394 replies to this topic

[Waser Lave]

Men were only considered targets if they got in the way to what he wanted which was WOMEN'S BODIES.

 

His roommates got in the way of women's bodies? They definitely didn't look the kind...

[Mishelle]

His roommates got in the way of women's bodies? They definitely didn't look the kind...

In his manifesto he stated that he wanted to kill his roommates to get them out of the way so he could turn his apartment into a torture chamber for women. 

Edited by Mishelle, 28 May 2014 - 07:22 AM.

[Magical]

 

Maybe when 1 in 4 women stop being the victims of attempted and complete sexual assaults we'll stop talking about misogyny.

 

Men were only considered targets if they got in the way to what he wanted which was WOMEN'S BODIES. 

Seriously guys what's wrong with talking about this? What negative aspects come from talking about the issue that women's face that you guys are trying to hard to stop this conversation?

 

Please don't stop talking about misogyny. But only when it's quite relevant.

 

And, yes, he wanted women's bodies - as much as any heterosexual man. He couldn't get any, so his mental disease 'made' him massacre innocent people. The end.

 

It's not relevant to this example. He was sick. Period.

 

If there are any other feminist issues you have, then feel free to take them to the 'feminism' thread.

[Waser Lave]

In his manifesto he stated that he wanted to kill his roommates to get them out of the way so he could turn his apartment into a torture chamber for women. 

 

Yeah, he was definitely crazy... I think I read somewhere too that his roommates were actually planning to move out pretty soon before it happened. I don't think he accurately reflects the very real problem of misogyny, harassment and abuse which many women face though.

[Mishelle]

Please don't stop talking about misogyny. But only when it's quite relevant.

 

And, yes, he wanted women's bodies - as much as any heterosexual man. He couldn't get any, so his mental disease 'made' him massacre innocent people. The end.

 

It's not relevant to this example. He was sick. Period.

 

If there are any other feminist issues you have, then feel free to take them to the 'feminism' thread.

 

Nah I think I'll continue on with my feminist issues here. 

 

 

Yeah, he was definitely crazy... I think I read somewhere too that his roommates were actually planning to move out pretty soon before it happened.   I don't think he accurately reflects the very real problem of misogyny, harassment and abuse which many women face though.

 

No one is saying that all men are like him, if all men were like him there would be a massacre. What we're saying is that his thoughts are on the extreme end of a pretty common thought process that women are the "Gatekeepers" of sex and the mess that comes along with that kind of thinking. And that a lot of these mass shooters target women.

 

http://www.latimes.c...0527-story.html

http://en.wikipedia....wnship_shooting

http://criminalminds.../George_Hennard

http://en.wikipedia...._Beach_shooting

Edited by Mishelle, 28 May 2014 - 07:49 AM.

[Waser Lave]

No one is saying that all men are like him, if all men were like him there would be a massacre. What we're saying is that his thoughts are on the extreme end of a pretty common thought process that women are the "Gatekeepers" of sex and the mess that comes along with that kind of thinking. And that a lot of these mass shooters target women.

 

I get that (although some of the posts do make it sound that way), I just think holding up a clear nut job and extreme outlier as a poster boy for a very real issue doesn't really advance the debate. It's good that it's brought attention to the issue but apart from that I don't think it's particularly helpful or representative.

[Mishelle]

I get that (although some of the posts do make it sound that way), I just think holding up a clear nut job and extreme outlier as a poster boy for a very real issue doesn't really advance the debate. It's good that it's brought attention to the issue but apart from that I don't think it's particularly helpful or representative.

 

When it comes to mass shootings he's not really an outlier. It's not just about mental health and access to guns it's also an issue of hypermasculinity which is apparent in his manifesto. The link between mass murders and hypermasculinity is captured perfectly in this journal entry. 

 

http://www.academia....e_United_States

Edited by Mishelle, 28 May 2014 - 08:03 AM.

[Dan]

Nah I think I'll continue on with my feminist issues here. 

 

 

 

No one is saying that all men are like him, if all men were like him there would be a massacre. What we're saying is that his thoughts are on the extreme end of a pretty common thought process that women are the "Gatekeepers" of sex and the mess that comes along with that kind of thinking. And that a lot of these mass shooters target women.

 

http://www.latimes.c...0527-story.html

http://en.wikipedia....wnship_shooting

http://criminalminds.../George_Hennard

http://en.wikipedia...._Beach_shooting

 

No, nobody has said that all men are like him, but @Turnip plainly said that "many" are. And that "many" would do the same given the opportunity. 

