Quantcast

Jump to content


Photo

In defense of Obama


  • Please log in to reply
60 replies to this topic

#26 iargue

iargue
  • 10048 posts


Users Awards

Posted 19 April 2012 - 04:24 PM

I use that analogy to illustrate that sometimes leaders just have to do what must be done, even if it costs money

And I think that "all of his policies and actions" is a little general. Do you think that any President goes into office thinking, "I'm going to send this country to hell so fast they'll wish they had never elected me!" No... their campaigns are of course their advertisement for what they would like to be able to deliver, but when they get into office they have to deal with the hand they are dealt. I don't think any other President would have been able to get through the last four years without spending some money.



You are attempting to state that all of the spending was done to save the economy so that way the country wouldn't die. Most of his spending was on federal spending, whereas the private sector is what was failing. The 800 billion dollar stimulus package that you said not passing would have been an "big middle finger" to the failing banks, did not give money to the banks. It gave money to the federal government, in hundreds of thousands of bullshit projects. 13% of the 800 billion alone went to the "Office of the inspector general" just so he could oversee the distribution of the money.

When the bill contains things such as "1.6 million for the research and disassembly of ATV vehicles" its not to stimulate the economy. Its to spend money we don't need to spend.

We are talking about 5 trillion dollars in 4 years. The highest spending out of all of the governments. If the spending was to save the economy, eg: he spent the money to keep the biggest companies alive so that way the economy could survive. Yet hes spent trillions on government spending alone, with more then enough money going to projects that shouldn't even exist. At what point does it stop being to save the economy and become wasteful spending? When 16 million goes to "research into alternative currency"?

#27 artificial

artificial
  • 186 posts


Users Awards

Posted 19 April 2012 - 04:30 PM

I'm still amazed how little US citizens pay in tax. 30% is one of Australia's lowest income tax rates, and yet the US is struggling to raise their highest up to that level.

I bet if politicians stopped promising to cut taxes, and instead raised them to a decent level, a lot of the country's financial problems would be solved.

#28 Sweeney

Sweeney
  • 1230 posts


Users Awards

Posted 19 April 2012 - 04:32 PM

Far be it from me to overstep, but it strikes me that an awful lot of facts and figures are being bandied about without verifiable sources. I know. God forbid.

#29 Bone

Bone
  • no

  • 3638 posts


Users Awards

Posted 19 April 2012 - 04:34 PM

Rampant, unchecked government spending is a problem. But I'm not going to attempt to debate it with someone who (evidently) lacks an elementary understanding of economics.

Also, what everyone else said. Look at the alternative...

#30 Nymh

Nymh
  • Keeper of Secrets

  • 4626 posts


Users Awards

Posted 19 April 2012 - 04:35 PM

You say all of this as if it's the President's fault that bills and amendments get stuffed into everything that is passed to give money to feed the lobbyists. This happens with everything that is passed through congress. You can't blame Obama for some bullshit money that went to research ATV vehicles.

And I don't know where you're getting your information, but Citigroup ($45b), Bank of America ($45b), AIG ($40b), JP Morgan ($25b), Wells Fargo ($25b) and others all got TARP money - note these are all banks

Unlisted are some dozen or so other banks that also were funded through this program. While the amount given to banks is generally rounded off to around $200-300 billion dollars, less than half of the TARP fund, I still think it's kind of silly to say that it "did not give money to the banks."

#31 ShadowLink64

ShadowLink64
  • 16735 posts


Users Awards

Posted 19 April 2012 - 04:35 PM

I'm still amazed how little US citizens pay in tax. 30% is one of Australia's lowest income tax rates, and yet the US is struggling to raise their highest up to that level.

I bet if politicians stopped promising to cut taxes, and instead raised them to a decent level, a lot of the country's financial problems would be solved.

I've thought the same thing as well, but that would essentially be suicide for whichever party felt bold enough to raise the taxes, especially since the other party would promise lower taxes so that they can get elected. It would have to be a bipartisan decision of some sort, or else the public would just vote for the lower taxes (I would think).

