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The Evolution of Depression


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#1 Guest_Casilla_*

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Posted 18 May 2006 - 02:20 AM

DEBATE DISCLAIMER: This is NOT a debate about whether or not evolution is real. This debate assumes that the Theory of Evolution is true. Do NOT post your beliefs, or lack thereof, regarding the Theory of Evolution (and whether or not it is true). If you DO, I will have a mod invisi your posts, and I will be very upset with you. Also, don't post things like, "Too long to read, lol" - there's no point in posting at all, then!

You may, of course, argue whether or not the Theory of Evolution applies to this situation. :p

Warning: Long Read! But worth it. =P I had to explain a lot of things, moreso on the theory for (which was difficult to understand) than the argument against (easy to understand!). So don't think I'm being unfair or anything. =P

Recently, a theory has been published regarding the evolutionary advantages of depression. The theory states that depression (minor to major) is not, in fact, an illness (unless there is a definite physical reason, such as brain damage), but rather an evolutionary behavior that is designed (in the end) to benefit the individual. This theory only applies to depression which is a result of an actual problem - a loved one died, an individual is not happy with their job/lifestyle/wealth/place in life, or any emotional trauma that is a result of an event or relationship. This accounts for most depression, no matter the severity.

Evolutionary behavior is something that is a very tricky subject, but generally regarded as sound. For example, a cat will arch its back, or a dog will raise its hackles, when threatened. This is not behavior that is learned - if you took a baby away from its mother the moment it was born, and raised it completely separate from others in its species, it will still exhibit this sort of behavior in adulthood. You would also refer to this sort of thing as "instinct". :p However, how evolutionary behavior relates to genetics isn't something that scientists have been able to define on the genome - and it will be quite a while before anyone does, as we have barely touched the surface of DNA analysis.

Evolutionary psychology is even trickier. For example, there is definite evolutionary advantages to emotions like love, fear, disgust, happiness, humour. Love promotes society (security in numbers) and protection of relatives (genetic information). Fear gets adrenaline pumping, a very handy hormone in stressful situations. Disgust will help you avoid ingesting anything that could possibly be toxic (like being disgusted by rotting meat). Happiness - well, happy people generally live healthier, longer lives, and are more successful at passing on genetic information (everyone likes happy people!), and, of course, humour perpetuates happiness.

But sadness is one of those things that evolutionary psychology cannot define. There is no (obvious) benefit to being sad, as often it is not a situation that you can change. And of course, there's some explainable sadness - for example, being sad at the untimely death of a loved one may promote activism on your part regarding the safety of other loved ones (generally, relatives with your genetic information), which would extend to natural (old age) death of loved ones, or death/destruction of objects or pets with which you have an emotional attachment with. As in, if you felt it in one occasion, it would make sense that you feel it in ALL occasions, even if those occasions did not benefit you, because of the nature of human emotions.

However, feeling glum when it rains, or sad about a failed achievement - those are harder to define. You cannot change the weather, or the past, and the evolutionary advantages thereof are not so clear (although arguments could be made, as I have already thought of some while writing this).

But an evolutionary advantage to depression is not something you would immediately see benefit to. In fact, depression is regarded as a disease - but this theory states that because of medical misconceptions, depression is being treated incorrectly. Rather, therapists are throwing medication to alleviate symptoms, rather than actually curing the problem that perpetuates it.

Anyway, the theory of the advantage to depression goes something like this...depression is a heavy risk. If there is something wrong in an individual's life that they cannot fix by themselves, depression is a "cry for help" to the other people involved in the individual's life. If other people are dependent on this person - monetarily or emotionally - they are motivated to help this individual fix their problem, because otherwise, the individual imposes strain on others' lives. This very much a calculated gamble, because the individual is also imposing great complications in their own life.

But let's use an analogy to describe this. If you work for a company, and are not happy with your salary or working conditions, you may go on strike in order to force the management to change the situation. Now, of course, this is a big risk - you would lose money while on strike, your family may suffer because you could not support them, and you may lose your job. But if you are important enough to the company, you would impose a great cost to them for not fixing your wishes.

Of course, the obvious argument to this is, "Well, what if they just hire someone else?" Well, you cannot fire family. ;) Remember, however, evolution is slow (to us), in that while depression would not benefit someone of the modern environment - in the Stone Age, it could definitely cause an impact. People were not isolated nor in large society; they were in small hunter/gatherer groups. If someone simply stopped hunting, stopping gathering, stopping taking care of children, it would impose a great cost on the community, because it depends on every individual. The community would then be forced to help the individual fix their problem.

The theory even suggests that this the reason behind post partum depression. A mother feels (for whatever reason, subconscious or not) she is unable to take care of a child, and is asking for support from the community.

