118 replies to this topic

[Sweeney]

Yes, I really think with today's technology there really is no need for it. If they put only half the effort into testing medicine etc. as they put into creating new iPhones, we wouldn't need animal testing.

So you think it's wrong now, but it wasn't before?
Interesting. I wonder where you would draw the threshold between animal testing against the reduction in human suffering.
Of course, you're not going to reply, so we'll be forever in the dark with respect to your moral equivocation.

If you disagree that is fine by me. I'm not very good at arguing anyways. We all have free will and our own opinions. I just wanted to share my feelings. You know what? If it makes you feel better I'll even say: " You win". But I will still stick by my own feelings, that it is wrong indeed with today's technology to test animals.

You're standing by your opinion even though you don't feel like you can support it against opposition? That's not a terribly strongly held conviction you have there.

I won't be posting anymore proof. I'll just say that when I worked in Bangladesh I was part of an animal protection group and we were shown monkeys in labs, caged and then of course every night I could see monkeys outside my window swinging from tree to tree. And it only took you enough to look into their eyes to see the difference. The monkeys in the cage stared blankly ahead, whereas the monkeys in the wild seemed full of life and really happy.

Did you think that was "one last piece of evidence"? Because it wasn't. It was subjective, personal, unverifiable and emotive. All the hallmarks of a last ditch appeal to emotion, not an argument.

Not all opinions are equal. Yours is ridiculous.

[dreller120]

Well for animals that have been heavily domesticated like cats and dogs, they wouldn't stand much of a chance in the wild. However, I'm against keeping animals in zoos. I mean, when we visit a zoo we are only seeing the animal in an artificial environment, whereas it is possible to enjoy watching the animals in their natural environment on the TV. Even though a number of animals have been kept and bred in zoos, the extent of domestication compared to cats and dogs is significantly less. Cats and dogs have been kept domesticated for thousands of years and many species have evolved from their ancestors.

I also want to add the issue of animal hybrids, such as the Liger, with a tiger and lion parent. Ligers are larger than their parents and naturally cannot survive in the wild because of weaknesses developed from this cross-breeding. I think that creating these hybrids is unnecessary and cruel.

[MsRose]

I also want to add the issue of animal hybrids, such as the Liger, with a tiger and lion parent. Ligers are larger than their parents and naturally cannot survive in the wild because of weaknesses developed from this cross-breeding. I think that creating these hybrids is unnecessary and cruel.

Cruel is the one word that comes to mind every time I see a chiwawa. Did you know their eyeballs can pop out of their skull? Same with pugs. We've bred them to have such small skulls that their eyeballs barely fit. Using breeding as a tool for fun and amusement is something unique to human beings and it's quite strange.

Edited by MsRose, 04 January 2012 - 04:35 AM.

[AyoForYayo]

I'm a vegan. . . . . bout it

[chini]

I am all for animal welfare, but I find animal rights groups in general to be really obnoxious. As an animal science major I am more on the side of, "lets improve the industrial conditions instead of completely banning it altogether." Aka think Temple Grandin philosophy. A lot of the problems in the cattle, diary, swine and poultry industries really lie down in management. Proper care and diet of all these animals yields a higher more quality product. This is what makes animal products so profitable. Yeah some plants will think they can cut corners here and there to save some money, but it usually ends with the animal suffering, and less quality product and risking the entire business if they are caught breaking violations.

One example I suppose I can use would be the scene in Food Inc where the chicken coop was shown in completely unlit conditions. Chickens need to have lighting that reflects the amount of sunlight in the season, otherwise they get sick and their cycles get messed up. This particular company (I think it was Tyson, don't remember), decided to cut corners and save money by not providing a light source for the chickens. A huge no no by most people who raise chickens at a large scale operation. If the right diet isn't supplemented a ton of problems show up. I'll post a couple of those diseases and conditions with images once I get home (I am off work right now), they look oddly enough like the chickens shown in many animal rights pamphlets. So I question what the picture they are expressing is out of context or not, most of the time the figure caption says along the lines are "SEE HOW UNHEALTHY AND GROSS THESE ANIMALS ARE" without getting into details.