#32 iargue

iargue
  • 10048 posts


Users Awards

Posted 19 April 2012 - 07:49 PM

You say all of this as if it's the President's fault that bills and amendments get stuffed into everything that is passed to give money to feed the lobbyists. This happens with everything that is passed through congress. You can't blame Obama for some bullshit money that went to research ATV vehicles.

And I don't know where you're getting your information, but Citigroup ($45b), Bank of America ($45b), AIG ($40b), JP Morgan ($25b), Wells Fargo ($25b) and others all got TARP money - note these are all banks

Unlisted are some dozen or so other banks that also were funded through this program. While the amount given to banks is generally rounded off to around $200-300 billion dollars, less than half of the TARP fund, I still think it's kind of silly to say that it "did not give money to the banks."



Refusing to sign a bill usually gets it done....

And I am speaking about the 800 billion dollars spent on a investment act, that you said if we didn't pass it, it would be saying fuck you to the big businesses.

TARP is a program created by Bush (Not obama)

Far be it from me to overstep, but it strikes me that an awful lot of facts and figures are being bandied about without verifiable sources. I know. God forbid.


I actually DID name a source.

And here is a link to, just so that way you cant say that sources don't exist.

http://www.gpo.gov/f...S-111hr1enr.pdf

#33 NapisaurusRex

NapisaurusRex
  • 🍴Aioli-American🍴

  • 9425 posts


Users Awards

Posted 19 April 2012 - 07:55 PM

I actually DID name a source.

And here is a link to, just so that way you cant say that sources don't exist.

http://www.gpo.gov/f...S-111hr1enr.pdf


I need to know who wrote this. Do they have a PhD?

Refusing to sign a bill usually gets it done....


I actually had this same statement for a very similar debate I had irl earlier. Maybe you guys can refute it better than the idiot I was talking to, because I don't totally understand why this doesn't work.

Edited by Napiform, 19 April 2012 - 07:57 PM.


#34 iargue

iargue
  • 10048 posts


Users Awards

Posted 19 April 2012 - 07:55 PM

I've thought the same thing as well, but that would essentially be suicide for whichever party felt bold enough to raise the taxes, especially since the other party would promise lower taxes so that they can get elected. It would have to be a bipartisan decision of some sort, or else the public would just vote for the lower taxes (I would think).



Actually. There is a huge fatal flaw that needs to be resolved that would reduce spending significantly.

When the government goes looking at budgeting, it only considers what you actually spent that year, not at what you were budgeted. So say you were budgeted 200 million to spend, but at the end of the financial year, you only spend 130 million. Your next years budget would be based upon 130 million, and so you wold lose 70 million in possible budget simply because you didn't send as much as expected. This causes most agencies to spend a large amount of money on useless things so they do not lose any possible budget. This leads to everyone getting new chairs or desks, or new phones, or anything else they can throw the money away to so they can keep their budget next year.

No agency should be punished if they don't spend their entire budget.

#35 Sweeney

Sweeney
  • 1230 posts


Users Awards

Posted 19 April 2012 - 10:49 PM

I actually DID name a source.

And here is a link to, just so that way you cant say that sources don't exist.

http://www.gpo.gov/f...S-111hr1enr.pdf

A government site? Everyone knows governments are dIshonest and untrustworthy.
Your source doesn't meet my standards, therefore everything you have ever said is wrong.

(Sounds ridiculous when someone says it back to you, doesn't it?)

#36 ToxicS

ToxicS
  • 2580 posts

Posted 19 April 2012 - 11:14 PM



#37 artificial

artificial
  • 186 posts


Users Awards

Posted 19 April 2012 - 11:26 PM

A government site? Everyone knows governments are dIshonest and untrustworthy.
Your source doesn't meet my standards, therefore everything you have ever said is wrong.

(Sounds ridiculous when someone says it back to you, doesn't it?)


I could already feel my opinion of you changing before reading the final line.

#38 iargue

iargue
  • 10048 posts


Users Awards

Posted 20 April 2012 - 08:50 AM

A government site? Everyone knows governments are dIshonest and untrustworthy.
Your source doesn't meet my standards, therefore everything you have ever said is wrong.

(Sounds ridiculous when someone says it back to you, doesn't it?)



Your right, the actual text of the law past can't be used as a valid source. Someone needs to write a book about it before we can use it as a source.