(which is utter bullshit - because if that was the case we'd have a lot more of these serial killers running around)

 

You keep making these insane comments like this "gatekeepers of sex" point. You are making yourself look like someone who ignores what everyone else is saying and simply goes with whatever you can scrounge to support your weak argument. 

 

I get that (although some of the posts do make it sound that way), I just think holding up a clear nut job and extreme outlier as a poster boy for a very real issue doesn't really advance the debate. It's good that it's brought attention to the issue but apart from that I don't think it's particularly helpful or representative.

 

The damage is already done. This man will be made a martyr of feminism and used in any and every argument. He will be used to make men feel shame simply for being a man and therefore associated.

 

Don't you feminists see that this attention and poster-boy mentality is probably exactly what he wanted? 

[Waser Lave]

When it comes to mass shootings he's not really an outlier. It's not just about mental health and access to guns it's also an issue of hypermasculinity which is apparent in his manifesto. The link between mass murders and hypermasculinity is captured perfectly in this journal entry. 

 

http://www.academia....e_United_States

 

When it comes to misogyny and harassment he is a definite outlier though. The vast majority of it occurs on a much lower, but still serious, level (whether physically or emotionally) and usually behind closed doors. I personally think it would be more helpful to focus on events which are actually representative of the abuse and harassment which millions of women (and men) face on a daily basis in order to make it less socially acceptable and ultimately 'unfashionable' (I don't really like using this word in this context but in some regards, mainly on the internet, it is seen as fashionable to make certain types of comments).

[Magical]

Then don't complain @Mishelle

[Mishelle]

Then don't complain @Mishelle

 

No I'm going to keep complaining and you're going to stop attempting to tell me what to do and gtfo unless you have something constructive to add to the discussion.

When it comes to misogyny and harassment he is a definite outlier though. The vast majority of it occurs on a much lower, but still serious, level (whether physically or emotionally) and usually behind closed doors. I personally think it would be more helpful to focus on events which are actually representative of the abuse and harassment which millions of women (and men) face on a daily basis in order to make it less socially acceptable and ultimately 'unfashionable' (I don't really like using this word in this context but in some regards, mainly on the internet, it is seen as fashionable to make certain types of comments).

 

Yes that's why they're called microaggressions which happens to every oppressed group. That's what #yesallwomen did, women told their stories of abuse and harassment and they were made to feel like they deserved it or shouldn't be afraid of these types of microaggressions. Street harassment is not on the same level of a mass murder and no one is saying it is. This has merely been a catalyst to have the discussion. There are a lot of men online who hold problematic views on women and this guy actively shunned treatment for whatever issues he had to seek validation from these men. It's explained more in depth here. 

 

http://www.dailykos....Rights-Movement

 

And the thing is that whenever we have this conversation no matter what sets it off we're met with the same response "not all men" "you're overreacting" "you must be a man hating feminazi" and "now is not the time." 

Edited by Mishelle, 28 May 2014 - 08:16 AM.

[Futurama]

Did someone say fuck @Adam?

[KaibaSama]

I'll try and add to this discussion a bit.

This man was obviously sick, yes. He did have some issues with the way he thought he "deserved" a woman to have sex with. (I use the term "deserved" loosely). Yes, we should be having a discussion about how women are thought of with this, because this man had issues with the way he thought about women and that needs to be addressed because he used that thinking as part of a reason for his rampage. 

 

However this is not just about women.

This is also about mental health as well.

His parents alerted police about his health, but the police when they visited saw nothing wrong. We need to have greater action on mental health, and address seriously concerns of others. Especially sine this guy had youtube videos, but it seems like the police ignored them, (that's pat of the reason the parents reported him) and just went by what they saw when they visited him. It may be possible that with his disease, he didn't show it all the time and one visit really isn't enough to make an evaluation of mental health on.

Mental heath needs to be taken more seriously, and we need to do more to help those who may be a danger to themselves and others. 

Edited by Satsuki, 28 May 2014 - 08:25 AM.

[Mishelle]

I'll try and add to this discussion, and I'll touch on some points that have been made, but others that seem to have been forgotten.

This man was obviously sick, yes. He did have some issues with the way he thought he "deserved" a woman to have sex with. (I use the term "deserved" loosely). Yes, we should be having a discussion about how women are thought of with this, because this man had issues with the way he thought about women.

