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A note about the Personal Messaging System


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#1 ShadowLink64

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 09:21 PM

Hi everyone,

 

I would like to clear up some misconceptions about our Personal Messaging (PM) system, since there has been some discussion recently about its purpose and to what degree of privacy it guarantees the sender and receiver.

 

Purpose, and who can access them:

The purpose of the PM system is to provide a way for users to directly message one another without having to make forum posts. The rules of the forum also apply to personal messages and are therefore enforced by the staff. Because of this, the PM system is not intended to be a secure private messaging medium between the sender and the recipient. IPS, the company behind our forum software, deliberately avoids the language "private message" because your messages can still be read by staff who can access them through the forum control panel and through the database.

 

Why staff can access PMs:

PM content enforcement is very important for online communities, and especially for ours when incidents of scamming are discovered or investigated. Often in rule violation reports dealing with harassment or spamming, a personal message is referenced in the report. Inevitably, personal messages that are not malicious could be read by someone in staff. There is no way for us to restrict access to only the malicious messages. The rule of thumb to follow is that a PM should be treated as if it is a forum-quality post, but directed at a specific user. Harassment, scamming, pornography, etc. will not be tolerated in PMs, much like how they are not tolerated on the forum. It boils down to the liability we have over user-generated content.

 

How really sensitive information (complaints about staff, personal matters) should be sent:

We understand that there are some messages (such as complaints about staff, very personal matters, etc.) that should be handled in a more discreet way or that you wish not be read by any staff. The personal messaging system is inappropriate for this purpose, and a medium like e-mail, support tickets or IRC private messages should be used instead. Administrators can always be contacted at [email protected] or through the support ticket system in IP.Nexus (only readable by admins). Otherwise, we cannot guarantee that your personal message will not be read by another member of staff. That level of restriction in the system just doesn't exist without completely blocking staff's access to PMs, and it's technically impossible to block administrators from accessing them.

 

What protects you from misuse of personal content:

Luckily, we have a hard rule in place (in most cases, enforceable by law) that prohibits staff members from mishandling your personal information if it does appear in a personal message. Our privacy policy prohibits us from divulging any sensitive personal information that we collect, other than to law enforcement if they request it via. a subpoena. This means that although your messages can technically be accessed by staff, this information is not to leave the level of staff (ie. be sold to third parties, be divulged to someone not staff, etc.).

 

Hopefully this has answered some questions. I'll leave the topic open to some discussions. :)



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    #2 Drakonid

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    Posted 18 February 2013 - 09:26 PM

    tldr: they are not messing with your shit.



    #3 Mishelle

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    Posted 18 February 2013 - 09:29 PM

    I understand that it's to prevent scamming but at the same time I'm sure people can usually tell from the title of a personal message whether or not it's trade related or personal related. I'm not going to name names but I've heard stories about mods admitting to reading people's personal messages that aren't trade related just to snoop. Is it logged into your system how many times someone goes into a certain user's PMs? 



    #4 ShadowLink64

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    Posted 18 February 2013 - 09:40 PM

    I understand that it's to prevent scamming but at the same time I'm sure people can usually tell from the title of a personal message whether or not it's trade related or personal related. I'm not going to name names but I've heard stories about mods admitting to reading people's personal messages that aren't trade related just to snoop. Is it logged into your system how many times someone goes into a certain user's PMs? 

    Not at the moment, but a system could be created to log views (I'd have to look if someone made one for our forum software, otherwise we'd have to do the edits ourselves).

     

    Staff should be using their personal message viewing capabilities with the intent of enforcing the rules of the forum. Even then, if they do happen to stumble upon personal content, they should have enough integrity to keep it to themselves. That's the level of responsibility we expect from our staff. If they were publicly talking about something that they read in a personal message, then that is considered a breach of trust and should really have consequences.

     

    I think the ultimate issue at hand is mistrust in the staff though. If people cannot trust the staff to do the right thing, we have a major problem.

     

    To be 100% safe, follow the rule of thumb: Don't write anything in a PM that you don't want a staff member to read.



    #5 redlion

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    Posted 18 February 2013 - 09:53 PM

    I understand that it's to prevent scamming but at the same time I'm sure people can usually tell from the title of a personal message whether or not it's trade related or personal related. I'm not going to name names but I've heard stories about mods admitting to reading people's personal messages that aren't trade related just to snoop. Is it logged into your system how many times someone goes into a certain user's PMs?

    If you're referring to a certain "contributor" I would estimate that he was the exception to the rule, and not the main.

    To my knowledge, there is no way to know how many times a staff member views a certain PM. There might be some hidden admin tool to determine that, but the PM viewer is like accessing a log. We don't show up because we weren't "invited" to the conversation, we're witnessing it after the fact.

    As to you point about titles, wouldn't the easiest way to avoid detection under such a method be to title the PM with something innocuous? With a title like "pets" or "NP" as many PMs are titled (as you can imagine) it's rather impossible to distinguish the legitimate traders from the scammers or dealers in stolen property from the title alone.