My mistake.

I need to know who wrote this. Do they have a PhD?


Such a stupid argument. This is not research. This is not a study. This has no scientific merit whatsoever at all. Its a LAW, passed by a group of people elected to do this (although poorly).

You only need to have a PHD (Or masters, or bachelors for fucks sake. Or make a single certification) in your field when you are doing research on something and presenting it as a scientific piece of evidence.

#39 Boggart

Boggart
  • Professional Napper

  • 7981 posts


Users Awards

Posted 20 April 2012 - 08:54 AM

Such a stupid argument. This is not research. This is not a study. This has no scientific merit whatsoever at all. Its a LAW, passed by a group of people elected to do this (although poorly).

You only need to have a PHD (Or masters, or bachelors for fucks sake. Or make a single certification) in your field when you are doing research on something and presenting it as a scientific piece of evidence.


She was clearly mocking you. I really hope you're just playing stupid.

#40 Sweeney

Sweeney
  • 1230 posts


Users Awards

Posted 20 April 2012 - 09:01 AM

Your right, the actual text of the law past can't be used as a valid source. Someone needs to write a book about it before we can use it as a source.

My mistake.

Don't be silly. That's not the actual text of the law.
It's a digital copy that could easily have been edited to make a political point.
You ol' dafty 'nanahead.

#41 iargue

iargue
  • 10048 posts


Users Awards

Posted 20 April 2012 - 04:13 PM

Don't be silly. That's not the actual text of the law.
It's a digital copy that could easily have been edited to make a political point.
You ol' dafty 'nanahead.



Okay. I'll bite.

Why would a government edit text to make itself look worse?

#42 Waser Lave

Waser Lave

  • 25516 posts


Users Awards

Posted 20 April 2012 - 05:12 PM

Okay. I'll bite.

Why would a government edit text to make itself look worse?


To make people think that it would be nonsensical for a government to want to edit text to make itself look worse.

#43 Wrukag

Wrukag
  • 33 posts

Posted 20 April 2012 - 07:27 PM

Obama supporters will justify it, they don't seem to understand how serious the debt problem is. Ps, I'm not a Republican so spare me the snappy left vs right comebacks.

I dislike Obama because he has done a worse job then Bush at eroding civil liberties, starting wars and taking the steps toward a socialist police state.

I like "obamacare", however I don't like that the IRS will be in charge of making sure you buy healthcare and if you refuse to buy healthcare or your in the grey area(make to much for free healthcare, don't make enough to buy healthcare) you will, after a certain number of offences, become a felon.

#44 Frizzle

Frizzle
  • M'lord

  • 16889 posts


Users Awards

Posted 20 April 2012 - 07:54 PM

Sorry, how many wars has Obama started?

#45 Hydrogen

Hydrogen
  • Neocodex Co-Founder

  • 22213 posts


Users Awards

Posted 20 April 2012 - 07:56 PM

Obama supporters will justify it, they don't seem to understand how serious the debt problem is. Ps, I'm not a Republican so spare me the snappy left vs right comebacks.

I dislike Obama because he has done a worse job then Bush at eroding civil liberties, starting wars and taking the steps toward a socialist police state.

I like "obamacare", however I don't like that the IRS will be in charge of making sure you buy healthcare and if you refuse to buy healthcare or your in the grey area(make to much for free healthcare, don't make enough to buy healthcare) you will, after a certain number of offences, become a felon.

Trolling in an iargue thread? Impressive. You sir, have balls. You're trying to troll a troll.

#46 Sweeney

Sweeney
  • 1230 posts


Users Awards

Posted 21 April 2012 - 01:49 AM

Okay. I'll bite.

Why would a government edit text to make itself look worse?

Who knows?
Maybe they got bored halfway through and started making things up without a care for appearances or accuracy.

#47 NapisaurusRex

NapisaurusRex
  • 🍴Aioli-American🍴

  • 9425 posts


Users Awards

Posted 21 April 2012 - 04:48 AM

Sorry, how many wars has Obama started?


Started, or joined willy-nilly? I can't think of any he's STARTED that didn't already have stuff going on, but we got involved in Afghanistan, Libya, Uganda, Yemen, and according to the news lately, women.