Spoiler

Caption took the words right out of my mouth.
Osteomalacia caused by calcium deficiency. Egg layers can get this condition real commonly if they are not fed enough calcium. Egg Layer Chickens need a ton of calcium for egg production otherwise their legs weaken, break easily.
Curled Toe Paralysis caused by a Riboflavin deficiency. Riboflavin provides the keys to metabolizing fats, carbs, and proteins. Without it animals get weak and eventually die

I still love meat so I end up buying locally and from smaller farms in the area, since I prefer to support the local area rather than the huge farms. I understand that isn't feasible in every area. I also don't attack vegetarians or vegans for their choices, as it's none of my business, and if it floats their boat, then I am fine with that.

Edited by chini, 04 January 2012 - 06:09 PM.

[ilovepolkadots]

Wild animals should also be kept in peace in my opinion. Safaris are cool , but I'm not a huge fan of zoos either. Animals in captivity live less longer than animals in their own habitat due to poor care and being neglected. I know this sounds weird but it has actually been proven that wild animals live longer in their habitat, where they are happy and free, even if they have lions as their enemies, etc.

Do you have a source for that? Because it sounds like rubbish.

while the use of safari in the first part of the original argument may indicate land mammals, i thought it still worth posting about marine mammals which have been proven to have a decreased life expectancy in captivity

here is one quick article to read over::

the one with the heading San Antonio, TX being most pertinent to this discussion




also to really track down the information you can use the Database: U.S. Marine Mammal Inventory search
which is quite interesting - listing when the animals are born, made captive/brought to facilities, dates of death and causes

[onlyme]

I'm a vegan. . . . . bout it

if you wouldnt do so many different kinds of drugs you would be a really healthy person. i love that you are vegan.
i don't wanna read this thread right now.
i love you sweeney.

[Sweeney]

while the use of safari in the first part of the original argument may indicate land mammals, i thought it still worth posting about marine mammals which have been proven to have a decreased life expectancy in captivity

here is one quick article to read over::

the one with the heading San Antonio, TX being most pertinent to this discussion

also to really track down the information you can use the [/size][/font]Database: U.S. Marine Mammal Inventory[font="Arial"][size="2"] search
which is quite interesting - listing when the animals are born, made captive/brought to facilities, dates of death and causes

Again, the exception rather than the rule. Three different types of animal does not constitute the majority explicity stated in the original comment.

[luvsmyncis]

Sea World: San Antonio is located on the West side of town. Yes. The Mexican side. Half the water in those tanks are probably loogies and urine.
But, rest assured, the animals of Sea World: San Antonio are plotting their revenge. Last year, at that very same location, a killer whale cause the death of a 40 year old trainer.
Even Steven?

[redlion]

Sea World: San Antonio is located on the West side of town. Yes. The Mexican side. Half the water in those tanks are probably loogies and urine.
But, rest assured, the animals of Sea World: San Antonio are plotting their revenge. Last year, at that very same location, a killer whale cause the death of a 40 year old trainer.
Even Steven?

Now if only we could get EACH killer whale and dolphin to kill a trainer before they die of human inaction or disease.

[iargue]

Idk why people keep claiming that animals are intelligent :| They wouldn't let us experiment on them if they where smart enough to know what we where going to do :|. I'm 100% against mistreating animals, but at the same time, i'm 100% against pretending that they are intelligent creatures driven by anything more then instinct.

Its because they are not intelligent that it is our duty as the intelligent species to treat them properly and protect them, not harm them or abuse them.

[Bone]

Idk why people keep claiming that animals are intelligent :| They wouldn't let us experiment on them if they where smart enough to know what we where going to do :|. I'm 100% against mistreating animals, but at the same time, i'm 100% against pretending that they are intelligent creatures driven by anything more then instinct.

Its because they are not intelligent that it is our duty as the intelligent species to treat them properly and protect them, not harm them or abuse them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HDGQySZ1gbs&feature=related

[Sweeney]

Idk why people keep claiming that animals are intelligent :| They wouldn't let us experiment on them if they where smart enough to know what we where going to do :|. I'm 100% against mistreating animals, but at the same time, i'm 100% against pretending that they are intelligent creatures driven by anything more then instinct.

Idk why people keep claiming that women are intelligent :| They wouldn't let men rape them if they where smart enough to know what the man where going to do :|. I'm 100% against mistreating women, but at the same time, i'm 100% against pretending that they are intelligent creatures driven by anything more then instinct.

Intelligence doesn't necessarily relate to the ability to act on a thought, nor the ability to articulate it.

Its because they are not intelligent that it is our duty as the intelligent species to treat them properly and protect them, not harm them or abuse them.

So if they were intelligent, it would be ok to carry on abusing them?

I think you're legitimately the most unconsidered person I have ever encountered.