There is an alarming number of suicides caused by depression, which is obviously against evolutionary theory, so how is it explained? Well, two ways. First, once again, in those primal times, it wasn't as easy to kill yourself as it is now. An individual talking about suicide, or showing suicidal tendencies, would be a very alarming thing to a group, and thus they would be forced to step in (as we do today). However, it's much easier to kill yourself today as it was back then - you had to walk off a cliff (how many people threaten, but do not actually jump off of tall buildings?), you had to purposely find a predator, or even cut yourself with rocks (not as easy as a razor!) - all of which you have strong instincts against, and thus would be much more difficult than simply drinking poison, sitting in an enclosed area with the car on, hanging yourself, etc. - which you have no real instincts against, rather than "I don't want to die." So the actual suicide rate would be extremely low, practically unheard of, compared to today. It's evolutionarily sound as long as you do not go through with it. :p

The other idea is much more cruel, but is exhibited by other social creatures - in that, your community benefits from your suicide. By killing yourself, you alleviate any strain you imposed on your community by being a burden. Your relatives (with your DNA) could get on with their lives and reproduce, etc.

Now remember, this is all very radical, and is offensive to some - but the idea is not about being nice. It's about correctly treating a problem, in that, instead of just throwing drugs at it (because it's a disease and needs to be cured), you correctly locate the problem in your life and are given solutions to the problem. It's something that, where applicable, your friends and family would get involved with, as depression tends to be a social conflict. However, medication will still be used to alleviate symptoms, but not as a "cure".

The argument AGAINST this theory goes something like this...while sadness IS normal, an evolutionary advantage...depression is like cancer. A normal biological process gone wrong, and is out of control. And generally, scientists are afraid that by not treating it as a disease, that we'll revert back to former (destructive) therapies like they had in the 60's. In that, depression was regarded as not serious, as a problem on your part, drink some tea and get over it.

It is not something that would make sense, statisically, as a natural behavior of the species - but rather, as an uncommon disease. In that, it is not something that occurs frequently in all people who undergo similar situations, and it has a predisposition to occur in certain families (once again, like cancer; even though it is a genetic trait, a cat of a certain family isn't more predisposed to arch its back, after all).

However, both sides contend that it is not a thoroughly studied as it should be, and further testing would reveal whether or not the theory of depression as an evolutionary behavior trait is credible or not.

So, if you've read through that, discuss what you think! Is it a disease, or a roundabout solution?

Edited by Casilla, 18 May 2006 - 02:32 AM.


#2 Guest_Analogué_*

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Posted 18 May 2006 - 02:46 AM

Edit: Oh bums. Apparently my whole post was irrelevent :p

I just don't know what to say!




It was interesting! :)

Edited by Analogué, 18 May 2006 - 02:50 AM.


#3 Guest_Casilla_*

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Posted 18 May 2006 - 02:57 AM

There already seems to be a misconception...

In regards to "emo" - being emo is not really being depressed. Emo kids claim to be depressed, but it isn't true depression. It's call a fad. That doesn't mean that there AREN'T emo kids that are truly depressed, but the vast majority are just following the trend.

There is a problem in modern language in that the word depressed is being used interchangeably with "sadness", when it shouldn't. Depression is a very extreme form of sadness, to the point where your daily and social life is disrupted. You do not get out of bed, you do not eat, you do not go to school/work, you do not talk to people (where you normally would), you often do actions which many would perceive to be self-destructive (attempted suicide). It is far more serious, and a completely different nature, than a "life sucks"/"people suck" attitude, or "I don't feel my best this week" (which would be referred to as "the blues").

#4 Guest_Analogué_*

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Posted 18 May 2006 - 03:08 AM

You've not lost your touch in this area have you Cas? :p

I've managed to find a line of argument I can contend with. Depression is neither an evolutionary trait nor a disease/mental illness :p It's an over-hyped emotional thing that everyone goes through with, and people just need to learn how to cope :p

Edited by Analogué, 18 May 2006 - 03:09 AM.


#5 Cam

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Posted 18 May 2006 - 03:28 AM

Me with my paranoid thingy I will think that when my mum says stuff like "Looking foward to you're birthday?" I'll say "Yeah if i'm still here though"

Like if I get something wrong with me I think Ill die, Go to Jail, Go into mental house or somthing.

My Motorbike for instance I ride it under no permission to. My parents dont let me I just ride it straight after school before they come home.
Im scared though, Like If I ride it and cops get me and I've heard its a $2000 fine and I think ohno I wont be able to pay it and I'll have to go to Juvenile and my parents will leave me. Thats what I think about most of the Time if I do something like that.

When I had the flu, I thought it was the birdflu and I was going to die and I would miss my family and stuff, but turns out it was a normal cold.

When I thought I had a blood clot last weekend I was scared I was going to die >_<

When I got a tiny bit of deodrant in my mouth yesterday I thought I was going to die.

So basiclly I think and over react about my future.



