241 replies to this topic

[amyjia]

Think about the time most of the bible was written.
Were there Wills and Jacks? (from will and grace)

Exactly my point. Those laws were made for those people back then. They are not for us today. God's commandments however are (according to the Bible) unchanging and apply to everyone. People seem to get so confused about this.

You are over analizing it.

No, actually I'm analyzing just fine.. But thanks for your concern. I think once again I said enough on this topic.. Tah Tah

[Inside Of You]

COMPLETELY off the topic, but Will & Grace is awesome.

Anyways. Back to the bickering.

[/Max]

Ugh, can you stop being innapropriate and feeling like a big boy every time you say "OWNED LOLOLO BEEHOFHNCH"?

Because it's getting fairly annoying.

If you can't handle the debate chat without throwing a fit, then leave.

"But all in the seas or in the rivers that do not have fins and scales, all that move in the water or any living thing which is in the water, they are an abomination to you. They (shellfish) shall be an abomination to you; you shall not eat their flesh, but you shall regard their carcasses as an abomination.Whatever in the water does not have fins or scales; that shall be an abomination to you." (Leviticus 11:10-12)

As said--
Eating shrimp makes you as much as an abomination as a homosexual, in your God's view. Now either see that as whacked up, or stop being hypocritical.

[Cript]

Ugh, can you stop being innapropriate and feeling like a big boy every time you say "OWNED LOLOLO BEEHOFHNCH"?

Because it's getting fairly annoying.

If you can't handle the debate chat without throwing a fit, then leave.
As said--
Eating shrimp makes you as much as an abomination as a homosexual, in your God's view. Now either see that as whacked up, or stop being hypocritical.

I don't eat fish...or anything else in the sea.

Exactly my point. Those laws were made for those people back then. They are not for us today. God's commandments however are (according to the Bible) unchanging and apply to everyone. People seem to get so confused about this.
No, actually I'm analyzing just fine.. But thanks for your concern. I think once again I said enough on this topic.. Tah Tah

The old testament laws were made for them back in the day. My new testament citations apply to modern day christians.

[/Max]

I don't eat fish...or anything else in the sea.

You're ignoring the fact that the majority of the entire world does.

Why don't you limit their rights? Is abomination meaning something different here?

[otherworld]

wow i didnt think it was possible to turn a debate about homosexual marriages to an argument about fish

grow up a bit

[/Max]

wow i didnt think it was possible to turn a debate about homosexual marriages to an argument about fish

grow up a bit

Are you too silly to understand the point?

Bible says gays = abomination. Bible says eating fish = abomination.

Therefore bible = WTF

Edited by M-Xite, 03 August 2006 - 08:27 AM.

[Cript]

Are you too stupid to understand the point?

Bible says gays = abomination. Bible says eating fish = abomination.

Therefore bible = WTF

Is there a reason you're flaming a fellow member?

Just because you can rip a verse out of context doesn't mean you're a theologian. At any rate, I've proven there are new testament references to not engaging in homosexual activities, can you do the same to eating fish?

[/Max]

Is there a reason you're flaming a fellow member?

Just because you can rip a verse out of context doesn't mean you're a theologian. At any rate, I've proven there are new testament references to not engaging in homosexual activities, can you do the same to eating fish?

Edited, since you 'ripped my quote out of context'.

I'm saying that the bible condemns shrimp eaters as abominations.. or do you only follow some of the bible?

[/Max]

You know what's funny? I'm sitting here reading your posts and just laughing because you have NO idea what you're talking about. How can you debate about a book you have never read? As cript already explained, the old testament laws were for the people back then. Once Jesus died on the cross and the temple's sheets ripped in half, it symbolized a new beggining, and now most christians follow many of the laws given by Jesus himself, or by his diciples.

Assume nothing. I have read every single part of the bible. I stopped reading it for the second time when I couldn't stand reading how parents should kill their children if they disrespect them in any way.

[Cript]

Assume nothing. I have read every single part of the bible. I stopped reading it for the second time when I couldn't stand reading how parents should kill their children if they disrespect them in any way.

