87 replies to this topic

[Frizzle]

"Only 50%"

Only a 50/50 chance of ruining someone's life. Just adopt. You'd do the same with a cat or dog by getting one from a shelter, why not the same for a child?

Smacks of selfishness and one of the reasons I got a vasectomy.

[Coops]

"Only 50%"

Only a 50/50 chance of ruining someone's life. Just adopt. You'd do the same with a cat or dog by getting one from a shelter, why not the same for a child?

Smacks of selfishness and one of the reasons I got a vasectomy.

Uh. Did you even read what I wrote?

So it's sort of a gamble and some people want kids, so I hear a lot about people with my condition having kids. I don't get it either. If I could get egg donations, I probably would, because I kind of like the idea of having one kid with my husband. But it's not a deal breaker either. I'd be happy if I never have that opportunity.

People are human and wanting children is a pretty human thing. Is it something I would do given the knowledge I have? Nope. But I'm not going to insult someone who has a different life and experience than I and call them selfish. It's not really my business. Also, people with my diagnosis can have children who may inherit the disorder but have a greater quality of life than them because they have a less severe manifestation. And the majority of families with adults who have already been diagnosed do not face the emotional, social and medical challenges of getting their children diagnosed. The trouble of navigating a medical community that offers little empathy to invisible disorders is a large facet of poor quality of life for people like me. It's complicated and to sum up every parent who decides to procreate as selfish is a gross generalization.

But yes, how about we just sterilize or kill off everyone who is ill for the convenience of our society? Eugenics, yay.

[NapisaurusRex]

One thing I've never understood is the entire concept of jewellery, excluding wedding and engagement rings (which are obviously symbolic). Are people meant to look more attractive when they have shiny bits of metal/gems in/on them? I don't get it at all.

I have a necklace that I can put essential oils in and smell it for happiness.

 

I don't understand why the internet company I use doesn't have a website and can only be reached from 9-5.

[Coops]

I have a necklace that I can put essential oils in and smell it for happiness.

 

I don't understand why the internet company I use doesn't have a website and can only be reached from 9-5.

@Jess Seriously? They don't have a website? What the actual fuck? xD HOW?! But in all seriousness, I hope you can get your internet shit situated soon. I know it's frustrating.

[Frizzle]

Uh. Did you even read what I wrote?

So it's sort of a gamble and some people want kids, so I hear a lot about people with my condition having kids. I don't get it either. If I could get egg donations, I probably would, because I kind of like the idea of having one kid with my husband. But it's not a deal breaker either. I'd be happy if I never have that opportunity.

People are human and wanting children is a pretty human thing. Is it something I would do given the knowledge I have? Nope. But I'm not going to insult someone who has a different life and experience than I and call them selfish. It's not really my business. Also, people with my diagnosis can have children who may inherit the disorder but have a greater quality of life than them because they have a less severe manifestation. And the majority of families with adults who have already been diagnosed do not face the emotional, social and medical challenges of getting their children diagnosed. The trouble of navigating a medical community that offers little empathy to invisible disorders is a large facet of poor quality of life for people like me. It's complicated and to sum up every parent who decides to procreate as selfish is a gross generalization.

But yes, how about we just sterilize or kill off everyone who is ill for the convenience of our society? Eugenics, yay.

Uh. Did you even read what I wrote?

So it's sort of a gamble and some people want kids, so I hear a lot about people with my condition having kids. I don't get it either. If I could get egg donations, I probably would, because I kind of like the idea of having one kid with my husband. But it's not a deal breaker either. I'd be happy if I never have that opportunity.

People are human and wanting children is a pretty human thing. Is it something I would do given the knowledge I have? Nope. But I'm not going to insult someone who has a different life and experience than I and call them selfish. It's not really my business. Also, people with my diagnosis can have children who may inherit the disorder but have a greater quality of life than them because they have a less severe manifestation. And the majority of families with adults who have already been diagnosed do not face the emotional, social and medical challenges of getting their children diagnosed. The trouble of navigating a medical community that offers little empathy to invisible disorders is a large facet of poor quality of life for people like me. It's complicated and to sum up every parent who decides to procreate as selfish is a gross generalization.