When My grandmother died, I was down about for a week and was over it well not really over it I still wish she was here sometimes but yeah I'm over it now and my mum said to think of all the good times with her.

When our family friend killed his girlfriends mother he was like a brother to me and He would take me places and do cool stuff but now hes in jail on the day it happend that night I cried about it but got over it and said he probably shouldnt of done it and I can visit him every once in ahwhile.

#6 RandomNameIgnoreIt

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Posted 18 May 2006 - 03:44 AM

That makes sense but this day in age I see it as more of a hinderance than a useful cry for help to the community. I'd post more, but I'm tired and have to go to work soon :p I'll probably comment on this a lot more later.

#7 Cory

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Posted 18 May 2006 - 03:52 AM

But sadness is one of those things that evolutionary psychology cannot define. There is no (obvious) benefit to being sad, as often it is not a situation that you can change. And of course, there's some explainable sadness - for example, being sad at the untimely death of a loved one may promote activism on your part regarding the safety of other loved ones (generally, relatives with your genetic information), which would extend to natural (old age) death of loved ones, or death/destruction of objects or pets with which you have an emotional attachment with. As in, if you felt it in one occasion, it would make sense that you feel it in ALL occasions, even if those occasions did not benefit you, because of the nature of human emotions.



First I will say that I do strongly agree that Depression has undergone the strong influences of evolution. Not necisarily for the good though. I mean think about it 70 years ago or so when your dog dies what did you do? You went out back dug a hole buried it, maybe had a ceremony in order to comfort the kids and then you got on with your life, the same day. Now you see people not go to work the next few days over a animal. I personally have three dogs and a cat that have been with us forever and my family loves them to death, but is it really something to get depressed over? The world as a hole has gotten to emotional and has "leaned" / "evolved" into a stronger since of depression.

The theory stated that Depression was a out reach for friends and/or family to get involved and to try and help you. I do believe this to a degree, but I believe it is more based on a outreach to ones self. Mainly a reality check to hopefully open your eyes to realize that you do have a problem and maybe even show you a better route to correcting the issue. Now n' days their are a great a number of people who only get depressed because they know the doctor would throw drugs at them. I consider this more of a withdrawal than anything. Yes it may lead to a form of depression if the doctor does what is right and tells you to get over it, instead of given out drugs.

Suicide on the other hand is a out reach for help. Many people that commit suicide do not intend on dieing, yet they rest their life on faith. Most actually believe that if god wants them to live then he will let them live. For instance being saved at the last moment after someone cuts the wrist. If someone really wanted to die, wouldn't they just go off into a secluded area and shot them self in the head or cut their neck? If that is the case then why do the majority, yes the majority as in more than 75%, of suicidal people tell someone of their plans before they actually attempt it?

So my view on depression is that it is evolutionary because of how it has changed from a potential lose to your society to what it is now where it can be evolved from something small, but you think you have lost control off.


You've not lost your touch in this area have you Cas? :p

I've managed to find a line of argument I can contend with. Depression is neither an evolutionary trait nor a disease/mental illness :p It's an over-hyped emotional thing that everyone goes through with, and people just need to learn how to cope :p



I think you said it best. People just need to learn to cope. Instead of throwing drugs and such at them. Find the root of your depression and take it by the balls.

#8 Cam

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Posted 18 May 2006 - 03:54 AM

Well said Marine ^_^

#9 Guest_Casilla_*

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Posted 18 May 2006 - 04:29 AM

That makes sense but this day in age I see it as more of a hinderance than a useful cry for help to the community. I'd post more, but I'm tired and have to go to work soon :p I'll probably comment on this a lot more later.

Nobody is disagreeing that it is a hinderance. That is the point of it - it hinders the community, so thus, they try to resolve the problem. But it's almost a useless gesture in today's society - because a lot of people suffering from depression tend to be isolated, anyway.

#10 Frizzle

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Posted 18 May 2006 - 04:54 AM

People are just too weak nowadays. Back in my day we'd kick depression right in the nutsack.

Depression is for depressists.

#11 volycz

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Posted 18 May 2006 - 08:26 AM

Evolutionary behavior is something that is a very tricky subject, but generally regarded as sound. Evolutionary psychology is even trickier.

Yes evolutionary psychology is so tricky, that most people who talk about it, totally
misinterpret it.

But sadness is one of those things that evolutionary psychology cannot define.

ROFL...

However, feeling glum when it rains, or sad about a failed achievement - those are harder to define. You cannot change the weather, or the past, and the evolutionary advantages thereof are not so clear (although arguments could be made, as I have already thought of some while writing this).

This falls into the trap of assuming every behavior is a result of evolutionary pressure and has to have a reason. In actual fact, a lot of features in organisms are "don't cares", some of them might even become useful in the future by chance so called exaptations where " the biological function currently performed by the adaptation was not the function performed while the adaptation evolved under earlier pressures of natural selection."