    All that being said, I think most of the staff have used the PM viewer rather sparingly. I don't relish reading about...well anything about you all's lives :p

    #6 Mishelle

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    Posted 18 February 2013 - 09:56 PM

    Not at the moment, but a system could be created to log views (I'd have to look if someone made one for our forum software, otherwise we'd have to do the edits ourselves).

     

    Staff should be using their personal message viewing capabilities with the intent of enforcing the rules of the forum. Even then, if they do happen to stumble upon personal content, they should have enough integrity to keep it to themselves. That's the level of responsibility we expect from our staff. If they were publicly talking about something that they read in a personal message, then that is considered a breach of trust and should really have consequences.

     

    I think the ultimate issue at hand is mistrust in the staff though. If people cannot trust the staff to do the right thing, we have a major problem.

     

    To be 100% safe, follow the rule of thumb: Don't write anything in a PM that you don't want a staff member to read.

     

    I've been here for years and I just now found out that it was possible for them to read them. It should say somewhere in the personal messenger that PMs can be monitored by mods. No one reads the privacy policy.



    #7 ShadowLink64

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    Posted 18 February 2013 - 09:59 PM

    I've been here for years and I just now found out that it was possible for them to read them. It should say somewhere in the personal messenger that PMs can be monitored by mods. No one reads the privacy policy.

    For some reason, I thought I made a news post about this earlier. When I went to go find it, it didn't exist, so I guess I planned on writing one but never did. :/

     

    A disclaimer would really make things clearer and I'll think about adding one right away.



    #8 redlion

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    Posted 18 February 2013 - 10:15 PM

    No one reads the privacy policy.

    That's sort of their own fault :/

    #9 Mishelle

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    Posted 18 February 2013 - 10:57 PM

    That's sort of their own fault :/

     

    Redileezy. Be real with me right now, do you read every time you update you itunes terms of service? Do you really?



    #10 ZERO

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    Posted 18 February 2013 - 11:15 PM

    You forgot to mention that ZERO can also read all pms. As well as talk in the third person. That is all.



    #11 Syntax

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    Posted 19 February 2013 - 10:59 AM

    Question: Can staff access PMs that have been deleted?



    #12 Waser Lave

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    Posted 19 February 2013 - 11:01 AM

    Question: Can staff access PMs that have been deleted?

    I think so, not entirely sure though. It wouldn't make much sense for it to be set up so somebody could do something wrong and then just delete all the evidence.

    #13 Guest_idonotexist_*

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    Posted 19 February 2013 - 12:06 PM

    I've been here for years and I just now found out that it was possible for them to read them. It should say somewhere in the personal messenger that PMs can be monitored by mods. No one reads the privacy policy.

     

    I just assumed it was common knowledge. O_o
    Just like neomails on Neopets, or PMs on ANY forum or any messages on any website that are sent between members.

    Moderators / Monitors can read them...



    #14 Drakonid

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    Posted 19 February 2013 - 12:10 PM

    I just assumed it was common knowledge. O_o
    Just like neomails on Neopets, or PMs on ANY forum or any messages on any website that are sent between members.

    Moderators / Monitors can read them...

    People tend to think that ignorance of some term makes it not applicable on them.



    #15 Yung

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    Posted 19 February 2013 - 12:28 PM

    People tend to think that ignorance of some term makes it not applicable on them.

     

    Exactly... now in accordance with rule 14.2.3 it is shave your back Tuesday, so better bust out that razor.



    #16 Mishelle

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    Posted 19 February 2013 - 01:06 PM

    People tend to think that ignorance of some term makes it not applicable on them.


    Well good thing no one here said that.

    #17 Drakonid

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    Posted 19 February 2013 - 01:19 PM

    Well good thing no one here said that.

    Well, good thing I never said anyone here did.



    #18 Guest_Kate_*

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    Posted 19 February 2013 - 01:25 PM

    Well, good thing I never said anyone here did.


    Well good thing she never said you said someone here did. 
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    #19 Dazz

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    Posted 19 February 2013 - 01:56 PM

    Meh i invite the staff to read my pms, i ain't got nowt to hide



    #20 Waser Lave

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    Posted 19 February 2013 - 02:08 PM

    Meh i invite the staff to read my pms, i ain't got nowt to hide

    Nobody PMs me either. :(

    #21 Dazz

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    Posted 19 February 2013 - 02:14 PM

    Nobody PMs me either. :(

     



    #22 TheMysteryDoctor

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    Posted 19 February 2013 - 02:17 PM

    Nobody PMs me either. :(

     

     

    not true i pmed you that one time to ask why something wasnt working

     

    couldnt find a solution tho :L



    #23 Dazz

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    Posted 19 February 2013 - 02:18 PM

    not true i pmed you that one time to ask why something wasnt working

     

    couldnt find a solution tho :L

     

    Have you tried viagra?



    #24 TheMysteryDoctor

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    Posted 19 February 2013 - 02:21 PM

    Have you tried viagra?

     

     

    No but i hear it works wonders for people who need help in that area.  I am assuming you have?



    #25 Guest_Kate_*

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    Posted 19 February 2013 - 02:41 PM

    No but i hear it works wonders for people who need help in that area.  I am assuming you have?


    Oh redchaos has no trouble in that area. Believe me. 
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