111 replies to this topic

[iargue]

Everyone wants to pretend as if they could have stopped a massacre from occurring... Hindsight is 20/20. If we are planning for the future we should make plans for the future and not a hypothetical plan to change all of our laws regarding firearms based upon a single incident. Also, the plan that I suggested very well may have stopped him if he had been prevented by a psychiatric evaluation. Sane people don't go into theaters and murder people...

An psychiatric evaluations are in no way at all a "catch all" for anyone who is going to do something. In fact, hundreds of thousands of mentally ill people are diagnosed as sane when they are not. When purchasing a weapon and planning on going on a rampage and knowing you will go through an evaluation, its not hard to prepare yourself. An evaluation relies on you providing correct answers to questions they ask you, and he simply would provide different, normal sounding answers. After all, he was a medical student, I'm sure he probably even took psychology for several years as part of his schooling.

If you honestly believe that this is an isolated event and we shouldn't worry about it and just continue on with our normal laws an mark this up as an exception, then I feel very very sorry for you.

How about almost 20 other times that a mass shooting has happened?

- July 20, 2012: At least 12 people are killed and 58 are injured when a gunman enters an Aurora, Colo., movie theater, releases a canister of gas and then opens fire during opening night of the Batman movie "The Dark Knight Rises."

- Nov. 5, 2009: Thirteen soldiers and civilians were killed and more than two dozen wounded when a gunman walked into the Soldier Readiness Processing Center at Fort Hood, Texas, and opened fire. Army psychiatrist Maj. Nidal Hasan is charged with 13 counts of premeditated murder and 32 counts of attempted premeditated murder.

- March 10, 2009: Michael McLendon, 28, killed 10 people - including his mother, four other relatives, and the wife and child of a local sheriff's deputy - across two rural Alabama counties. He then killed himself.

- April 16, 2007: Seung-Hui Cho, 23, kills 32 people and himself on Virginia Tech campus in Blacksburg, Va.

- April 20, 1999: Students Eric Harris, 18, and Dylan Klebold, 17, opened fire at Columbine High School in Littleton, Colo., killing 12 classmates and a teacher and wounding 26 others before killing themselves in the school's library.

- Oct. 16, 1991: A deadly shooting rampage took place in Killeen, Texas, as George Hennard opened fire at a Luby's Cafeteria, killing 23 people before taking his own life. 20 others were wounded in the attack.

- June 18, 1990: James Edward Pough shoots people at random in a General Motors Acceptance Corp. office in Jacksonville, Fla., killing 10 and wounding four, before killing himself.

- July 12, 1976: Edward Charles Allaway, a custodian in the library of California State University, Fullerton, fatally shot seven fellow employees and wounded two others.

- Aug. 20, 1986: Pat Sherrill, 44, a postal worker who was about to be fired, shoots 14 people at a post office in Edmond, Okla. He then kills himself.

- July 18, 1984: James Oliver Huberty, an out-of-work security guard, kills 21 people in a McDonald's restaurant in San Ysidro, Calif. A police sharpshooter kills Huberty.

- Aug. 1, 1966: Charles Whitman opened fire from the clock tower at the University of Texas at Austin, killing 16 people and wounding 31.

Yup. almost 20 times someone got their hands on a weapon, killed more then a dozen people (and this isn't even close to a complete list). But we should ignore this. We should act like its a fluke. Lets focus on methods that will not stop this from happening. Lets ignore the fact that one of the killers was actually a psychiatrist. I'm sure a mental health exam would have caught that one for sure. Given that he worked for the military and they had no clue.

[essie]

I don't think that whether or not guns and ammunition were easily accessible to this individual would have discouraged his behavior. He was obviously sick, and I personally believe he would have carried out activities that involved taking lives regardless. As someone made the point earlier, he could have resorted to other weapons, like the ones in his home. Obviously not in the same environment as he did, but someone who planned as extensively as he did would have figured something out, as horrible as it is to say.

The argument that it may not have been as devastating if there was stricter gun control, or bans on firearms throughout the United States, I believe is valid. But it would not have stopped him.

Someone needs to help me understand something though. Did he tell the police about the booby traps in his apartment? I thought he wasn't speaking.

Edited by essie, 22 July 2012 - 12:05 PM.

[iargue]

I don't think that whether or not guns and ammunition were easily accessible to this individual would have discouraged his behavior. He was obviously sick, and I personally believe he would have carried out activities that involved taking lives regardless. As someone made the point earlier, he could have resorted to other weapons, like the ones in his home. Obviously not in the same environment as he did, but someone who planned as extensively as he did would have figured something out, as horrible as it is to say.

The argument that it may not have been as devastating if their was stricter gun control, or bans on firearms throughout the United States, I believe is valid. But it would not have stopped him.