Do you really think the human brain evolved specifically to do abstract Math (say solve Fermet's last theorem), do programming, tell jokes etc? Yet we do all these things....

There has being almost no noticeable human evolution in the last 100,000 years, this means that caveman brains are practically identical to ours, does that mean 100,000 years ago nature was farsighted enough to endow our brains with the ability to do programming?

Similarly, we can have the reverse effect where some some normally useful function under certain circumstances becomes counterproductive.

For example fear of the dark ,distrust of strangers, no doubt as evolutionary advantages in the past, but the dark side of such instincts is tribalism, discrimination, etc.

I have no doubt that the genetic disposition of some people to succumb to depression is an accidental side-effect of some otherwise useful function. There are trade-offs to any evolved feature after all.

But an evolutionary advantage to depression is not something you would immediately see benefit to.


And why should it be a benefit? Evolution is not a perfect farseeing being with perfect solutions such that if it is a 'result of evolution' it must be useful.

Given the way how quickly cultural evolution as occurred compared to biological evolution, many of our biological heritage is still lagging behind and we are saddled with instincts that are bad given our current position.

Take our instinctive preference for sweet foods, in the dawn of our race's childhood that was no doubt a good thing to get all the carbohydrates , these days, the same instinct is likely to get you diabetic!

Appealing to the reason that "evolution intended it this way otherwise it wouldn't have cause us to do or prefer this " is both naive and dangerous.

In fact, depression is regarded as a disease - but this theory states that because of medical misconceptions, depression is being treated incorrectly. Rather, therapists are throwing medication to alleviate symptoms, rather than actually curing the problem that perpetuates it.

Typical misguided thinking.

Firstly, there are some studies that imply that rape is actually a evolutionary sound strategy, does that mean rape is morally right? Your tone in this post, comes pretty close to implying that just because something has an evolutionary advantage it's okay.

Secondly, arguably anything we do is a result of either nature (evolution) or nuture, saying that some biological aspect of us is a result of evolution does not help us in anyway.

Depression is considered a disease because it is undesirable from our viewpoint, evolution doesn't come into it! If we decide something is not good, how does knowing it is an aspect of evolution gone wrong, help us solve the problem?

<silly speculative theory with no evidence snipped>

The theory even suggests that this the reason behind post partum depression. A mother feels (for whatever reason, subconscious or not) she is unable to take care of a child, and is asking for support from the community.

Even if this was true so what? Depression is a cry for help, you don't need evolution to tell you that lol.

There is an alarming number of suicides caused by depression, which is obviously against evolutionary theory, so how is it explained? Well, two ways. First, once again, in those primal times, it wasn't as easy to kill yourself as it is now. An individual talking about suicide, or showing suicidal tendencies, would be a very alarming thing to a group, and thus they would be forced to step in (as we do today). However, it's much easier to kill yourself today as it was back then

LOL. More BS. Life in the 'old days' were far more dangerous , did you check what the average life expectancy was even 100 years ago? Life was far more ugly and dangerous in the past. In the caveman days it was even easier to die.

One quick way to die is to get so depressed you don't notice the sabertooth tiger behind you! :)


The other idea is much more cruel, but is exhibited by other social creatures - in that, your community benefits from your suicide. By killing yourself, you alleviate any strain you imposed on your community by being a burden. Your relatives (with your DNA) could get on with their lives and reproduce, etc.

So a suicidal person increases inclusive fitness? LOL.

Now remember, this is all very radical, and is offensive to some - but the idea is not about being nice.

It's hardly radical ,offensive or even new to me. Just typically confused thinking.

Remember just because something is a result of our genes, or due to some imaginary force of evolutionary nature, doesn't mean we should allow it.

Whether something is morally right by our standards does not have to conform to the law of the jungle.

Otherwise, we would all refuse to send people to the hospital, because, if they were truly fit, they would survive without seeing a doctor. In fact, let's not vaccinate children against any diseases, after all, if they don't have the resistant to survive, it's just too bad. The fittest survive no , doing otherwise would be to thwart the will of evolution.

It's about correctly treating a problem, in that, instead of just throwing drugs at it (because it's a disease and needs to be cured), you correctly locate the problem in your life and are given solutions to the problem. However, medication will still be used to alleviate symptoms, but not as a "cure".

This is total nonsense. So what if your speculative and totally baseless theory
is true? What would then be the correct way to treat the problem?

Give every human on the planet some gene treatment to remove the gene responsible for the problem?

Stand by and Let depressed people die quickly, so we can weed out that gene?

It's something that, where applicable, your friends and family would get involved with, as depression tends to be a social conflict.

Depression is a cry for help yes. But that doesn't not mean it is a *necessary* or sensible cry for help. all the time.

Do you know people who get depressed at the drop of the hat for no reason at all?

