58 replies to this topic

[Kauvara]

"The great white shark is an example of an apex predator."

I am sure I have seen a group of killer whales hunting and killing a great white.

They did the flip trick, where the shark goes into that trance thing.

I can't find the actual video, but i do remember seeing it.

You're right, Killer Whales will attack and kill Great Whites. They're one of my favorite animals.

[Yung]

Crocodiles, lions, tigers, wolves....they all fuck our shit up.

I disagree with adding wolves to the list, at best that should be on a sub-species case by case basis. There is not a single report of a Grey Wolf attack unless it was because someone passed between a mated pair. Furthermore wolves are rarely, if ever, the Apex Predator considering their territories are almost always shared by other more powerful predators that will kill and eat them if the opportunity arises. Bears and wolves most often overlap territories and have shared territories as such the wolf is just a predator and not an Apex Predator.

Post Script: I added a topic poll, first time ever making one. Be sure to vote whether or not you even feel that humans should be being classified as Apex Predators or not.

[Lasciel]

Voted!

You *might* be able to outsmart them sometimes, but you're definitely not out running or overpowering any of them.

and this.

[HanVan]

I decided to vote yes.

I have my reasons, but I very much doubt I could get why I came to that conclusion into print.

(at least not something that couldn't be torn to shreds anyway)

[Ladida]

Never seen Jaws? We are only an apex predator when we have technology available otherwise we're pretty much useless against other apex predators like bears, lions, tigers, sharks and wombats.

This is exactly what I wanted to say in this discussion. If I'm dumped out in the Amazon right now with only my fingernails, little teeth and weak-by-comparison muscles, I would definitely be the prey, not the apex predator.

[NapisaurusRex]

Post Script: I added a topic poll, first time ever making one. Be sure to vote whether or not you even feel that humans should be being classified as Apex Predators or not.

I can't vote yes or no. Some people have it in them, some people don't. I'm convinced that animal predators are like that too, it's just not recognized because the ones that don't have it don't live very long.

This is exactly what I wanted to say in this discussion. If I'm dumped out in the Amazon right now with only my fingernails, little teeth and weak-by-comparison muscles, I would definitely be the prey, not the apex predator.

I'm going to assume that wouldn't be your natural habitat though, either, even if we didn't have technology and houses and stuff. Intelligence is definitely a factor in predation. The people who do have the Amazon as a natural environment seem to live and survive in it just fine.

Edited by Napiform, 16 February 2012 - 10:28 AM.

[Ladida]

I'm going to assume that wouldn't be your natural habitat though, either, even if we didn't have technology and houses and stuff. Intelligence is definitely a factor in predation. The people who do have the Amazon as a natural environment seem to live and survive in it just fine.

I think the people are fine only because the higher predators choose to leave them alone, probably since they're getting easier prey. The example I'm thinking about is this:

http://en.wikipedia...._the_Sundarbans

[Yung]

I think the people are fine only because the higher predators choose to leave them alone, probably since they're getting easier prey. The example I'm thinking about is this:

http://en.wikipedia...._the_Sundarbans

Here Ladida, I found a more credible source for you on this aspect of the topic.

Environmental News Network - Climate change linked to Indian tiger attacks

This article also goes into further detail as to what is speculated to be the cause of the tiger attacks.

[NapisaurusRex]

I think the people are fine only because the higher predators choose to leave them alone, probably since they're getting easier prey. The example I'm thinking about is this:

http://en.wikipedia...._the_Sundarbans

But if you took that tiger and took it to a major city, would it still be the apex predator?

[Waser Lave]

But if you took that tiger and took it to a major city, would it still be the apex predator?

That's like saying if you took a killer whale to the middle of a desert would it be an apex predator. It's irrelevant.

[Nymh]

That's like saying if you took a killer whale to the middle of a desert would it be an apex predator. It's irrelevant.