This is also about mental health as well, we seem to have gotten away from that point. His parents alerted police about his health, but the police when they visited saw nothing wrong. We need to have greater action on mental health, and address seriously concerns of others. Especially sine this guy had youtube videos, but it seems like the police ignored them, (that's a reason the parents reported him) and just went by what they saw when they visited him.

Mental heath needs to be taken more seriously, and we need to do more to help those who may be a danger to themselves and others. 

 

His parents did take his mental health very seriously but he refused treatment and didn't take any of the medication prescribed to him. The cops can't search his home without probable cause or a search warrant. They didn't have any proof that he was planning this which is why people are currently lobbying for a database that will track people who buy guns. We have a system that will alert the police if a person tries to buy too much Sudafed but we don't have a system to track guns and ammunition and every time we try to bring this issue to the government the NRA flexes their dick and shuts the conversation down. It's freaking insane. 

[Waser Lave]

Yes that's why they're called microaggressions which happens to every oppressed group. That's what #yesallwomen did, women told their stories of abuse and harassment and they were made to feel like they deserved it or shouldn't be afraid of these types of microaggressions. Street harassment is not on the same level of a mass murder and no one is saying it is. This has merely been a catalyst to have the discussion. There are a lot of men online who hold problematic views on women and this guy actively shunned treatment for whatever issues he had to seek validation from these men. It's explained more in depth here. 

 

http://www.dailykos....Rights-Movement

 

And the thing is that whenever we have this conversation no matter what sets it off we're met with the same response "not all men" "you're overreacting" "you must be a man hating feminazi" and "now is not the time." 

 

That kind of abuse is what the focus of the discussion should be in my opinion since it represents the greatest opportunity to make the biggest difference to people's lives. Focusing on this one crazy guy and what he did just distracts from it and probably turns a lot of people off from engaging with it even if they'd otherwise be supportive of the campaign. Ultimately it's that which leads to the "not all men", "you're overreacting" etc reaction.

[Mishelle]

That kind of abuse is what the focus of the discussion should be in my opinion since it represents the greatest opportunity to make the biggest difference to people's lives. Focusing on this one crazy guy and what he did just distracts from it and probably turns a lot of people off from engaging with it even if they'd otherwise be supportive of the campaign. Ultimately it's that which leads to the "not all men", "you're overreacting" etc reaction.

 

This is why I love you Waser. I'm not into interspecies stuff but for you I'd make the exception.

[Dan]

This is why I love you Waser. I'm not into interspecies stuff but for you I'd make the exception.

 

In case you missed it, he was saying that you should be using those 'microaggressions' as examples of your oppression, and not Elliot Rodger, who was just a mentally ill serial killer who was not indicative of all (or even most) of the male population.

[Mishelle]

In case you missed it, he was saying that you should be using those 'microaggressions' as examples of your oppression, and not Elliot Rodger, who was just a mentally ill serial killer who was not indicative of all (or even most) of the male population.

 

Why do I constantly have to repeat myself... 

 

IN CASE YOU MISSED IT, we're using Elliot Roger as the catalyst for the discussion not as an example for all men. 

Edited by Mishelle, 28 May 2014 - 08:46 AM.

[Nymh]

Spoiler

Personally I've wondered if I myself am a sociopath. I share many characteristics with that label - I care little for individuals, find it hard to make social connections, and I don't care about issues (like this case, actually) that society expresses interest in.

But true sociopaths don't care about other people (supreme egoism) and I care very much about people in the aggregate. While I find it hard to make social connections, doing so is possible and rewarding for me. And as for hot button issues like these, I generally care about issues that have a broader impact. I certainly care more about Sandy Hook than O.J. Simpson, for instance.

100% ditto.
 

Well, sort of. They said he was receiving professional help in the same breath that they said he had Asperger's, but they didn't specify what said help was for. I don't want to assume anything about mental health professionals. From personal experience, a lot of them are full of shit and just want you to buy their books.

 
I want to take a little time to address the issue of mental health advocacy that tends to come up during the aftermath of these types of incidents. I, like you, have had some shitty experiences with mental health professionals. (Deleted long personal story here about my crappy experiences with mental health "professionals.") Growing up watching television and movies I always had a glorified idea of the relationship that a mentally ill person has with their therapist. It always seemed so deep and personal. But from what I have experienced, it's nothing like that at all. It's cold and clinical and you are put on the defensive to justify why you are there. I am a sperg - there is only one clinic in my state that treats Asperger's, and it's three hours away. Wat do? People are made to feel that when they decide they "want" help, they need to go well out of their way to get it and they need to be convincing enough to be deemed worthy of it.