How is this a social conflict? Even if friends and family tried to help, what exactly could they do? We are not always talking about situations where some single teen mum, struggling to cope with life and needs help, but truly depressed people who are from all accounts successful in life, with a good marriage and no personal problems anyone can point at.

They are really depressed for no reason at all!

True in such cases it can be seen as a cry for help because there is some chemical imbalance in their brain, but that has nothing to do with your silly evolutionary psychology theory!

The argument AGAINST this theory goes something like this...while sadness IS normal, an evolutionary advantage...depression is like cancer. A normal biological process gone wrong, and is out of control. And generally, scientists are afraid that by not treating it as a disease, that we'll revert back to former (destructive) therapies like they had in the 60's. In that, depression was regarded as not serious, as a problem on your part, drink some tea and get over it.

We did that in the 60s? LOL.

Depression can be a medical thing with chemical inbalances and stuff, just before we reject baseless speculative evolutionary psychology theories does not mean we shouldn't treat depression properly!

So, if you've read through that, discuss what you think! Is it a disease, or a roundabout solution?


a big roflcake :D

#12 Frizzle

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Posted 18 May 2006 - 10:06 AM

I really don't think there is any reason to be depressed. Sure life may be hard, life may be cruel, but there's something, hard to explain that keeps us from screwing and thinking

"Fuck you life, I'm gonna kick you in the nuts and try my hardest to make the best out of a worse situation".

Seriously, life's a bitch.

#13 Guest_Casilla_*

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Posted 18 May 2006 - 11:00 AM

Volycz, you obviously misunderstood the purpose of the debate, my feelings on the debate (to which I have not defined), and the concept of evolution. The fact that you replied to nearly every single part of the post individually, well, I'm not going to do that, because that's an extensive waste...

This falls into the trap of assuming every behavior is a result of evolutionary pressure and has to have a reason. In actual fact, a lot of features in organisms are "don't cares", some of them might even become useful in the future by chance so called exaptations where " the biological function currently performed by the adaptation was not the function performed while the adaptation evolved under earlier pressures of natural selection."


The Theory of Evolution has nothing to do with foresight, nor does this theory we're discussing. They are saying that it is a hampering process in modern life - not that it didn't exist hundreds of thousands of years ago. That it had a purpose back then, but does not really fulfill its purpose correctly anymore, as a lot of people "don't care" (as you so eloquently put it) about others - a defining factor in the this strategy. Although I am not sure what you mean by a feature in other organisms that are "don't cares" - but exaptation, I am familiar with. Exaptation is not about some mystical foresight on evolution's part, nor is anyone saying it is or that depression is - exaptation is just plain luck. And in nature, luck goes a long way. However, exaptation would not be something that should even be discussed in this topic, as exaptation does not refer to things like these - or anything that has evolved unique to humans - but rather it is a theory explaining how more complex systems formed (such as feathers, eyes, circulatory systems). So why you would use it is beyond me.

There has being almost no noticeable human evolution in the last 100,000 years, this means that caveman brains are practically identical to ours, does that mean 100,000 years ago nature was farsighted enough to endow our brains with the ability to do programming?


If you went back 100,000 years, grabbed a human infant from primal woman, took him back to the future and raised him as a normal kid...yes, he would be able to do programming and Calculus and what-have-you. The brain's ability has not changed. What's changed is our social/cultural knowledge. It's taken the most very simplest of skills, and has compounded over the millenia to get the social knowledge we see today. Social knowledge being a knowledge that is shared amongst a community; which is why we are able to learn what we learn. People today rely on the knowledge and intelligence of people dead for hundreds, even thousands of years, to give us our basic mathematical principles, because no one person can figure that out in a lifetime. And often, it takes special individuals to make that leap forward in knowledge - just like evolution needs a mutation to progress.

Similarly, we can have the reverse effect where some some normally useful function under certain circumstances becomes counterproductive.


Yes, that is exactly what the theorists are saying.

Depression is considered a disease because it is undesirable from our viewpoint, evolution doesn't come into it! If we decide something is not good, how does knowing it is an aspect of evolution gone wrong, help us solve the problem?


You seem to be under the impression that if scientists theorize about evolution, that they are saying that it's "okay". No one's ever said that, I'm not sure why you would think that. The guys behind this theory aren't saying, "Just because depression may have given some an evolutionary advantage in the past" that it also means we should ignore depression. No, the point of the theory is to say that depression is NOT a disease (or mental illness), and should be treated with more of a problem solution strategy (fix WHY people are depressed) as opposed to a medical solution strategy (throw drugs at it), which is currently how psychologists treat 80-90% of depression cases.

Of course, the other side says that is wrong NOT because they cannot fathom evolution having anything to do with it, but because they feel that depression is a normal biological process gone wrong, like cancer. So sadness, which is evolutionarily normal, gets disrupted and goes on a destructive path, because something is wired wrong when it shouldn't be.

