394 replies to this topic

[Mishelle]

Yes, what studies do you. I'd also like you to personally point out the comments which are racist and sexit as well before you make these brash statements.

 

Ok Chlorine gas I'll stand by my point that explosives and chemical warfare is relatively easy and inexpensive when you have articles like the anarchist's cookbook around. I'm just saying gun issues aren't the problem here, millions of people use them in the US without fault. It's the failing mental health services, societal problems and mainstream media that are.

 

I've repeated plenty of times that I'm not talking about all men and I've been met with "Well should I make generalizations about all women and all Black people" even though I've repeated time and time again that I'm not talking about all men and that has nothing to do with what I'm saying. 

 

 

 

"boys who had hypermasculine attitudes were three times more likely to have recently abused their female dating partners," McCauley said. "That's in the entire sample and it's a pretty strong association."

 

http://www.foxnews.c...ion-in-teenage/

 

 

 

JK: In your book Guys and Guns Amok, you link incidents of domestic terrorism like the 1995 Oklahoma City bombing to the phenomenon of school shootings. Can you explain the similarities (and differences) as you see them?

 

DK: In both school shootings and acts of domestic terrorism the perpetrators use guns and/or commit violence to resolve crises in masculinity and to constitute themselves as “tough guys,” real men. They also use the media to create media spectacles of terror and to constitute themselves as celebrities, hence the title of my book, “Guys and Guns Amok.”

To be sure, the problem with the Virginia Tech and other school shootings is not guns running amok, but people with guns killing other people. Thus the editorial board at Paradigm Press suggested the current title Guys and Guns Amok. This seemed appropriate as I wanted to argue that both an out-of-control gun culture and problematic constructions of masculinity were behind the killing and violence that I am engaging in this book. Moreover, the word “amok” has anthropological grounding with various accounts of lonely, frustrated and disturbed men who have suffered loss going beserk, running amok (a Malay word) and randomly killing people (see Steven Pinker How The Mind Works, 1997). Since “running amok” takes place in specific societal contexts, in my book I situate my analyses within the context of violence and guys and guns amok in contemporary U.S. society and culture.

 

http://www.uta.edu/h...atzkellner.html

 

It won't let me copy paste the important parts but they're decent reads: 

http://www.academia....e_United_States

http://uwf.edu/dearl...ermasculine.pdf

[Hawk]

Mishelle, please never ever cite Fox News again (It's from Reuters anyways, but Fox News in the URL instantly makes  it less credible in the eyes of many).  For that matter, be highly selective on any news organization or periodical you site.  Oddly enough, I'd trust Reuters.

 

I have tried to find the study that the Reuters author is reporting on, and I cannot in an albeit brief search.  On top of that, funny you mention making generalizations about "black people", because I am about to do something similar.

 

Without seeing the raw data from the study:

1. If football players and basketball players are statistically more likely to be sexually aggressive, answer the following:
   1. What position does the player play?  (Hint:  There are positions which are more likely to be played by an intelligent individual rather than someone troublesome.)
   2. Building off question #1, how is the student doing in school?
   3. What is the sexually aggressive individual's home like life?  (Happily married parents?  Divorced but amicable parents?  Single parent?  Parent's combined income? Neighborhood?)
   4. I'll fucking say it, what's the kid's race/ethnicity?
2. Why are different but still just as violent sports as football (on the field/in the arena) not as ruled by hypermasculine males that are more likely to gangbang female members of Neocodex?  (No consent, of course).  I'm lookin' at you:
   1. Hockey (Speculation: Money.  The cost of gear and ice time is prohibitive.  You're coming from a good household if you can play.)
   2. Lacrosse (Speculation:  No real major following outside of the hockey crowd.  Similar players playing the two.)
   3. Wrestling (Fuck it, I know it was included in the study, but I want answers to #1 included.  On top of it, just speculating here, I think they are a hell of a lot more disciplined just due to their sport of choice.  Making weight is a bitch.  The technique and strength required is not something a complete fuckup can be successful with.  On top of it, hypermasculine guys will not participate because "Wrestling is gay".)
   4. Rugby (Speculation:  Criminally underplayed in the United States so there were not enough teams for the study.  Also known as a ruffian's game played by gentlemen in comparison to [Rest-of-the-world] football which is a gentleman's game played by ruffians.)

But seriously, those football guys are douches.  Every last one of them.  They all think they're hot shit.  They'd never ever treat a woman with respect, nor stay within any bounds because they just want to put as much pressure as possible on a girl/woman in hopes that she'll put out. /s

[Mishelle]

Mishelle, please never ever cite Fox News again (It's from Reuters anyways, but Fox News in the URL instantly makes  it less credible in the eyes of many).  For that matter, be highly selective on any news organization or periodical you site.  Oddly enough, I'd trust Reuters.