You changed your name

[Kauvara]

I disagree with adding wolves to the list, at best that should be on a sub-species case by case basis. There is not a single report of a Grey Wolf attack unless it was because someone passed between a mated pair. Furthermore wolves are rarely, if ever, the Apex Predator considering their territories are almost always shared by other more powerful predators that will kill and eat them if the opportunity arises. Bears and wolves most often overlap territories and have shared territories as such the wolf is just a predator and not an Apex Predator.

Post Script: I added a topic poll, first time ever making one. Be sure to vote whether or not you even feel that humans should be being classified as Apex Predators or not.

I wasn't saying that wolves are apex predators, that was simply a short list of animals that can attack and kill you, lol. If you're out in the middle of a packs territory and they're hungry, then indeed they would eat you. Without any weapons, a simple human is completely defenseless against a ravenous pack of wolves.
http://www.hcn.org/issues/315/16084

http://www.aws.vcn.c..._on_humans.html

Anyways, the main point was that humans are not apex predators.

I can't vote yes or no. Some people have it in them, some people don't. I'm convinced that animal predators are like that too, it's just not recognized because the ones that don't have it don't live very long.

I'm thinking of this in terms of the typical human being versus the typical bear (or whatever predatory animal.) Nails to nails, in my opinion it is the predatory animal who would come out victorious.

When adding in variables such as strength and health - such as a malnourished, lanky mountain lion against some 300lb bodybuilder (I'm exaggerating but hopefully you get the point) - the human may very well stand a chance.

Sure we might be able to think ourselves out of the situation, but this only happens in a handful of cases. You need to be really, REALLY quick in making a life-saving decision. The fact is most humans just aren't built enough or fast enough to survive the typical predator attack - if the predator's intentions are to kill.

[NapisaurusRex]

That's like saying if you took a killer whale to the middle of a desert would it be an apex predator. It's irrelevant.

Here's what makes it relevant:

Ladida was saying that if they were dumped in the middle of the Amazon, then they wouldn't have a chance of survival. This is the basis for humans not being an apex predator. However, if you dump a tiger in the middle of the city, it would no longer be an apex predator. And yes, if you take a killer whale to Niger, it will no longer be the apex predator. But here, in my current natural environment at this time, I am technically the apex predator. Will my status change if I change locations? Yes, but so would the status of every other predator.

Since humans no longer have the biological need to be the apex predator through physical hunting and eating, this trait has manifested itself in some people through other ways. That's how we end up with Alpha males/females, wife-beaters, and serial killers. They have this natural desire, a carnal compulsion, to destroy creatures even though they don't need to do it for food anymore.

[Yung]

Well then what you are saying is the exact opposite of evolution. You are insinuating that as an Apex Predator human they are susceptible to much more primal instincts instead of moving forward as an advancement of the evolution of the human species.

That is of course assuming that you believe in the plausibility of evolution and that humans, or some humans, are Apex Predators.

[Bone]

I think evolution may have created us to be food for everyone else... no fur, no scales, teeth/claws aren't that sharp, raw meat/water is deadly, eyesight not that good. If we were just a little bit dumber or had no thumbs, we probably would've died out or gained cooler adaptations years ago.

Evolution doesn't work that way...there is no 'goal'.

Anyways, we would definitely still be around. See: all other primates.

Since humans no longer have the biological need to be the apex predator through physical hunting and eating, this trait has manifested itself in some people through other ways. That's how we end up with Alpha males/females, wife-beaters, and serial killers. They have this natural desire, a carnal compulsion, to destroy creatures even though they don't need to do it for food anymore.

Yep. We have serial killers because we don't need to hunt for food anymore. Nailed it, I wonder why the scientific community hasn't thought of this yet?

That is of course assuming that you believe in the plausibility of evolution and that humans, or some humans, are Apex Predators.

No one has any more reason to disbelieve in gravity than evolution.

[Yung]

Yet people still do disbelieve in evolution. Whether they disbelieve due to personal, religious, or logical (least likely) reasons there are still plenty of people who don't believe in evolution and actively work at disproving it. Evolution is still just a theory and as such it is still up for debate as to whether or not it is true. Personally I believe in evolution but that doesn't mean everyone that believes in gravity is going to believe in evolution just myself personally believe in both.