Given the way how quickly cultural evolution as occurred compared to biological evolution, many of our biological heritage is still lagging behind and we are saddled with instincts that are bad given our current position.


Yes, once again, this is exactly what the theory is saying.

LOL. More BS. Life in the 'old days' were far more dangerous , did you check what the average life expectancy was even 100 years ago? Life was far more ugly and dangerous in the past. In the caveman days it was even easier to die.

One quick way to die is to get so depressed you don't notice the sabertooth tiger behind you!


While life expectancy was very low, and yes, it was easier to die *unintentionally* - suicide is a completely different thing to accidental death, as going against some very base instincts is a hard thing to do. Even today, people get on top of tall buildings, threatening to jump - but most often, they do not jump, or worse, they accidentally fall. That is because that sort of thing is a much deeper instinct than "Don't drink poison". An instinct, which basically non-existant, and rather, people feel a fear of actual death because they know (through higher cognitive thinking) that they will die if they drink it, but their instincts don't know that; it only knows that the person is afraid. Still, very few people actually go through with it, and would be significantly less in those times, and thus that is how suicide fits this evolutionary theory.

However, your example would not fall under suicide, but rather, accidental death. Of course, being so depressed you are unable to function is a negative side-effect, but a necessary gamble, or so the theorists say.

Remember just because something is a result of our genes, or due to some imaginary force of evolutionary nature, doesn't mean we should allow it.

Whether something is morally right by our standards does not have to conform to the law of the jungle.

Otherwise, we would all refuse to send people to the hospital, because, if they were truly fit, they would survive without seeing a doctor. In fact, let's not vaccinate children against any diseases, after all, if they don't have the resistant to survive, it's just too bad. The fittest survive no , doing otherwise would be to thwart the will of evolution.


Once again, you misunderstood their purpose. YES, mistreating depression can have some very serious consequences. If you were complaining of chest pain, and the doctor gave you a painkiller without finding out WHY you were having chest pain, then he would be a very bad doctor. There could be a very serious problem with your health, and if doctors just ignore it and relieve the symptoms, then the problem is not really fixed. If someone has an aspect in their life that they are not happy about, why shouldn't people try to resolve that problem? There's nothing good about artificial happiness.

And the point of civilization is to thwart natural selection, do you not realise? By having society, by protecting the weaker individuals (who we could still benefit from in not so noticeable ways - like, intelligence), and by having such a large, diverse population, we nullify natural selection. There's other factors, most of which we fulfill, but ultimately, humans are practically evolutionarily stable.

Give every human on the planet some gene treatment to remove the gene responsible for the problem?

Stand by and Let depressed people die quickly, so we can weed out that gene?


Once again, you misunderstand evolutionary psychology. It would not simply be a "gene" that some people have. It is a "genetic behavior" that all people have - like, my example of a cat arching its back or a dog raising its hackles. Of course, because not all people exhibit depression is one of the main arguments against the theory.

And our DNA analysis is no where near good enough to be actually able to locate that sort of thing. And the theorists are not saying, in any way shape or form, that gene therapy should be used. They would probably be quite aghast at the concept.

The POINT of the theory is that depression is an indicator to the community that something is wrong in an individual's life, so that the community may be forced to help that individual. Genetic therapy would be just like throwing drugs at it - it wouldn't solve anything.

Next time, you could be a bit more polite, as well. There is no need for rudeness, even if you do not think that the theory is true.

#14 Tetiel

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Posted 18 May 2006 - 02:20 PM

Hehe... I love you Casilla and your walls of text! :D

Anyways... first off I want to say to those that say that depression can be cured on your own and you should be able to bounce back and take care of yourselves... you need to understand that for each person in a tragedy they will react differently. Take a trauma like a car accident and two people are in the same car. One is fine and it hardly effects their lives and the other person becomes so afraid that it will happen again that they for a while can't get behind the wheel again or ride in a car and it effects their lives. Does that make the person effected more stupid or weak? No. They are just individuals. Some people handle depressions and traumas differently and just because you may be able to get over it easier doesn't mean the other person will be able to do the same. There is no shame or weakness in seeing someone to help you with your depression.

Anyways... now that I have that out... I have mixed feelings about this. For the example that I said about the car accident I can pretty much say that I believe that the fear that the anxious person experienced from the car wreck could be from evolutionary instinct. They went through a trauma and instinct tells them they should not do it again. While at the same time the person who is hardly effected is allowed to go on with their lives. Both actually are rather beneficial even in our modern world though in that example it does harm the anxious one. It would make sense if we evolved to avoid trauma or we called out for help in depression. However sometimes it gets to the point that it is almost too strong and when it interferes with our lives it then becomes a disease so in this subject I am sort of mixed. I think it depends on the situation. But very nice essay, Lindsay. Very thought provoking :)

#15 volycz

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Posted 18 May 2006 - 11:29 PM

If you ask me to speculate wildly, I would say that suicide rates today are far higher in the caveman days.