Someone needs to help me understand something though. Did he tell the police about the booby traps in his apartment? I thought he wasn't speaking.

They found the booby traps themselves. After seeing the person kill 12 people in cold blood, it's obvious to not rush into his building. They have a system of procedures setup to prevent things like this.

[Ladida]

Apparently, Holmes told police during his arrest he had booby-trapped the third-floor apartment.

CNN: http://edition.cnn.c...article_sidebar

[essie]

CNN: http://edition.cnn.c...article_sidebar

The newspaper article that I read today made a similar statement.
Even if it's untrue, iargue makes a good point.

I'd have to imagine that he did not say it nicely though, I couldn't see someone who could do that nicely warning the officers arresting him of the traps in his home.

[WharfRat]

An psychiatric evaluations are in no way at all a "catch all" for anyone who is going to do something. In fact, hundreds of thousands of mentally ill people are diagnosed as sane when they are not. When purchasing a weapon and planning on going on a rampage and knowing you will go through an evaluation, its not hard to prepare yourself. An evaluation relies on you providing correct answers to questions they ask you, and he simply would provide different, normal sounding answers. After all, he was a medical student, I'm sure he probably even took psychology for several years as part of his schooling.

If you honestly believe that this is an isolated event and we shouldn't worry about it and just continue on with our normal laws an mark this up as an exception, then I feel very very sorry for you.

How about almost 20 other times that a mass shooting has happened?



Yup. almost 20 times someone got their hands on a weapon, killed more then a dozen people (and this isn't even close to a complete list). But we should ignore this. We should act like its a fluke. Lets focus on methods that will not stop this from happening. Lets ignore the fact that one of the killers was actually a psychiatrist. I'm sure a mental health exam would have caught that one for sure. Given that he worked for the military and they had no clue.

I find humor in the fact that you are attempting to educate me on a field in which I actually have both educational and occupational experience. Psychiatric evaluations and the testings that are included have means in which to catch people who attempt to "cheat." It's very simple to deny someone a permit when they have been caught attempting to cheat at one of the examinations. As to your list, do you really think it is appropriate to list assaults by military members as a valid reason to tighten gun control? Even if no private citizen had a firearm those still would have occurred as they are military members with military issued rifles. Yes, there have been more than a handful of crazy people who have went on killing sprees in the past FIVE decades (that you listed). Ready access to guns has nothing to do with it... If someone who is incredibly smart has a mental break, they will still plan meticulously to mass murder if that is their desire. Did Timothy Mcveigh need a firearm to kill 168 and injure over 800 on that fateful day in OKC? No.

A reevaluation of the state of mental health in the USA is needed.

[HannahElizabeth]

I can speak as a UK citizen, and confirm what Mishelle said. We do have our problems (knife crime being by far the biggest). But, with pretty much, a blanket ban on guns, shootings are extremely rare. There have been three in my (32 years) life time. Dunblane, Scotland in 1996 in which several school children and their teacher were shot dead. There was another a few years ago when a crazy guy went on a rampage around a rural village in Cumbria before shooting himself, and a much smaller incident involving just a few people (last year). Gun control makes the world of difference. It stands to reason; if you can go into just about any shop and buy a gun, people are going to get shot. I cannot for the life of me work out why America sticks to this right to bear arms. Until they wise up, they're going to keep on paying the price for this. It will happen again. And again.

[idontknow951]

The media headlines on this matter are beyond ridiculous. Saying he shot 'hundreds' of rounds.
I've read that his assault rifle jammed up before it could unload the full drum of 100, leaving him with at most 8 shots from a shotgun, and 2x 20 bullets with the hand guns. This is not hundreds.

The anti-gun nuts are having the time of their lives with completely inaccurate information given to them by the media.
Anyone who lives and deals with weapons on a daily basis, and has even half a brain, can see through the hyperbole that is 'hundreds'.

Anyway I read through the victim list, I honestly wept for the lives lost.

You do realize that all of the media reports are currently speculation, correct? Also, an AR-15 is capable of hitting 800 rounds per minute, so he could have unloaded that clip in ~10 seconds.

[idontknow951]

I'm also a British citizen, I just happen to live in the USA. I have seen both sides of the coin.
In the UK, my brother is halfway through an 8 year sentence for weapons related crime (namely having a gun). It doesn't matter if guns are made illegal, if they are wanted people will get their hands on them.



Around 250 per minute is about right, actually.

http://www.britannic...53341/M16-rifle

Where on earth does that say 250 per minute?

[idontknow951]

Do you own one?

Great reply. Instead of attacking the argument, you go for a straw man. Yes, I actually do own one. Do you?

[idontknow951]

Yes

Great! So what was the point of that?