At the same time, I tend to feel slightly disappointed when people say that the murderer was mentally ill and "we will never really know" as if that explains everything. If someone is convicted enough in their beliefs, they have justification for whatever action or crime they wish to commit in the name of that belief. Suicide bombers come to mind. We don't blame mental illness for people loading themselves down with C4 and swan diving into an embassy. At that point we blame it on their culture and what is being shown to them by their media. I'm not sure the issues are so different.
 

I'm really starting to think life is just very different in the UK. That quote in the Time article about regularly finding girls who had been roofie'd and left passed out...can you imagine that just being an accepted way of life at a university here? There would be outrage and people calling for someone's head. I've spent basically my whole life feeling respected and cherished by the men I know, have never thought that anyone felt entitled to my body, I've never felt scared just for being a woman, I work for equal pay in equal conditions.......it's not entirely equal ops because yeah, I have on occasion probably benefited from being a woman but I really just can't think of occasions where I've really suffered or been put down or felt victimised or scared by a man, because I'm a woman.

Maybe we should move in with you instead.

[Ali]

Maybe we should move in with you instead.

Probably. I'll add that almost all of my own experience with mental health professionals has been truly tremendous. Slow to actually get (cheers NHS referrals), but tremendous once I got there. I can categorically state that without a couple of really great people, I would not be living the life I am today.

[Trichomes]

Not exactly on topic, but I'd like to share my experience with mental health professionals.

 

I've been in and out of therapy for most of my teenage/adult life for a variety of reasons, and I've always found it incredibly difficult to find someone I feel comfortable with, who is willing to listen to me without passing judgement, and guide me through my problems without expecting me to figure things out for myself. I learned early on that I could easily manipulate my health care professionals with what little knowledge of psychology I have, which defeats the purpose of seeking help in the first place. I guess I always expected a "professional" with years of training to be able to see through my bullshit and tell when I'm withholding information or feelings, but that's rarely the case, and it makes me uncomfortable.

 

I've only had one therapist who I felt any sort of connection with, and while I feel my time with her was helpful, we really only scratched the surface. Before I stopped seeing her, she began working with high-risk underprivileged families, which I think she wanted to be the focus of her career. She actually forgot about a few of my appointments (which were either weekly or bi-weekly), and when my sister had a mental health emergency (she was also her patient), we could not get in touch with her. I felt neglected, and it was particularly damaging because she was someone I counted on. I realize one counselor's unprofessional behavior is not a reflection of all mental health care professionals, but this is the one person out of a bunch that I've seen who I made progress with, and I feel like she abandoned me.

 

I've seen one other therapist since then, who I couldn't really open up to. Now I'm back where I started and more reluctant than ever to seek professional help even though I could really use it. It's hard when your options are so limited and you already have a hard time bonding with people and trusting them with your most personal thoughts. I hate having to start the process from the beginning over and over again.

 

At the same time, I tend to feel slightly disappointed when people say that the murderer was mentally ill and "we will never really know" as if that explains everything. If someone is convicted enough in their beliefs, they have justification for whatever action or crime they wish to commit in the name of that belief. Suicide bombers come to mind. We don't blame mental illness for people loading themselves down with C4 and swan diving into an embassy. At that point we blame it on their culture and what is being shown to them by their media. I'm not sure the issues are so different.

 

I guess it comes down to there being different degrees of mental illness. We need to draw the line between 'mentally ill' and 'criminally insane' somewhere, but that line is not always clear cut. In a lot of cases it probably is a combination of mental instability and societal influences that drive these people to do what they do, so it's unfair to place the blame on one or the other.

[Frizzle]

Feminism is a political movement aiming for equality of the sexes through the empowerment of women to the same status of men. Egalitarianism is not a political movement, it is a philosophy and I'm tired of people who don't know about either trying to pit them against each other.

As for the rest of this thread, I think it's funny that women are in here telling their stories and all they get in return is:

95% of all street robberies in 2006-2007 were committed by black youths. Should I treat all black youths with the same disdain as people are treating men in here, or should we use common sense?