 

I have tried to find the study that the Reuters author is reporting on, and I cannot in an albeit brief search.  On top of that, funny you mention making generalizations about "black people", because I am about to do something similar.

 

Without seeing the raw data from the study:

1. If football players and basketball players are statistically more likely to be sexually aggressive, answer the following:
   1. What position does the player play?  (Hint:  There are positions which are more likely to be played by an intelligent individual rather than someone troublesome.)
   2. Building off question #1, how is the student doing in school?
   3. What is the sexually aggressive individual's home like life?  (Happily married parents?  Divorced but amicable parents?  Single parent?  Parent's combined income? Neighborhood?)
   4. I'll fucking say it, what's the kid's race/ethnicity?
2. Why are different but still just as violent sports as football (on the field/in the arena) not as ruled by hypermasculine males that are more likely to gangbang female members of Neocodex?  (No consent, of course).  I'm lookin' at you:
   1. Hockey (Speculation: Money.  The cost of gear and ice time is prohibitive.  You're coming from a good household if you can play.)
   2. Lacrosse (Speculation:  No real major following outside of the hockey crowd.  Similar players playing the two.)
   3. Wrestling (Fuck it, I know it was included in the study, but I want answers to #1 included.  On top of it, just speculating here, I think they are a hell of a lot more disciplined just due to their sport of choice.  Making weight is a bitch.  The technique and strength required is not something a complete fuckup can be successful with.  On top of it, hypermasculine guys will not participate because "Wrestling is gay".)
   4. Rugby (Speculation:  Criminally underplayed in the United States so there were not enough teams for the study.  Also known as a ruffian's game played by gentlemen in comparison to [Rest-of-the-world] football which is a gentleman's game played by ruffians.)

But seriously, those football guys are douches.  Every last one of them.  They all think they're hot shit.  They'd never ever treat a woman with respect, nor stay within any bounds because they just want to put as much pressure as possible on a girl/woman in hopes that she'll put out. /s

 

Fox News cites the study, where it was published and the methodology of the study so if people are going to immediately dismiss it just because of where it's hosted then that's their issue.

 

And it's not just a football issue it's an issue in a lot of our sports Soccer, Baseball, Basketball, etc where these men have issues with assault, domestic violence, rape allegations and even murder.

Edited by Mishelle, 28 May 2014 - 05:35 PM.

[Hawk]

Fox News cites the study, where it was published and the methodology of the study so if people are going to immediately dismiss it just because of where it's hosted then that's their issue.

 

And it's not just a football issue it's an issue in a lot of our sports Soccer, Baseball, Basketball, etc where these men have issues with assault, domestic violence, rape allegations and even murder.

I get that Fox News cited that.  But until you give me a PDF of the study, or a link to the study, you're spinning your wheels.

 

Also, I addressed football and basketball.  Give me answers to this.  Here in America, we're innocent until proven guilty.  Prove to me that I am statistically more likely to be involved in some sort of heinous crime because I played football.  No credit is given without credible resources (Which includes actual links to studies).

 

Finally, did you read your article?  The only mention of baseball and soccer is:

 

 

 

The boys were asked about their participation in high school sports, including basketball, football, soccer, volleyball, wrestling, baseball, tennis, golf, swimming, cross-country or track and field.

 

Search all you want, but there is no other sentence containing the word.  (Hint: Ctrl + F, type "Base", after that yields one result type delete the word and type "Soccer").   They're not brought up again because they're not statistically different from the norm or they are below the norm, and that doesn't write headlines, get page views, and make money.

[Magical]

No I'm going to keep complaining and you're going to stop attempting to tell me what to do and gtfo unless you have something constructive to add to the discussion.

 

Yes that's why they're called microaggressions which happens to every oppressed group. That's what #yesallwomen did, women told their stories of abuse and harassment and they were made to feel like they deserved it or shouldn't be afraid of these types of microaggressions. Street harassment is not on the same level of a mass murder and no one is saying it is. This has merely been a catalyst to have the discussion. There are a lot of men online who hold problematic views on women and this guy actively shunned treatment for whatever issues he had to seek validation from these men. It's explained more in depth here. 

 

http://www.dailykos....Rights-Movement

 

And the thing is that whenever we have this conversation no matter what sets it off we're met with the same response "not all men" "you're overreacting" "you must be a man hating feminazi" and "now is not the time." 