[ElBastardoVerde]

I do hope this is an eye opener for our country. Shit like this keeps happening and we're not doing a damned thing about it but turning it into a pissing contest between anti-gun nuts and people who throw up the 2nd amendment argument.

It's kind of off topic, but a friend of my dad's is a gun collector/enthusiast and he is a ticking time bomb. He has a concealed weapons permit and ALWAYS has his pistol locked and loaded, and he's incredibly homophobic/hot tempered. I feel extremely uncomfortable being around him even though I know 100% he would never hurt me.

Our country as a whole needs to crack down hard cause things like this are becoming a regular occurrence.

[ElBastardoVerde]

What would be the point of carrying a weapon for protection if it isn't in a loaded and in a ready to engage position?

If you look at the context I used it in, you would see I was trying to make a point. He is a little bit mentally unstable and always has a loaded gun on him, those two combined never result in a good thing.

[WharfRat]

If you look at the context I used it in, you would see I was trying to make a point. He is a little bit mentally unstable and always has a loaded gun on him, those two combined never result in a good thing.

That's the ticket.

Making something illegal only creates a black market for that good. Take a look at all the cartel violence to our south and along the border that is ongoing. How is the war on drugs going? I see the rise of violent criminals as there is a major monetary motivation present for providing this black market trade.... It's the mental instability we should work on in this country... No trying to overreact and prevent any healthy, sane, law abiding citizen from being able to own a firearm.

[Waser Lave]

It's too late for effective gun control in America now anyway because there's just so many of them in circulation already. The best they can probably do now is to just improve the checks made on people before they can buy weapons.

[ElBastardoVerde]

Making something illegal only creates a black market for that good. Take a look at all the cartel violence to our south and along the border that is ongoing. How is the war on drugs going? I see the rise of violent criminals as there is a major monetary motivation present for providing this black market trade.... It's the mental instability we should work on in this country... No trying to overreact and prevent any healthy, sane, law abiding citizen from being able to own a firearm.

I'm fully aware that making something illegal generates a "demand" for it. I don't want guns to be illegal, I just want them to be controlled better than they are now. As for the Cartel war, I'm all too familiar with it, I live in El Paso, 5 minutes away from the most violent city in the world. It's been a while since there was a cartel related death in my city, which speaks a lot because of our proximity to the cartel. And I completely agree with you, if you aren't bat shit crazy then owning a gun shouldn't be a problem.

[iargue]

I find humor in the fact that you are attempting to educate me on a field in which I actually have both educational and occupational experience. Psychiatric evaluations and the testings that are included have means in which to catch people who attempt to "cheat." It's very simple to deny someone a permit when they have been caught attempting to cheat at one of the examinations. As to your list, do you really think it is appropriate to list assaults by military members as a valid reason to tighten gun control? Even if no private citizen had a firearm those still would have occurred as they are military members with military issued rifles. Yes, there have been more than a handful of crazy people who have went on killing sprees in the past FIVE decades (that you listed). Ready access to guns has nothing to do with it... If someone who is incredibly smart has a mental break, they will still plan meticulously to mass murder if that is their desire. Did Timothy Mcveigh need a firearm to kill 168 and injure over 800 on that fateful day in OKC? No.

A reevaluation of the state of mental health in the USA is needed.

I wish I could find humour in your careless disregard for human life, but sadly, I cannot.

What military issued weapon did I list? None of them used military issues weapons. I'm assuming your talking about the Fort Hood shooting, which shows your completely ignorance on mass shootings. He purchased 5 fully automatic weapons from a gun store, and purchased ammo for it, before he went on his shooting rampage. He wasn't issues these weapons from the military, he purchased them on his own. Just went into a store and asked for the most advanced firearm that they had. He should be included in the examples, because EVERYTHING you listed as a deterrent for him getting a gun would not have prevented him. He was a psychiatrist, who gave mental health exams on a daily basis.

It sickens me to the very core to you continuing to act like over 15 mass killings without 50 years is no big deal. Thats not even a single person's lifetime. (Except for those killed by the mass shootings of course).

But we can of course add plenty more to the list, since you seem to insist that its nothing big and should be ignored.