I read something last week about him deploying people out to the Filipino/China not-a-skirmish, but I can't find it again so I'm not sure if he actually did.

I think that if he gets re-elected, then he'll also start/involve us in wars with Mexico, Israel/Egypt/whoever else, China, and then start throwing darts at a map.

Edited by Napiform, 21 April 2012 - 04:49 AM.


#48 Waser Lave

Waser Lave

  • 25516 posts


Users Awards

Posted 21 April 2012 - 05:01 AM

Started, or joined willy-nilly? I can't think of any he's STARTED that didn't already have stuff going on, but we got involved in Afghanistan, Libya, Uganda, Yemen, and according to the news lately, women.


America was at war in Afghanistan long before Obama was president, they did nothing in Libya really apart from air strikes and that's the same with Yemen, and in Uganda you're only talking about up to 100 troops. In the cases of Libya and Uganda, America got involved in order to help stop the widespread murder of civilians which was taking place in both of those countries so I'm not really sure how you can criticise that given the small amount of cost involved and the very low number of soldiers involved. In Yemen you're only really talking about drone strikes on terrorist targets so that seems difficult to criticise too because they're relatively cheap, effective and low risk.

I read something last week about him deploying people out to the Filipino/China not-a-skirmish, but I can't find it again so I'm not sure if he actually did.


Regarding the Philippines, America had recently taken part in military exercises with that country which would probably have been planned months in advance. America also recently took part in military exercises in Scotland with the UK armed forces (along with Canada and a host of other European countries) but I don't see you complaining about that.

#49 NapisaurusRex

NapisaurusRex
  • 🍴Aioli-American🍴

  • 9425 posts


Users Awards

Posted 21 April 2012 - 05:26 AM

America was at war in Afghanistan long before Obama was president, they did nothing in Libya really apart from air strikes and that's the same with Yemen, and in Uganda you're only talking about up to 100 troops. In the cases of Libya and Uganda, America got involved in order to help stop the widespread murder of civilians which was taking place in both of those countries so I'm not really sure how you can criticise that given the small amount of cost involved and the very low number of soldiers involved. In Yemen you're only really talking about drone strikes on terrorist targets so that seems difficult to criticise too because they're relatively cheap, effective and low risk.


I thought we pulled out of Afghanistan and then went back?

I wouldn't criticize it, except for we had no reason to get involved. They aren't our responsibility. Also, in addition to doing our own stuff and supplying our own equipment for Libya, we also were supplying aid to the civilians. There were A LOT of tomahawk missiles in the airstrike on Libya, and those aren't cheap. Fox reported the cost at ~600,000, but the more liberal news stations reported them at over a million apiece. We were already in debt when these things started happening. All this didn't help. Is it being relatively cheaper an adequate justification for doing it over and over?

He kept talking about bringing troops home, but really they're all just being relocated. And wasn't doing air strikes on Libya technically something he should have had permission for? If I remember right, he never got it, which set a precedent for future presidents to start 'skirmishes' without Congress or anyone else involved. Those can escalate into full-blown wars at any time. Sure, he's picked countries that aren't exactly going to come at us, but who's to stop someone in the future from doing it now that now they know they can do little war actions without permission.

Edit: That was already answered.

Regarding the Philippines, America had recently taken part in military exercises with that country which would probably have been planned months in advance. America also recently took part in military exercises in Scotland with the UK armed forces (along with Canada and a host of other European countries) but I don't see you complaining about that.


You're right. Below is the article I was reading and I misread the part about deployment. (I think. It's not a very clear statement.)

http://www.foxnews.c...-more-warships/

Edited by Napiform, 21 April 2012 - 05:26 AM.


#50 Averssion

Averssion
  • 20 posts

Posted 21 April 2012 - 06:02 AM

I wouldn't criticize it, except for we had no reason to get involved. They aren't our responsibility.


When has that ever stopped the US? Though helping the Libyan rebels was one of the few things I think the US has actually gotten right. Kudos to Obama and his administration for (eventually) doing the right thing.

Edited by Averssion, 21 April 2012 - 06:03 AM.



0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users