But yes, how about we just sterilize or kill off everyone who is ill for the convenience of our society? Eugenics, yay.

Well you can say what you want but to summarise, if there's even a slight chance you could pass on any form of medical or mental health issue which could adverse effect the quality of life, then you're selfish for having that kid.

Like I said, adoption is always an option if you have to fulfil that animalistic urge.

[Coops]

Well you can say what you want but to summarise, if there's even a slight chance you could pass on any form of medical or mental health issue which could adverse effect the quality of life, then you're selfish for having that kid.

Like I said, adoption is always an option if you have to fulfil that animalistic urge.

How about we all just stop having kids then yeah, since we all basically run the risk of adversely effecting the quality of life of our children? Just tie those tubes if you've got any illness or mental illness! Here, let's make it easier, we'll just shoot you dead if you're remotely ill, can't have you spreading through reproduction. Think of the children, you selfish person, you!

That's a great idea but also completely unrealistic and ignorant.

And no, adoption is not always an option - I say that as an adopted child. There are so many financial, social, emotional and mental implications that go with adopting, just like there are with having a baby. That is okay. Choosing to have your own baby versus adopting, is fine. It's perfectly understandable to want to make your own tiny human. It's also perfectly understandable to want to adopt an already born tiny human (or not so tiny for those great people who adopt old children). Someone's choice on whether they adopt or have a baby or don't really isn't your business. And it's not your business to place your misguided judgments of the selfishness of someone else when you literally cannot conceptualize their life, experiences and perceptions. Go ahead and think they are selfish, that's cool - but it doesn't make you an empathetic person and it's definitely not useful in the context of an intellectually and mentally healthy society.

[Katya]

Well you can say what you want but to summarise, if there's even a slight chance you could pass on any form of medical or mental health issue which could adverse effect the quality of life, then you're selfish for having that kid.

Like I said, adoption is always an option if you have to fulfil that animalistic urge.

 

In opposition to all mentally and physically healthy people that, in case of reproduction, will always have a 100% chance of having a completely healthy baby?

[Frizzle]

How about we all just stop having kids then yeah, since we all basically run the risk of adversely effecting the quality of life of our children? Just tie those tubes if you've got any illness or mental illness! Here, let's make it easier, we'll just shoot you dead if you're remotely ill, can't have you spreading through reproduction. Think of the children, you selfish person, you!

That's a great idea but also completely unrealistic and ignorant.

And no, adoption is not always an option - I say that as an adopted child. There are so many financial, social, emotional and mental implications that go with adopting, just like there are with having a baby. That is okay. Choosing to have your own baby versus adopting, is fine. It's perfectly understandable to want to make your own tiny human. It's also perfectly understandable to want to adopt an already born tiny human (or not so tiny for those great people who adopt old children). Someone's choice on whether they adopt or have a baby or don't really isn't your business. And it's not your business to place your misguided judgments of the selfishness of someone else when you literally cannot conceptualize their life, experiences and perceptions. Go ahead and think they are selfish, that's cool - but it doesn't make you an empathetic person and it's definitely not useful in the context of an intellectually and mentally healthy society.

Since I'm a taxpayer, the outright costs of mentally ill and physically disabled on the NHS is my business. Since the vast, vast majority of people I deal with on a daily basis at work have mental health issues, it is my business. Literally.

You keep going down the eugenics line for some bizarre reason, I have never advocated for legislative procedures on forced sterilisation or abortions (even though they are used infrequently in the uk. A recent high court case forced the sterilisation of a women who had a mental age of 8).

I haven't advocated for anyone with any mental illness to never had kids. Simply stated that anyone who has a high percentage of passing on a disability of mental health issue is selfish when adoption is always a possibility.

Adoption may have long term rigmarole issues attached to it, but that's exactly the same scenario as having a child biologically.

Every time you've failed to realise my main issue. If you pass on a biological or mental health issue that could have easily been avoided to satisfy your own body clock, you're selfish. I'm not talking minor issues like depression, anxiety or IBS. I'm talking bi-polar, schizophrenia, diabetes, Down syndrome, MS etc

In opposition to all mentally and physically healthy people that, in case of reproduction, will always have a 100% chance of having a completely healthy baby?