March 29, 2009: Robert Stewart, 45, shot and killed eight people at Pinelake Health and Rehab in Carthage, N.C. before a police officer shot him and ended the rampage.
• March 29, 2009: Devan Kalathat, 42, shot and killed his two children and three other relatives, then killed himself in an upscale neighborhood of Santa Clara, Calif. Kalathat's wife was critically injured.
•• Feb. 14, 2008: Former student Steven Kazmierczak, 27, opened fire in a lecture hall at Northern Illinois University in DeKalb, fatally shooting five students and wounding 18 others before committing suicide.
• Dec. 5, 2007: Robert A. Hawkins, 19, opened fire with a rifle at a Von Maur store in an Omaha, Neb., mall, killing eight people before taking his own life. Five more people were wounded, two critically.
• Oct. 2, 2006: Charles Carl Roberts IV, 32, shot to death five girls at West Nickel Mines Amish School in Pennsylvania, then killed himself.
• March 21, 2005: Student Jeffrey Weise, 16, killed nine people, including his grandfather and his grandfather's companion at home. Also included were five fellow students, a teacher and a security guard at Red Lake High School in Red Lake, Minn. He then killed himself. Seven students were wounded.
• March 12, 2005: Terry Ratzmann, 44, gunned down members of his congregation as they worshipped at the Brookfield Sheraton in Brookfield, Wisconsin, slaying seven and wounding four before killing himself.
• March 5, 2001: Charles "Andy" Williams, 15, killed two fellow students and wounded 13 others at Santana High School in Santee, Calif.
• Nov. 2, 1999: Copier repairman Byran Uyesugi, 40, fatally shoots seven people at Xerox Corp. in Honolulu. He is convicted and sentenced to life in prison.
• July 29, 1999: Former day trader Mark Barton, 44, killed nine people in shootings at two Atlanta brokerage offices, then killed himself.
• May 21, 1998: Two teenagers were killed and more than 20 people hurt when Kip Kinkel, 17, opened fire at a high school in Springfield, Ore., after killing his parents.
• March 24, 1998: Andrew Golden, 11, and Mitchell Johnson, 13, killed four girls and a teacher at a Jonesboro, Ark., middle school. Ten others were wounded in the shooting.

Don't you understand? I can keep adding more and more instances to this list. Continue to sit there and pretend like its nothing, continue to say that its no big deal and we should focus on other things. Continue to fail to address the issue and let people die. I've now listed over 20 occurrences in the past 50 years. Do I need to keep listing them? The list goes on and one, and it keeps going. In 2009 there were 4 mass shootings alone. This is long after the Brady Act was passed. It has done nothing at all to prevent these killings, as their frequency has actually increased.

In over 85% of the listed occurrences, they purchased weapons in mass before they went in their killing spree. Flagging people who purchase a large amount of firearms will significantly help reduce these killings.

I do not disagree that a mental health check is needed, and I do not disagree that we should have deeper checks on people before they can have a firearm. What I do disagree with is that is a solution that should be enacted alone. It will do nothing to prevent the mass slayings that have occurred in the past, and it wont do anything in the future.

[idontknow951]

It's too late for effective gun control in America now anyway because there's just so many of them in circulation already. The best they can probably do now is to just improve the checks made on people before they can buy weapons.

They have 535 monkeys in congress, what did you expect out of it? Hamlet?

[Waser Lave]

They have 535 monkeys in congress, what did you expect out of it? Hamlet?

I get the metaphor but I have no idea what you're trying to say by using it.

[HannahElizabeth]

I'm also a British citizen, I just happen to live in the USA. I have seen both sides of the coin.
In the UK, my brother is halfway through an 8 year sentence for weapons related crime (namely having a gun). It doesn't matter if guns are made illegal, if they are wanted people will get their hands on them.

I am not pretending that there are no guns in the UK, I clearly stated that there are (especially where I live - Belfast, in Northern Ireland, because of the political conflict). However, it's just not on the same scale as the US. No one here worries about mass shootings, it just doesn't happen (sparing the once every other blue moon events I highlighted in my other post). As someone else stated elsewhere on the thread, you can pretend that this is no big deal and bury your head in the sand. But people will continue to die en masse. If the US continues to do absolutely nothing, the rest of the world will simply wait with a grim sense of inevitability for the next mass killing in the USA.

Also, if I could reiterate that I agree with another poster above. It's not about banning anything. The issue is one of control. The US desperately needs gun control more than anything else. Aren't they given away free with Happy Meals at the minute, or something obscene like that?

[Sweeney]

HannahElizabeth, you likely can argue until you're blue in the face. The numbers of accidental shootings, the number of domestic killings, the cost to society from the violence of a culture of violence, none of that seems to matter. They want their little weapons, and seem to think that an AR-15 is a match for a hellfire missile. They might be worried that the 60,000 of us are going to attack the 300 million of them, we are considered the best warriors that North America ever produced but even the reddest of the red chiefs wouldn't like those odds. So, a thousand children are sacrificed to each year, least something truly bad happen. That many wives and husbands become floor stains, least something truly bad happen. High velocisty gunfire wounds flood our emergancy rooms, mostly uninsured, least something really bad happen. And I can get almost any type of legal or illegal weapon with a phone call, buy rounds for a restricted weapon. Aitayee, it will not change.

*lest