simply how my brain interprets the situation and I think it aptly illustrates my point.) Prayer (with belief) is like taking a placebo for an illness. The placebo effect has been well documented... The power of the human mind to control it's own outcome is amazing. I think that prayer with the absolute belief that it will work, is in fact helpful in many cases. I know that at cancer treatment hospitals, they really push for religion and positive attitudes because the people who believe that they will be cured typically do much better than the patients without it. Do I think there is an omnipotent being micromanaging all of our lives? No. I'd imagine an omnipotent being would have better things to do than meddle in the lives of humans. But I do think that there is power behind prayer. (Even if it is just the placebo effect.)

Anyways, sort of a long post... but believe it or not, I actually had a lot more to say and cut myself short. :p

Sending loads of love from Texas. ;)
Cody

P.s. I wish we had George W. Bush back as governor... He did such a great job here in texas... then he went on to be president and the United States and Texas alike got the short end of the stick. :(

#33 Joanna

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Posted 07 June 2011 - 07:21 PM

Oh yeah... the point of the thread. The power of prayer is a real thing. I'm not saying if you pray for it to rain that it will... because it won't. (I'm going to put this in drug terms because this is simply how my brain interprets the situation and I think it aptly illustrates my point.) Prayer (with belief) is like taking a placebo for an illness. The placebo effect has been well documented... The power of the human mind to control it's own outcome is amazing. I think that prayer with the absolute belief that it will work, is in fact helpful in many cases. I know that at cancer treatment hospitals, they really push for religion and positive attitudes because the people who believe that they will be cured typically do much better than the patients without it. Do I think there is an omnipotent being micromanaging all of our lives? No. I'd imagine an omnipotent being would have better things to do than meddle in the lives of humans. But I do think that there is power behind prayer. (Even if it is just the placebo effect.)

Anyways, sort of a long post... but believe it or not, I actually had a lot more to say and cut myself short. :p

Sending loads of love from Texas. ;)
Cody

P.s. I wish we had George W. Bush back as governor... He did such a great job here in texas... then he went on to be president and the United States and Texas alike got the short end of the stick. :(


Lol... lots about Governor Perry.... but on to the point.
I never thought of it like the placebo effect. That is a really interesting way to think about it for sure. Give you a new perspective on the whole thing.

#34 Sweeney

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Posted 07 June 2011 - 10:40 PM

All people are inherently sheep. There is always something that you will follow blindly, rather its religious beliefs, or political beliefs and even scientific belief. We will never ever know everything and thus we will all be sheep to theories for the rest of our lives.

Speak for yourself.

Anything I don't know about, I'm ambivalent about. Anything that requires me to make a decision, or hold a firm opinion, I educate myself about.
I don't follow anything blindly.

#35 ZKK

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Posted 07 June 2011 - 11:04 PM

As god himself said, "I help those who help themselves" So everyone should have the same view on it. People need to actually do something to change the world, and not just hope someone else will.

Actually apparently God never said that quote/phrase, which can be traced back to non-biblical origins and actually goes against the normal teachings of the Bible.

#36 Tetiel

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Posted 07 June 2011 - 11:30 PM

Actually apparently God never said that quote/phrase, which can be traced back to non-biblical origins and actually goes against the normal teachings of the Bible.

Indeed. The bible actually says that "The greedy stir up conflict, but those who trust in the Lord will prosper. 26 Those who trust in themselves are fools, but those who walk in wisdom are kept safe." Proverbs 28 25-26 NIV. I interpret that as the bible telling you to trust only in God. Later on in the passage it talks about helping others, not yourself and you will be safe.

The original man who said that quote, iargue, was Ben Franklin, a well known Deist much like a lot of philosophers at the time. They believe in a God that created the universe, but not in one that actually interferes with mortal affairs. That is not what the bible teaches (lol depending on the passage and the manipulation by the person reading it). Don't mix the two spiritualities up, though they come from the same roots. I know it can be pretty confusing.

#37 Joanna

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Posted 08 June 2011 - 12:16 AM

Actually apparently God never said that quote/phrase, which can be traced back to non-biblical origins and actually goes against the normal teachings of the Bible.



Shit- lol. I remember back when my parents used to make me go to church that they did a whole sermon about that quote... which apparently God didn't say. /facepalm.



#38 Tetiel

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Posted 08 June 2011 - 12:42 AM

Shit- lol. I remember back when my parents used to make me go to church that they did a whole sermon about that quote... which apparently God didn't say. /facepalm.

I concur with your /facepalm.

Not that I don't think it's a good lesson to teach people. Self-reliance is never a bad thing.