 

Okay, feel free to complain, but we're going to rebut your ignorance. By the way, I've reported you for telling me to 'GTFO' - it's in the rules. Please try to be less hateful - it's a discussion, don't make it rude, and don't make it personal. K thx

[Mishelle]

Okay, feel free to complain, but we're going to rebut your ignorance. By the way, I've reported you for telling me to 'GTFO' - it's in the rules. Please try to be less hateful - it's a discussion, don't make it rude, and don't make it personal. K thx

 

Bye, Felicia. 

I get that Fox News cited that.  But until you give me a PDF of the study, or a link to the study, you're spinning your wheels.

 

Also, I addressed football and basketball.  Give me answers to this.  Here in America, we're innocent until proven guilty.  Prove to me that I am statistically more likely to be involved in some sort of heinous crime because I played football.  No credit is given without credible resources (Which includes actual links to studies).

 

Finally, did you read your article?  The only mention of baseball and soccer is:

 

 

Search all you want, but there is no other sentence containing the word.  (Hint: Ctrl + F, type "Base", after that yields one result type delete the word and type "Soccer").   They're not brought up again because they're not statistically different from the norm or they are below the norm, and that doesn't write headlines, get page views, and make money.

 

 

I don't think you fully read that, it's not that you're more likely to lead to violence because you play sports. You're more likely to be violent if you believe in hypermasculine attitudes that machismo is defined as a mans ability to hide his emotions, constantly be competitive, and sleep with lots of women. I'm not talking about the article I'm saying that this goes outside of high school sports and leaks into professional sports (Kobe Bryant, Ray Lewis and Aaron Hernandez just to name a few). 

 

http://www.jahonline...0003-2/abstract

 

 

There's the study so you can read the whole thing if you want but like a lot of scholarly journal articles you'll have to pay for it unless your university provides access for free.

Did you read the other articles I also posted?

Edited by Mishelle, 28 May 2014 - 06:33 PM.

[Magical]

However this is not just about women.

This is also about mental health as well.

His parents alerted police about his health, but the police when they visited saw nothing wrong. We need to have greater action on mental health, and address seriously concerns of others. Especially sine this guy had youtube videos, but it seems like the police ignored them, (that's pat of the reason the parents reported him) and just went by what they saw when they visited him. It may be possible that with his disease, he didn't show it all the time and one visit really isn't enough to make an evaluation of mental health on.

Mental heath needs to be taken more seriously, and we need to do more to help those who may be a danger to themselves and others. 

 

I completely agree that it's not taken seriously enough. It's a massive, almost underground, part of life that affects way more people than we can imagine.

 

@Mishelle

This person had a mental illness to which he felt entitled to have sex with women. He was not sane, he was a sociopath, thus it cannot be attributed to anti-feminism.

[Hawk]

Bye, Felicia. 

 

 

I don't think you fully read that, it's not that you're more likely to lead to violence because you play sports. You're more likely to be violent if you believe in hypermasculine attitudes that machismo is defined as a mans ability to hide his emotions, constantly be competitive, and sleep with lots of women. I'm not talking about the article I'm saying that this goes outside of high school sports and leaks into professional sports (Kobe Bryant, Ray Lewis and Aaron Hernandez just to name a few)

 

Did you read the other articles I also posted?

Ran into plenty of trouble, ran into plenty of trouble, and straight up gang-banger that the Patriots knew they were drafting.  I want a PDF to the source which your article was referencing.

[Magical]

Why do I constantly have to repeat myself... 

 

IN CASE YOU MISSED IT, we're using Elliot Roger as the catalyst for the discussion not as an example for all men. 

 

I think you made it pretty clear when you represented men to poisoned chocolate, that man are the catalyst for discussion here, not just Roger.

 

Again no one is treating men with disdain we are pointing out a very real issue of how hypermasculinity negatively effects people.

We are not bashing all men 

We are not bashing all men

WE are not bashing all men so stop trying to trot out this ridiculous straw man so I have to repeat myself again on every goddamn page. 

 

This is like me trying to explain how institutionalized poverty causes some Black people to commit robberies and how we need to address this issue but people constantly retorting with "but wait why are you attacking all Black people?" 

 

I also love the constant comparisons to this very real issue of hypermasculinity and how dangerous it is (I have studies if you'd like to read them) with racist and sexist comments. Good job guys. 

 

If you think making your text large and bold is going to get your 'point' across, it's not.

[Elindoril]

@Magical why are you quoting each of her posts individually instead of just combining all of it into a single post?

[Magical]

Probably. I'll add that almost all of my own experience with mental health professionals has been truly tremendous. Slow to actually get (cheers NHS referrals), but tremendous once I got there. I can categorically state that without a couple of really great people, I would not be living the life I am today.