This was in London btw, I have no idea but about other cities but that's another topic.

This is something I wanted to delve into, but I don't want to end up on any lists. I would even argue that the routes you suggested are more of a danger to the public than a shooting spree. The chemical attacks have the potential to cause massive amounts of damage before anyone can diagnose the problem (See Tokyo subway and sarin gas), and bombs have proven themselves very deadly over time; It's quite clearly effective, seeing as that is an avenue activists (terrorists) regularly pursue and (depending on locale/choices in life - Obviously a suicide bomber isn't going to be as successful) continue living afterwards. A shootout seems to nearly always end as suicide-by-cop, with multiple casualties, but it could have been worse.



This is a fucked up conversation to be having on a forum like this.

That was actually my point , there are enough resources out there (say mixing bleach and ammonia to create mustard gas) that guns aren't the issues. People's mental illnesses and determination are a bigger priority rather than other peoples civil liberties.

And my other friend, also male, came up with this analogy.

No he didn't, that's an old quote. Plus it's bullshit. It's equating that at least 10% of men are rapists which is bullshit.

[Mishelle]

95% of all street robberies in 2006-2007 were committed by black youths. Should I treat all black youths with the same disdain as people are treating men in here, or should we use common sense?

This was in London btw, I have no idea but about other cities but that's another topic.
That was actually my point , there are enough resources out there (say mixing bleach and ammonia to create mustard gas) that guns aren't the issues. People's mental illnesses and determination are a bigger priority rather than other peoples civil liberties.

No he didn't, that's an old quote. Plus it's bullshit. It's equating that at least 10% of men are rapists which is bullshit.

Again no one is treating men with disdain we are pointing out a very real issue of how hypermasculinity negatively effects people.

We are not bashing all men 

We are not bashing all men

WE are not bashing all men so stop trying to trot out this ridiculous straw man so I have to repeat myself again on every goddamn page. 

 

This is like me trying to explain how institutionalized poverty causes some Black people to commit robberies and how we need to address this issue but people constantly retorting with "but wait why are you attacking all Black people?" 

 

I also love the constant comparisons to this very real issue of hypermasculinity and how dangerous it is (I have studies if you'd like to read them) with racist and sexist comments. Good job guys. 

Edited by Mishelle, 28 May 2014 - 01:06 PM.

[Tetiel]

That was actually my point , there are enough resources out there (say mixing bleach and ammonia to create mustard gas) that guns aren't the issues. People's mental illnesses and determination are a bigger priority rather than other peoples civil liberties.

That's not mustard gas. All the precursors to mustard gas are heavily controlled due to the geneva convention. Now your previous comment about homemade mustard gas makes sense makes sense because I even spent time the other day looking into how exactly to buy phosphene or sulphur dichloride just to see how to do it. The precursors are not only difficult to obtain, but are also incredibly dangerous to store. One leak and you're dead, yourself.

 

Ammonia and Bleach, instead is chlorine gas which is produced by bleach and ammonia - Cl₂. Chlorine, while extremely reactive, is nowhere near as dangerous as mustard gas. There were instances of homemade bombs being used in the recent Iraqi war. You can see some of this history here:

http://en.wikipedia....ombings_in_Iraq

The principal behind it is that Cl₂+2H₂O -> O₂+2HCl (hydrogen chloride gas which turns into hydrochloric acid when it touches water)

 

While you'd injure people, it's actually somewhat difficult to kill with it because to even get pure chlorine, the chemistry needs to be just right. Too much ammonia, you get hydrazine, too much bleach, you get chloramine. Yes, it's toxic, but unless you have high quantities and actually know what you're doing, it's difficult to actually use as a deadly weapon. I will stand by my statement that while possible, it's damned difficult for a lone wolf to kill mass amounts of people with science unless you're Walter White. And god help us all if you are.

[Frizzle]

 

 

I also love the constant comparisons to this very real issue of hypermasculinity and how dangerous it is (I have studies if you'd like to read them) with racist and sexist comments. Good job guys. 

Yes, what studies do you. I'd also like you to personally point out the comments which are racist and sexit as well before you make these brash statements.

>snip<

 

Ok Chlorine gas I'll stand by my point that explosives and chemical warfare is relatively easy and inexpensive when you have articles like the anarchist's cookbook around. I'm just saying gun issues aren't the problem here, millions of people use them in the US without fault. It's the failing mental health services, societal problems and mainstream media that are.