Hyperbole is a logical fallacy.

[Katya]

Hyperbole is a logical fallacy.

 

Well you can say what you want but to summarise, if there's even a slight chance you could pass on any form of medical or mental health issue which could adverse effect the quality of life, then you're selfish for having that kid.

Like I said, adoption is always an option if you have to fulfil that animalistic urge.

Then you meant than no one should have kids?
I'm trying to understand what you said because being free from any kind of illness is not a guarantee to have a perfectly healthy baby.

[Sweeney]

This is boring. You both have good points.

Lee is right - risking passing severe hereditary problems to your children is selfish.
Coops is right - abortion is not always an option, and being a little selfish isn't always the end of the world.

Besides, all parents fuck up their kids, so it doesn't bloody well matter anyway.

Edit: And Athayde is talking nonsense as always, when she attempts to engage in a grown-up discussion.

[Coops]

Since I'm a taxpayer, the outright costs of mentally ill and physically disabled on the NHS is my business. Since the vast, vast majority of people I deal with on a daily basis at work have mental health issues, it is my business. Literally.

You keep going down the eugenics line for some bizarre reason, I have never advocated for legislative procedures on forced sterilisation or abortions (even though they are used infrequently in the uk. A recent high court case forced the sterilisation of a women who had a mental age of 8).

I haven't advocated for anyone with any mental illness to never had kids. Simply stated that anyone who has a high percentage of passing on a disability of mental health issue is selfish when adoption is always a possibility.

Adoption may have long term rigmarole issues attached to it, but that's exactly the same scenario as having a child biologically.

Every time you've failed to realise my main issue. If you pass on a biological or mental health issue that could have easily been avoided to satisfy your own body clock, you're selfish. I'm not talking minor issues like depression, anxiety or IBS. I'm talking bi-polar, schizophrenia, diabetes, Down syndrome, MS etc

Hyperbole is a logical fallacy.

No, I got your main point - you think anyone who is sick and knows they are sick has a baby is selfish, without regard to their actual circumstances. Isn't it just better to treat people with empathy rather than disdain? 

Also, great job on minimizing people with depression, anxiety and IBS which are minor. Your apathy is just astounding.

[Romy]

 

Then you meant than no one should have kids?
I'm trying to understand what you said because being free from any kind of illness is not a guarantee to have a perfectly healthy baby.

 

That's not hyperbole..

Also, great job on minimizing people with depression, anxiety and IBS which are minor. Your apathy is just astounding.

As a hereditary condition? Those are minor.

 

I have a genetic condition that will cause me to lose my sight little by little. I'd kill to have IBS over it.

Which is worse?

[Frizzle]

Then you meant than no one should have kids?
I'm trying to understand what you said because being free from any kind of illness is not a guarantee to have a perfectly healthy baby.

Adverse being the key issue here. Major medical or mental health problems. I fail to see what is so hard about that.

This is boring. You both have good points.

Lee is right - risking passing severe hereditary problems to your children is selfish.
Coops is right - abortion is not always an option, and being a little selfish isn't always the end of the world.

Besides, all parents fuck up their kids, so it doesn't bloody well matter anyway.

Edit: And Athayde is talking nonsense as always, when she attempts to engage in a grown-up discussion.

Did I type abortion? I meant adoption

No, I got your main point - you think anyone who is sick and knows they are sick has a baby is selfish, without regard to their actual circumstances. Isn't it just better to treat people with empathy rather than disdain?

Also, great job on minimizing people with depression, anxiety and IBS which are minor. Your apathy is just astounding.

Yes anyone with a tendency for the common cold should have their uterus cut out. That's exactly what I meant.

Also, if you're trying to make a comparison between IBS and bi-polar, I suggest you spend time researching the conditions or being around someone with something as serious at that. Stop trying pick arguments when they are none. Bi-polar/schizophrenia are extremely major mental health issues in comparison to IBS or anxiety. Anxiety doesn't kill you, schizophrenia does.

[Swar]

I don't understand how so many people think we're not in a crisis. Are you fucking blind or what?

[Frizzle]

That's not hyperbole..