[Ladida]

Here's what makes it relevant:

Ladida was saying that if they were dumped in the middle of the Amazon, then they wouldn't have a chance of survival. This is the basis for humans not being an apex predator. However, if you dump a tiger in the middle of the city, it would no longer be an apex predator. And yes, if you take a killer whale to Niger, it will no longer be the apex predator. But here, in my current natural environment at this time, I am technically the apex predator. Will my status change if I change locations? Yes, but so would the status of every other predator.

Since humans no longer have the biological need to be the apex predator through physical hunting and eating, this trait has manifested itself in some people through other ways. That's how we end up with Alpha males/females, wife-beaters, and serial killers. They have this natural desire, a carnal compulsion, to destroy creatures even though they don't need to do it for food anymore.

Hmm, that wasn't the point I was trying to convey. Humans as they are, without man-made weapons to assist them, would not be able to assume the position of apex predator. Hence the example I put forward. The other apex predators do not rely on weapons to take down their prey. This was posted as I agreed with Waser's statement.

Now if a tiger somehow managed to get into my city, and found itself in my vicinity, there is utterly no way I would be able to take it down. I don't have the weapon/s necessary, I don't have a car to try and run over it with or make a speedy getaway, and I don't have the tough animal hide, claws, teeth or muscles which would be required to successfully defeat this beast. If tigers frequented my area to hunt me, I'd probably be better prepared, but that would only be because of the inventions of other humans, rather than my own.

As it stands right now, I am not an apex predator, as I'm in no position to kill animals that may consider me yummy.

[Yung]

In other words I simply can't speak for anyone besides myself on the matter. I just know that there are many people who don't believe in evolution usually due to religious beliefs.

As it stands right now, I am not an apex predator, as I'm in no position to kill animals that may consider me yummy.

Territorial would be another reason an animal may hunt you. It may not be to eat you but to take your territory for itself.

The other possibility is to defend its young whether you meant them harm or not.

Edited by Yung, 16 February 2012 - 01:33 PM.

[Bone]

Evolution is still just a theory and as such it is still up for debate as to whether or not it is true.

Just like gravity.


I didn't question whether you believed in it or not. It's just not relevant enough to the discussion to even bring up. It's hardly possible to have a rational discussion with someone who thinks they can disprove the theory of evolution.

[Boggart]

Evolution is still just a theory and as such it is still up for debate as to whether or not it is true. P

Technically, everything is still a theory. We might not be breathing air but really pushing out solids, and cigarettes might not cause cancer. We can't prove anything, ever.

Like, it's technically a theory that you're intelligent. But we can never prove or disprove this theory. Even though it's obvious.

[Sweeney]

Like, it's technically a theory that you're intelligent. But we can never prove or disprove this theory. Even though it's obvious.

Pffwhat?

[Yung]

I'm not disagreeing with either of you on that point as you are both correct.

I do however feel that if some humans are an Apex Predators and others are not that it would be because they are the beginning of the next phase of human evolution, not like X-Men, just more advanced in certain areas than other humans are. So in that way I find the discussion of evolution relevant to the topic.

[Scot]

Just like gravity.


I didn't question whether you believed in it or not. It's just not relevant enough to the discussion to even bring up. It's hardly possible to have a rational discussion with someone who thinks they can disprove the theory of evolution.

[Bone]

I'm not disagreeing with either of you on that point as you are both correct.

I do however feel that if some humans are an Apex Predators and others are not that it would be because they are the beginning of the next phase of human evolution, not like X-Men, just more advanced in certain areas than other humans are. So in that way I find the discussion of evolution relevant to the topic.

So you're trying to say some humans have natural predators and others don't? And this is related to evolution...how?

[Yung]

This is related to evolution because for some humans to have developed advantages to other predators there has to be a distinction between them that was/is otherwise non-existent before them.

Consider this, humans are both the prey and predators to themselves. What is it that gives one human an advantage over the other? I believe that there is to some degree evolution to allow that one of the humans has an advantage over the other in the first place.

Again that is just my opinion.