 

I full on support you here. My life has definitely been changing since I sought out help.

@Magical why are you quoting each of her posts individually instead of just combining all of it into a single post?

 

I have no idea how to do that

Bye, Felicia. 

 

 

I don't think you fully read that, it's not that you're more likely to lead to violence because you play sports. You're more likely to be violent if you believe in hypermasculine attitudes that machismo is defined as a mans ability to hide his emotions, constantly be competitive, and sleep with lots of women. I'm not talking about the article I'm saying that this goes outside of high school sports and leaks into professional sports (Kobe Bryant, Ray Lewis and Aaron Hernandez just to name a few). 

 

http://www.jahonline...0003-2/abstract

 

 

There's the study so you can read the whole thing if you want but like a lot of scholarly journal articles you'll have to pay for it unless your university provides access for free.

Did you read the other articles I also posted?

 

I think we've now trespassed the bounds of the imbecilic.

 

Btw, Felicia?

Edited by Magical, 28 May 2014 - 06:44 PM.

[Mishelle]

Ran into plenty of trouble, ran into plenty of trouble, and straight up gang-banger that the Patriots knew they were drafting.  I want a PDF to the source which your article was referencing.

 

I just gave you a link to it I can access the pdf through my edu account but I don't think everyone can unless they have their own account.

[Elindoril]

I have no idea how to do that

There's the multi-quote button beside the normal quote button, or you could open posts in new windows and copy the quote text into a separate reply box.

[Hawk]

Bye, Felicia. 

 

 

I don't think you fully read that, it's not that you're more likely to lead to violence because you play sports. You're more likely to be violent if you believe in hypermasculine attitudes that machismo is defined as a mans ability to hide his emotions, constantly be competitive, and sleep with lots of women. I'm not talking about the article I'm saying that this goes outside of high school sports and leaks into professional sports (Kobe Bryant, Ray Lewis and Aaron Hernandez just to name a few). 

 

http://www.jahonline...0003-2/abstract

 

 

There's the study so you can read the whole thing if you want but like a lot of scholarly journal articles you'll have to pay for it unless your university provides access for free.

Did you read the other articles I also posted?

Thanks for a link to that article.  Unfortunately I have graduated, so unless I can retroactively get access to these journals (unlikely), I'm dependent on you to follow through and gain access to the real data.  

 

From the UTA link:

 

 

 The crisis erupts in outbreaks of violence and societal murder, as men act out rage, which takes extremely violent forms such as political assassinations, serial and mass murders, and school and workplace shootings -– all exhibiting guys and guns amok. The crisis in masculinity is grounded in deteriorating socio-economic possibilities for men and is aggravated by our current economic crisis.

 

I'm beginning to feel like I'm not completely off the reservation....  Onwards through that article....

 

 

 

So far, research suggests that black and Latino shootings tend to be specific-target incidents that are related to particular issues or personal conflicts. The

 

Another point I have been trying to prod...

 

 

 

. To be sure, they are in part a product of guys and guns amok and the escalation of gun ownership, the crisis in masculinity, the rise in societal and global violence, and a media which portrays violence as a solution to personal, political and social problems, and which create media spectacles that make celebrities out of school shooters and terrorists..

What a misandrist. 

 

The link to acedemia.edu is invalid (IMO) because of the low sample size and too many feelings rather than raw data.

 

The UW-River Falls link is invalid for similar reasons.  Feelings, rather than statistics.

[Mishelle]

Thanks for a link to that article.  Unfortunately I have graduated, so unless I can retroactively get access to these journals (unlikely), I'm dependent on you to follow through and gain access to the real data.  

 

From the UTA link:

 

I'm beginning to feel like I'm not completely off the reservation....  Onwards through that article....

 

 

Another point I have been trying to prod...

 

What a misandrist. 

 

The link to acedemia.edu is invalid (IMO) because of the low sample size and too many feelings rather than raw data.

 

The UW-River Falls link is invalid for similar reasons.  Feelings, rather than statistics.

 

The majority of mass shooters are white, male, and upper/middle class. Yes they have mental issues but these only compound their feelings of isolation rather than is the cause of what they do. Men are raised in a culture where they're made to feel like they can't express their emotions because expressing emotions is a feminine trait when it's not, it's a human trait. And when this just piles on top of each other they snap. It's hard to get men to even go to a doctor let alone go to a psychologist because we live in a society that tells men that they must be impervious to any kind of ailment or illness.

[Magical]

There's the multi-quote button beside the normal quote button, or you could open posts in new windows and copy the quote text into a separate reply box.

 

Thank yuu!! My life has now changed!