This would be like me debating a translation of the Quran with Hydrogen. Old Testament = laws applying to Hebrew nation. New Testament = Laws applying to Christians at that time and in the future. The nation of Israel was God's special nation and he expected far more from them than from anyone else so his laws were much more "strict."

[/Max]

You guys swap between using the Bible as your holy book and saying it's old and not used any more.

So, which is it? Then, we'll continue with the debate, and you'll have to stick with your answer so you can't weasel out.

[Sweeney]

Bible = holy book = Old and New testaments
Old testament = Old bit, mostly outdated laws
New testament = New(er) bit, considered to contain laws still relevant to modern life by the majority of followers.

Clearer for you?

[Inside Of You]

But ok, take into consideration this... if there was no such thing as the Bible or the Bible didn't mention homosexuality / approved of it, would you guys think differently?

And please don't bring in the Bible quotes and what not; I really don't care about how I'm condemned to hell for being gay.

It just seems like everyone has a standpoint based on religion right now.

[Inside Of You]

How is that a retarded question? I'm not questioning God's existence, I'm asking if you can go beyond the Bible instead of taking everything that, for all we know, fictional piece of work says.

Now is God doing miracles right now? Is he showing his powers? Um... huh... That's odd, I don't effing think so.

[amyjia]

ok..It seems I need to clarify a bit.. Yes the New testament does mention homosexuality, but once more there is a context.. Time for quoting myself

Homosexuality is mentioned in both the old and new testament. Homosexuality was bad because God wanted people to be "fruitful and multiply" and with homosexuality, they couldn't do that. Also back then, the family depended on you having children to help sustain the culture and to keep the "race" alive. Many people don't understand this. When you read the Bible you must put it into context and not just pick out certain verses and draw conclusions from it. Today, races of people aren't dependant on everyone procreating. Actually, in many cases, it would help if people didn't procreate so much.

Ok. Romans. Yes it does speak of homosexuality in Romans, however, once more we must look at the context.

Romans was written by Paul to the Christians in Rome about A.D. 57. Christianity was growing in Rome,but was still small percentage. So Paul wrote a letter (Romans) to the Christians in Rome saying these things:

Everyone sins---------------------------------Romans 3:9-20
God saves people who believe--------------Romans 4:1-25
Jesus died (57 years ago) for them--------Romans 5:1-11
God's Spirit helps them do right------------Romans 8:1-11
God's Loves them forever------------------Romans 8:28-39
God shows people how to love------------Romans 12:9-21

Now yes, Romans does speak against homosexuality, but there is a reason. Once more, there weren't a lot of Christians in Rome then so to "keep their culture alive" they needed to have children who they could teach. Likewise, they needed "young people" who could help convert other "young people". This worked for Christians in Rome. By umm.. about the sixth century A.D., homosexuality was outlawed in Rome. This was partly due to the influence of other cultures upon the Capitol City, but mostly due to the spread and influence of Christianity. Since there is no danger for surivial of "Christians culture" (or also any established religion's culture), I would say homosexuality is ok .

The Book of Corinthians(also written by Paul) is the same way. Also written in A.D. 57, but to the Christians in Corinth.

The Bible says in 2 Timothy 2:15, "Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."

You are supposed to rightly divide the Bible and put into context, not take it all so literally.. (Well actually, even in the new testament, people only want to take bits and pieces literally).. ex.

1 Cor. 6:9-10, "Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of God."

The Bible in the New Testament speaks against people who have sex before marriage and people who drink.. So why aren't people today trying to take away their rights? Last time I checked there were no laws against drunk people or foricators getting married. And the effeminate fellow is also here. I guess we should stop Metrosexuals from getting married also? These are just a few examples of how people want to take some parts of the Bible literally, yet ignore other parts. However still, even these new testament laws don't apply to us today. Like I said, these were laws of the land to help Christians(in Rome, Corinth, etc) back then survive. Through the years, the laws of the land(U.S., etc) have changed, but God's commandments stay the same.

ok..I know I said I was done before, but I just had to clear that up..