As a hereditary condition? Those are minor.

I have a genetic condition that will cause me to lose my sight little by little. I'd kill to have IBS over it.
Which is worse?

I never made the statement that no-one should ever have kids. I suggest you look up the term hyperbole before exemplifying your ignorance.

If you think hereditary disorders such as Alzheimer's, tuberous sclerosis, cystic fibrosis and or brain disorders are minor then that's your prerogative.

Edit: scrap all that. I read romys post wrong.

[Coops]

Also, if you're trying to make a comparison between IBS and bi-polar, I suggest you spend time researching the conditions or being around someone with something as serious at that. Stop trying pick arguments when they are none. Bi-polar/schizophrenia are extremely major mental health issues in comparison to IBS or anxiety. Anxiety doesn't kill you, schizophrenia does.

Aww, I guess it's a great thing I didn't do that.  And considering I have a life-threatening brain condition, but cute you totally have me nailed! I don't know anything about extreme major sickness.

But I'm not going to deny that everyone's experiences are different. I'm not going to tell a depressed person their experiences are somehow less severe than someone else's. Everyone's problems are their own and are the worst in the world for that person. 

Edited by Coops, 16 October 2015 - 10:51 AM.

[Frizzle]

Well no shit. Me having to work a 13 hour shift affects me more than someone's brain cancer affecting me. But what you're doing is comparing individual experiences to obvious differences in extremities. I personally think you're being difficult and refusing to see the various degrees of seriousness in different medial/mental health conditions.

Ask any person on the street or any medical professional what is worse: schizophrenia or dysmthia.

Also I haven't tried to "nail" you or whatever allegory you've made an assumption about. I don't really care about your personal background or obvious bias agenda. I prefer to look at things rationally and impartially.

[Romy]

Edit: scrap all that. I read romys post wrong.

I was so confused.

[Fikri]

back on topic: i have no idea what y'all babbling about.

[Katya]

Not only hereditary diseases create an adverse effect on someone's quality of life.

 

There's a slight chance a healthy couple to give birth do a child with a physical/mental disability.

 

But what do I know. *shrug*

[Swar]

back on topic: i have no idea what y'all babbling about.

Uhh, babies, diseases and adoption, I think. The usual.

[HiMyNameIsNick]

I don't understand how so many people think we're not in a crisis. Are you fucking blind or what?

 

 

Same here, but we call it "peronismo"

[Swar]

Same here, but we call it "peronismo"

The crisis or the people who are fucking blind?

[Halcyon]

Oh hooray, I sparked an argument. 

 

I agree that it is selfish to sow your seed knowing how debilitating your mental and or physical illnesses are. But I also understand the human urge to flanoodle. The fact that we are wired to want to make as many minnie me's as possible is a highlight of our natural selfishness in itself. Like damn, I know my baby would be cute.

 

 

 

I think that when you have seriously debilitating mental or physical illness and chose to procreate on the off chance that the child may not carry the same problems based on personal reasons of "love, strength, and adversity",  that's some cheesy chicken soup for the soul type shit. You may say that's being a bit impassive, but I disagree. I think it show's more empathy and kindness to relinquish your own desire of kids who look like you because you don't want another life to suffer as you did. If it's only because you really really want a family but you're also in no financial position to adopt, well toughest of luck, life had never been completely fair with you why think that that's going to change now? Anyways, how about dogs? And even then people like to choose the one that looks like them.

 

Spoiler

  

 

And yes, idiots can fuck up with their normal, healthy child as well. But it's different when you know what you're doing, at least those idiots didn't. & to what extent do people normally fuck up their child anyways? I'd rather have that than be predisposed with something with which I can only pacify but never cure.

 

Also, even when the child ends up not having your own maladies, can't that shit possibly pop up with their own kids? (Confirm me on this, I don't know too much on genetics)

Edited by Halcyon, 16 October 2015 - 04:22 PM.

[Sweeney]

Not only hereditary diseases create an adverse effect on someone's quality of life.

There's a slight chance a healthy couple to give birth do a child with a physical/mental disability.

But what do I know. *shrug*

Nothing about how to make a relevant point, it would seem.