[redlion]

I think you're legitimately the most unconsidered person I have ever encountered.

The examined life is not for everyone, it seems.

[ilovepolkadots]

Again, the exception rather than the rule. Three different types of animal does not constitute the majority explicity stated in the original comment.

though the article i posted only pertains to a few species, if you use the search engine i listed you can see that many marine mammal species have a shortened life expectancy in captivity

[Waser Lave]

though the article i posted only pertains to a few species, if you use the search engine i listed you can see that many marine mammal species have a shortened life expectancy in captivity

Large marine animals tend to need a lot of space to live in and we can't really emulate their natural environments effectively in captivity so it's pretty obvious that keeping them in captivity would have a more significant impact on life expectancy for those as compared with most other terrestrial animals. I don't personally agree with keeping animals like dolphins and whales in captivity for that very reason.

[Frizzle]

Unless of course it happens to save the species and gives us a better biological understanding of them?

[Waser Lave]

Unless of course it happens to save the species and gives us a better biological understanding of them?

I meant for entertainment purposes which is probably the main reason for most of the dolphins and whales currently in captivity. We don't learn much from dolphins jumping through hoops in front of crowds of tourists.

[onlyme]

Idk why people keep claiming that animals are intelligent :| They wouldn't let us experiment on them if they where smart enough to know what we where going to do :|. I'm 100% against mistreating animals, but at the same time, i'm 100% against pretending that they are intelligent creatures driven by anything more then instinct.

Its because they are not intelligent that it is our duty as the intelligent species to treat them properly and protect them, not harm them or abuse them.

Idk why iargue keeps claiming that he is intelligent :| He wouldn't post so much shit anymore if he were smart enough to know what people would think of him. I'm 100% against mistreating iargue, but at the same time i'm 100% against him pretending that he is an intelligent creature driven by anything more than foolishness.

Edited by onlyme, 12 January 2012 - 07:35 AM.

[Tsvete]

Idk why people keep claiming that animals are intelligent :| They wouldn't let us experiment on them if they where smart enough to know what we where going to do :|. I'm 100% against mistreating animals, but at the same time, i'm 100% against pretending that they are intelligent creatures driven by anything more then instinct.

Its because they are not intelligent that it is our duty as the intelligent species to treat them properly and protect them, not harm them or abuse them.

Correct me if my basic English fails me, but don't you mean "were" not "where"?

And what you said is total bullshit. My dog learned to pee outside, you didn't learn you should stop posting shit. Hint hint ^^

[luvsmyncis]

Must we?

I was outside smoking a cigarette once, and a dog approached me. I hissed at it, to make it get away, but it started wagging it's tail excitedly now that it had my attention. I told the dog it was stupid and that I want it to go away forever. It started jumping around, thinking I wanted to play with it. I said, "No, dog, I hate you and your weird hair and I think you should leave. No one wants you here." It started whining, and panting obscenely, and still wouldn't leave.

Then there was another time a dog came up to me, while I was on break. This time, I turned my back to it and it got bored and went away.

Learn anything?

[Waser Lave]

Learn anything?

Smoking attracts dogs?

[onlyme]

Must we?

I was outside smoking a cigarette once, and a dog approached me. I hissed at it, to make it get away, but it started wagging it's tail excitedly now that it had my attention. I told the dog it was stupid and that I want it to go away forever. It started jumping around, thinking I wanted to play with it. I said, "No, dog, I hate you and your weird hair and I think you should leave. No one wants you here." It started whining, and panting obscenely, and still wouldn't leave.

Then there was another time a dog came up to me, while I was on break. This time, I turned my back to it and it got bored and went away.

Learn anything?

yes. you are right. i am sorry. *turns round*

[Galadriel]

In Africa they ride eliphants and live amongst the wild life, but you don't hear of any human-animal incidents do you? No. That is because the humans respect the animals and the animals respect the humans. When a lion gets close to a house, they don't shoot it with sawn-off shot guns. In Africa they are awoken by the songs of birds frollicking in the early morning sun and monkeys rambling in the bushes. No harm is done.

[Waser Lave]

In Africa they ride eliphants and live amongst the wild life, but you don't hear of any human-animal incidents do you? No. That is because the humans respect the animals and the animals respect the humans. When a lion gets close to a house, they don't shoot it with sawn-off shot guns. In Africa they are awoken by the songs of birds frollicking in the early morning sun and monkeys rambling in the bushes. No harm is done.

I can't tell if this was a joke or ignorance.