Edited by amyjia, 04 August 2006 - 01:12 PM.

[/Max]

Bible = holy book = Old and New testaments
Old testament = Old bit, mostly outdated laws
New testament = New(er) bit, considered to contain laws still relevant to modern life by the majority of followers.

Clearer for you?

I didn't ask, and I have known this.

I asked THIS.

Now please answer it and I'll continue with my point of the debate.

You guys swap between using the Bible as your holy book and saying it's old and not used any more.

So, which is it? Then, we'll continue with the debate, and you'll have to stick with your answer so you can't weasel out.

[amyjia]

I didn't ask, and I have known this.

I asked THIS.

Now please answer it and I'll continue with my point of the debate.

The Bible is essentially the story of a man (Abraham) and his family..Abraham was the descendant of Adam and also the father of Issac and Ishmal. Issac then was the father of Jacob who was renamed Israel etc etc. The Bible tells stories of "past people" that are suppose to teach lessons. Within those stories are (according to Christians) the actual words of God that do not change. ex. (The Ten Commandments). Also within those stories are the laws of the land that the people back then had to follow. ex. (Laws of ancient Roman Christians set by Paul, and laws of Levicitus for the Israelites leaving Eygpt set by Moses) They are not for us today. The lessons of piety, forgiveness, etc in the stories are universal.

Edited by amyjia, 04 August 2006 - 03:27 PM.

[Inside Of You]

It's a retarted question because the Bible is here on earth (Like God isn't here on earth) and as such I am going to use it. I love when you say "for all we know", because that's exactly it, you don't know. The Bible is God's Word, I would be retarted to question it.

You'd be retarded to not think outside your church for once. Yay, go organized religion, ESPECIALLY Christianity. It's people like you who make America look bad. What with the whole "change is bad" attuitude.

It's my way or the highway, according to your "God", isn't it?

Cause the God I believe in doesn't do that.

[Hawk]

You'd be retarded to not think outside your church for once. Yay, go organized religion, ESPECIALLY Christianity. It's people like you who make America look bad. What with the whole "change is bad" attuitude.

It's my way or the highway, according to your "God", isn't it?

Cause the God I believe in doesn't do that.

So now he is retarded for being a good, solid Christian? Yay, enjoy hell, ESPECIALLY the lakes of fire and burning brimstone. Alias is not saying change is bad. He is saying homosexuality is bad as the Bible is against it, and that is what he believes in. Why are you bashing him about his religion?

No, it is God's way or hell, you wish the highway was an option.

Cause the God you believe in doesn't exist . Wait, what do you believe in?

[Ives]

Make America look bad? It's people like me that America is even half decent as it is, and couldn't be without us. We're the "morons" that oppose the showing of explicit content to minors. We're the "retards" that save millions of baby's a year, and yet we make America look bad? Give me a break.

Yeah, that's why other countries love America, and believe that America is an awesome country with awesome policies, and awsome people. But really, America is cool and all, but I don't agree with a few of the policies right now. I'm mainly conservative, though I'm for abortion (within the first trimester only,) and for gay marriage, mainly because gays aren't bothering me, and they deserve the rights to see their spouse if they're in the hospital, and the other benefits of marriage. They aren't going to change simply because of a law, so whether its called civil union, marriage, or whatever, they do deserve equal rights that any heterosexual couple gets. I compare it to atheists getting married, though that's commonly disagreed with.

Edited by Athean, 06 August 2006 - 10:40 AM.

[Amagius]

Make America look bad? It's people like me that America is even half decent as it is, and couldn't be without us. We're the "morons" that oppose the showing of explicit content to minors. We're the "retards" that save millions of baby's a year, and yet we make America look bad? Give me a break.

America looks bad because of people that choose to not think, but instead follow the words of a man in a suit because they believe he represents their cause. Organized religion can perpetuate that, and the visible Christian church does that very well.

What good, law abiding Christian would stand against the church's view? The long, narrow road of thought dies hard now, as we devolve into mindless voids that are fighting for a right every damn day, but not putting any thought into the fight. Americans will ALWAYS have an opinion, but we rarely ever put thought into it or study it down to the source. Why? We're lazy and [moreso] the media refuses to show the harsher and more truthful topics.