[Hawk]

The majority of mass shooters are white, male, and upper/middle class. Yes they have mental issues but these only compound their feelings of isolation rather than is the cause of what they do. Men are raised in a culture where they're made to feel like they can't express their emotions because expressing emotions is a feminine trait when it's not, it's a human trait. And when this just piles on top of each other they snap. It's hard to get men to even go to a doctor let alone go to a psychologist because we live in a society that tells men that they must be impervious to any kind of ailment or illness.

Which article did I miss that in, and what are the statistics?

 

I'm going to ask you the same damn thing until you give me raw data and links (What to search would help as well).

[Magical]

The majority of mass shooters are white, male, and upper/middle class. Yes they have mental issues but these only compound their feelings of isolation rather than is the cause of what they do. Men are raised in a culture where they're made to feel like they can't express their emotions because expressing emotions is a feminine trait when it's not, it's a human trait. And when this just piles on top of each other they snap. It's hard to get men to even go to a doctor let alone go to a psychologist because we live in a society that tells men that they must be impervious to any kind of ailment or illness.

 

Plucking statements from the sky? Please don't make such generalisations. Not all men are cunts, not all women are either. But some men are and some women are too.

[Mishelle]

Which article did I miss that in, and what are the statistics?

 

I'm going to ask you the same damn thing until you give me raw data and links (What to search would help as well).

 

It won't let me copy paste I'm assuming because they don't want people to do that with their articles. If you want to see the raw data you can pay the money and read it or you can read the article which is a direct copy paste from the Reuters article. 

 

And if you do a quick google search you can confirm my claims that the majority of mass shooters are white middle/upper class males. 

[Hawk]

It won't let me copy paste I'm assuming because they don't want people to do that with their articles. If you want to see the raw data you can pay the money and read it or you can read the article which is a direct copy paste from the Reuters article. 

 

And if you do a quick google search you can confirm my claims that the majority of mass shooters are white middle/upper class males. 

 

Mass shooters, maybe.  But homicides...  <30 seconds on google yielded:

 

 

U.S. public health statistics on homicide as a cause of death indicate that this is a leading cause of death for black males (Anderson, Kochanek, and Murphy). About 40 percent of all homicide victims are black males though black males make up about 6 or 7 percent of the U.S. population (U.S. Bureau of the Census). Although the 40 percent figure has fluctuated some since 1960, the victimization rate for black males has been remarkably consistent for forty years—ranging from 33 to 49 percent. Forty percent was also the figure provided by the Uniform Crime Reports' Supplementary Homicide reports for 1995 (Snyder and Finnegan).

The Federal Bureau of Investigation's Supplementary Homicide Reports (SHR) also suggest that black offenders are responsible for most homicides with black victims. They suggest that 48 to 50 percent of offenders in homicide cases are black males and that most homicides are intraracial (Federal Bureau of Investigation).

[Source]

 

That means more whiteys kill whiteys, blacks kill blacks, and whatever other group you want versus their same racial group.  Black males overrepresenting in an intraracial setup means........................?

[Grimley]

Every place does have it's crazies, but few arm them.

 

Crazies will always find a way to arm themselves, regardless of what type of weapon, and regardless of what type of laws are in place. I find it mystifying how many homicides (especially with guns) take place daily in Chicago, for example...Emanuel can pile on more and more laws, but I don't think the criminal/murderer types are going to be all like, "Well shucks, I guess I can't get a gun now".

[Hawk]

Crazies will always find a way to arm themselves, regardless of what type of weapon, and regardless of what type of laws are in place. I find it mystifying how many homicides (especially with guns) take place daily in Chicago, for example...Emanuel can pile on more and more laws, but I don't think the criminal/murderer types are going to be all like, "Well shucks, I guess I can't get a gun now".

@Hawk @ Frizzle Holy shit a woman agreed with you, you might be right.  @Dan you're chill and right too, get in the club.

[Mishelle]

Mass shooters, maybe.  But homicides...  <30 seconds on google yielded:

 

 

That means more whiteys kill whiteys, blacks kill blacks, and whatever other group you want versus their same racial group.  Black males overrepresenting in an intraracial setup means........................?

 

Yes that's why I said mass shooters and not homicides.

 

Black males are over represented in a lot of crime which can be directly linked to poverty. However, mass shootings aren't linked to poverty and a lot of the perpetrators of mass shootings tend to be well off. I wonder what that means....

[Sweeney]

I have to say, I don't understand the argument behind "crazy people will always be able to get weapons, so they may as well be freely available".

Drug addicts will always find ways to get cocaine, too, but you can't pick up a baggie in any Pawn Shop in the country...

[Nymh]

I feel the need to make a baking a cake analogy. I love cake baking analogies.