#39 luvsmyncis

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Posted 08 June 2011 - 05:55 AM

People have no fucking control over the rain and when your world is on fire and your entire livelihood is ablaze and the federal government is refusing to approve your request for federal aid for a weather emergency... people get crazy.
P.s. I wish we had George W. Bush back as governor... He did such a great job here in texas... then he went on to be president and the United States and Texas alike got the short end of the stick. :(


It's Perry who screws us all. He constantly refuses federal aid. He only asked for funds AFTER the fired became a big deal. He did the same thing with Hurricane Ike. He goes on the news, with that strange hair and that sleazy smile of his, and talks all proudly about how us here in Texas, we don't need no help from outsiders. We are self sufficient. We don't need no handouts from Obama. Then things get really bad and he starts bitching, "Where's FEMA? Why ain't they helping us?" So now by praying, he will undo the idiotic mistakes he's made? I don't think so.

And just LOL at the "p.s.". It was the US that got the short end of the stick, imo.

#40 Drakonid

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Posted 08 June 2011 - 08:25 AM

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#41 Kat

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Posted 08 June 2011 - 09:03 AM

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I live in that itty bitty slighty blue section on the right side of Houston. :p
It's slightly blue I think because for some odd reason we have a fuck ton of cultural diversity.
We even have ghettos and projects, then right down the road there's a Muslim temple.
Then two blocks down there's a Buddhist temple and a Catholic church on the same street.
It's pretty neat. :p

#42 WharfRat

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Posted 08 June 2011 - 03:56 PM

It's Perry who screws us all. He constantly refuses federal aid. He only asked for funds AFTER the fired became a big deal. He did the same thing with Hurricane Ike. He goes on the news, with that strange hair and that sleazy smile of his, and talks all proudly about how us here in Texas, we don't need no help from outsiders. We are self sufficient. We don't need no handouts from Obama. Then things get really bad and he starts bitching, "Where's FEMA? Why ain't they helping us?" So now by praying, he will undo the idiotic mistakes he's made? I don't think so.

And just LOL at the "p.s.". It was the US that got the short end of the stick, imo.

yeah.. like I said, he knows he fucked up but he is appealing to religious people to avert their attention from his refusal of all federal aid and placing the blame and the burden of help onto the citizens to be better people and to pray so that the fires can stop. It's a brilliant ploy politically... but it sucks for the rest of us who don't quite buy into the whole sham. :p

#43 Sweeney

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Posted 11 June 2011 - 08:53 AM

Speak for yourself.

Anything I don't know about, I'm ambivalent about. Anything that requires me to make a decision, or hold a firm opinion, I educate myself about.
I don't follow anything blindly.

I'm disappointed that no one decided to back iargue up on this one, nor did he come back to do it himself.

#44 Joanna

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Posted 11 June 2011 - 10:13 AM

I'm disappointed that no one decided to back iargue up on this one, nor did he come back to do it himself.


Lol this thread just sort of died. :-/

#45 Volition

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Posted 11 June 2011 - 11:41 AM

I hope that anyone who believes in the 'power of prayer' can stop relying on any and all scientific achievements, stuff like penicillin and electricity. Prayer is for those too lazy to actively change the world for the better, the lazy bastards who want someone else to do their work for them. To all the overly religious people: you are the scum of the earth, maybe you should get your ass raptured up so the world can be a better place. Yes, I'm a staunch atheist and I hate any and all religion.

#46 luvsmyncis

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Posted 11 June 2011 - 01:40 PM

To all the overly religious people: you are the scum of the earth, maybe you should get your ass raptured up so the world can be a better place. Yes, I'm a staunch atheist and I hate any and all religion.


Your ignorance and hatred puts you right on par with the religious zealots. Congrats.

#47 Volition

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Posted 11 June 2011 - 03:39 PM

Your ignorance and hatred puts you right on par with the religious zealots. Congrats.


Well I have better justification for my beliefs (which i've probably stated in some other thread regarding religion) and as long as I'm on the secular end of the spectrum I'll be fine :)

#48 Tetiel

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Posted 11 June 2011 - 06:42 PM

Well I have better justification for my beliefs (which i've probably stated in some other thread regarding religion) and as long as I'm on the secular end of the spectrum I'll be fine :)

And actively discriminating against a gigantic chunk of the world including a couple of admins on this site is a good thing because...? There is no justification for that type of statement. You might be fine with it, but I would be cautious who you express that level of hatred around.

#49 Volition

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Posted 11 June 2011 - 06:45 PM

And actively discriminating against a gigantic chunk of the world including a couple of admins on this site is a good thing because...? There is no justification for that type of statement. You might be fine with it, but I would be cautious who you express that level of hatred around.


I'm just voicing my beliefs, I believe I do have that right.

#50 Tetiel

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Posted 11 June 2011 - 07:01 PM

I'm just voicing my beliefs, I believe I do have that right.

And I therefore have the right to voice my disgust with your calling religious people the scum of the earth.


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