It wasn't because it was harder to kill yourself then compared to now, but rather i suspect that modern people have a greater tendency to over-think things, and more free time and leisure to do it. if you spend most of your life running from saber tooth tigers to stay alive, i bet you have no time to feel depressed and wonder what's the point of life!

It isn't any surprise that if you survey the brightest and best of us, among such eli ties we [quote]have a much higher percentage of people going mad, or even killing themselves.

Among the list of such brillant people who went insane include Godel (of Godel's incompletness theorem), Cantor (whose pioneering work on set theory and infinity enriched our understanding of Math), not to mention the tons of first rate philosophers who made going insane seem like it's the in thing to do.

I could go on and give you my other equally wild speculations on why moderns seem to get depressed more easily e.g increased communications allow greater ease of comparisons, so more people are aware that they aren't as good as they think . For example, you might be a hotshot programmer in your country, but if you look at the work done by some of the truly world classes greats..... So you might be a good singer, but watching tv,radio makes you aware that you are nothing compared to Celine Dion...

[quote]The Theory of Evolution has nothing to do with foresight, nor does this theory we're discussing.[/quote]
You misunderstand, of course I understand this point I was reminding you.

[quote]They are saying that it is a hampering process in modern life - not that it didn't exist hundreds of thousands of years ago. That it had a purpose back then, but does not really [/quote][quote]fulfill its purpose correctly anymore,[/quote]
really? Throughout your original post you keep saying that depression has a purpose, and because we don't understand the purpose we are acting wrongly, sure sounds to me you think it is fulfilling its purpose!

Isn't that why you advocate we understand the "root cause" instead of fighting depression with drugs and psychotherapy?


Also here you say
[quote]The POINT of the theory is that depression is an indicator to the community that something is wrong in an individual's life, so that the community may be forced to help that individual. Genetic therapy would be just like throwing drugs at it - it wouldn't solve anything.
[/quote]
Seems to me you are arguing that depression still serves it's point as an 'indicator to the community that something is wrong'! How is it not fulfilling its purpose correctly?

Do you think all depression is really a reasonable cry for help and is really about some subtle attempt to ask for help and that no one threating to kill themselves are serious? You didn't comment on my examples of people who are depressed for no reasonable explanation at all.

[quote]Although I am not sure what you mean by a feature in other organisms that are "don't cares" - but exaptation, I am familiar with.[/quote]
I chose expatation because it is a term some people might be familar with, to illustrate the idea that evolution does not have foresight and uses whatever materials are available and some of these 'material' was before then carrying out no useful purpose !

Strictly speaking even exptation doesn't go far enough to make my point, because it still refers to a feature that is useful, just one that it's origins have nothing to do with it use.

If you have read Gould's Structure of evolutionary theory, he goes on to make even greater distinctions , e.g "Franklins" and "militions"

By "don't cares" I'm referring to the fact that not every biological feature or aspect of organisms has to have a purpose. Jay Gould for example likes to talk about spandrels (which is a form of expation) , accidental side effects that have later being co-opted for useful purposes. The point I'm hammering in is not that some of them later become useful, but rather, they were initially neutral!

My problem with your original post is you seem to be tacitly assuming every trait has to have some evolutionay advantage or reason..

Exhibits A and B.

[quote]But sadness is one of those things that evolutionary psychology cannot define. There is no (obvious) benefit to being sad[/quote]
[quote]But an evolutionary advantage to depression is not something you would immediately see benefit to.[/quote]
This comes very close to falling into the adaptionist trap, the assumption that every biological trait *has* to have some evolutionary advantage. In fact, Some might be neutral (and of those some were later seized opportunistically for useful purposes) , some might be even maladaptive at times, but is worth the cost, while other times it might be wholly bad, but evolution still hasn't weeded it out yet.

[quote]While life expectancy was very low, and yes, it was easier to die *unintentionally* - suicide is a completely different thing to accidental death, as going against some very base instincts is a hard thing to do. [/quote]
Life in the past was in the words of a famous philisopher "brutish, ugly and short" IMHO if you think people who acted all depressed , sulky and refusing to do work were going to get good support from other people, I think you are delusional.

In the caveman days evolutionary struggles were far more intense than today, I suspect someone hurting himself this way in some subtle attempt to get help, would be at a disadvantage. Other groups of people who were not depressed or didn't have the tendency to do so would simply out produce the ones that had.

As you pointed out, only in today's world, where we are civilized, depression as a disguised evolutionary strategy for crying for help would work.

[quote]Even today, people get on top of tall buildings, threatening to jump - but most often, they do not jump, or worse, they accidentally fall. That is because that sort of thing is a much deeper instinct than "Don't drink poison". An instinct, which basically non-existant, and rather, people feel a fear of actual death because they know (through higher cognitive thinking) that they will die if they drink it, but their instincts don't know that; it only knows that the person is afraid. Still, very few people actually go through with it, and would be significantly less in those times, and thus that is how suicide fits this evolutionary theory.[/quote]
This is a pretty nice "just so" story, but unfortunately, there is a logical error in your thinking. You assume what your want to prove, and use it as proof for your theory.