I digress, but that quote caught my attention. Christians do good for America just as much as they do bad for America, but in different ways.


EDIT: Apparently, it caught alot of peoples' attention. Haha.

[Ives]

Why do you guys continually bring up the concept of all Christians being close minded? Why? Are you just that ignorant, or stupid? Have you not seen the numerous debates I have had taking other's theory's into consideration, and sharing my own opinion on them? Having faith is impossible in this world, because when you do you automatically become some ignorant close minded freak, and that's what the world always does. You fail to see that it's not the church we serve, but God. It's not the "churches view", it's God's view. No matter if you choose to believe that He exists or not, you cannot sit there and talk about things you have no idea about. I don't see how any true Christian could ever "hurt" America.

The close minded statements are more about religion and personal politics over religion.

[Amagius]

Why do you guys continually bring up the concept of all Christians being close minded? Why? Are you just that ignorant, or stupid? Have you not seen the numerous debates I have had taking other's theory's into consideration, and sharing my own opinion on them? Having faith is impossible in this world, because when you do you automatically become some ignorant close minded freak, and that's what the world always does. You fail to see that it's not the church we serve, but God. It's not the "churches view", it's God's view. No matter if you choose to believe that He exists or not, you cannot sit there and talk about things you have no idea about. I don't see how any true Christian could ever "hurt" America.

YOU ARE NOT THE ONLY CHRISTIAN! Why do you assume I don't regularly meet Christians? Are you ignorant or do you assume things without learning? Having faith is fine -- You believe in God! I don't mind or care.

I go to church every Sunday. I head up two ministries at the church I go to and the church has attenance around 900 every Sunday. I just went to the installation of a new pastor! I know what I talk about, and I love every bit of it when people think I don't know about the religion or the church. I know more than most people! Isn't the point though.

You are a minor representation of the church. In this church, you know who goes there? Every-barking-one, from young to deathbed old. These people follow what the visible church tells them to, and the only way they would disagree is if there parent or spouse told them differently. The politics of the church are almost always shaky, but one thing rings VERY firm: the beliefs of the church are supported by the vast majority. If the church wanted to talk about abortion being bad, they could and everyone would agree. Likewise, if the church presented what most people who are arguing with a Christian does and shed new light, they would consider it sound.

The people of the church can do wonderful things and that is why I lead what I do -- I cannot get them to stop evangelizing whenever we do, but we are helping people and I prefer that than to no help at all, but true Christians can hurt America -- with ignorance. They are innocent people, but they choose to be ignorant because the church helps them t o be. Sorry, but in this case, the guy on the other side of the table has alot of experience with your defendee.

[Amagius]

See, look, you still missed it. You may think you know everything, but i'm sorry there are things you don't.

Here's the problem, you think when I talk that I talk for all Christians, which is wrong. I think that you are stereotyping Christians when you start talking about how the church controls them. I don't know where you live, or what you witness, but around here it's the Bible or nothing. Church is a place to go fellowship with other Christians, and to learn about the teachings of the Bible. There is no "do this or your out" stuff. We are not forced to do anything. We get our information from the Bible, and that's it. If it's wrong in the Bible, it's wrong at our church. So technically, "listening to the church", is equal to listening to God, and that's perfectly fine with me.

So you do have a problem, just because you have knowledge of one side of the story does not mean you can summarize it into both, because as you can see that just doesn't work.

Appreciating all the assumptions. You're the only one accusing me of knowing everything or nothing.

I have seen many churches forego the usual gospel evangelizing to address issues like abortion and gay marriage -- not just the one I go to. I'm not assuming here, I've seen over five churches do it in Houston (and a few others in different locations). Churches try to show people the way the elders and pastors decide it so.

Maybe you aren't involved in the church as much as many people are -- the bible studies, the events -- I don't know, but alot of older people are and they can be guided through naivety because of the pius status of the pastor. Also, after seeing so many churches attempt this, I'll call it fair to say most do.