You start off with the assumption suicide rates are higher now then in the past, then you 'explain' that assumption by saying caveman can't kill themselves because they have an instinct against it! Circular reasoning.

Besides what evidence do you have that suicide rates are higher now compared to 100,000 years ago?
[quote]However, your example would not fall under suicide, but rather, accidental death.[/quote]
Semantics. The point i was making is that you give the impression that depression was a cost free evolutionary strategy in the caveman days to attract help because it's harder to kill themselves back then, I simply point out that contrary to your arguments, I think in those days the cost of such schemes are in fact far more costly then today!

[quote]And the point of civilization is to thwart natural selection, do you not realise? [/quote]
Of course, I did, I was checking whether you did lol.

On the other hand here you say....
[quote]Now remember, this is all very radical, and is offensive to some - but the idea is not about being nice. It's about correctly treating a problem, i[/quote]
Correctly treating a problem = following what evolution dictates? :)
[quote]You seem to be under the impression that if scientists theorize about evolution, that they are saying that it's "okay". No one's ever said that, I'm not sure why you would think that.[/quote]
I'm sure the people who know what they are saying won't say that, but you come very very close to saying it.

Certainly, by demonising psychotherapy and the use of drugs with the term "throwing around drugs", "treating symptom" you give the impression that depression can be solved if everyone dropped everything they were doing and do a group hug or something with the depressed and that solves the problem.

You assume there is some real solvable realworld problem that causes the person to fall into depression and it's a matter of solving that problem and not that there is something wrong with the person.

You keep yelling about "social conflict", which sounds impressive but gives no concrete solutions at all on what to do.

[quote]By having society, by protecting the weaker individuals (who we could still benefit from in not so noticeable ways - like, intelligence),[/quote]
Minor point, but this is wrong. If intelligence would benefit us, then individuals who possess it are not "Weaker" evolutionary speaking. If they couldn't surivive without help (or charity), strictly speaking they aren't evolutionary fit, though I make no moral judgements of course.
[quote]Once again, you misunderstand evolutionary psychology. It would not simply be a "gene" that some people have. [/quote]
Most of what i wrote about gene therphy was satire of course, and yes, no one is dumb enough to suggest there is a single (or even a group of them) gene for depression ! Do give me some credit.
[quote]It is a "genetic behavior" that all people have - like, my example of a cat arching its back or a dog raising its hackles.
[/quote]

Talking about "genetic behavior" without talking about genes seems to be splitting hairs. Sure everyone is sophisticated enough to know that there is unlikely for there to be perfectly identifiable genes that map 100% to some arbitrary attribute we call X. But surely there is a genetic basis for it, calling it "genetic behavior" but refusing to acknowledge that genes are behind it seems to be counterproductive.

Or is this an attempt to head off the ghost of gentic determinism. :)
[quote]Of course, because not all people exhibit depression is one of the main arguments against the theory.[/quote]

Alternatively you are defining "Genetic behavior" to refer to behavior exhibited by *all* members of a given species. Personally, I think this is a useless distinction, since we can never tell the difference between genes that are in all of us, but not expressed because of the lack of the right conditions or behavior that is a subset of some members of a species because of alleles.

Besides classic papers on "Evolutionary psychology", refer to evolutionary strategies that have being observed, such as the classic paper on rape, but no one is saying that every man will rape of course!

Of course, one assumption is that under certain conditions most/many/all? man will do so, and in a very limited sense you could think of it as "genetic behavior" that lies in all of us but isn't expressed. But I doubt everyone believes that.

The same could hold for the genetic basis for depression. Certainly the fact that not everyone gets depressed doesn't mean it counts against the theory.



[quote]And our DNA analysis is no where near good enough to be actually able to locate that sort of thing. And the theorists are not saying, in any way shape or form, that gene therapy should be used. They would probably be quite aghast at the concept.[/quote]


I have no doubt of that. I was simply pointing out the uselessness of these wild speculations ,such that even if they were on the money, it would still be useless!

Besides you seem to agree that depression is in some cases mal-adaptive, in such cases, how would knowing the root cause of depression help?

[quote]The POINT of the theory is that depression is an indicator to the community that something is wrong in an individual's life, so that the community may be forced to help that individual. Genetic therapy would be just like throwing drugs at it - it wouldn't solve anything.[/quote]
This point is trivial even if it was true (and I don't buy all the wild speculations that have no shred of evidence behind them). Some people are depressed for shall we say "good" reasons, obviously it those cases, it's more of a social problem.

Then there are cases where people are just depressed for no good reason at all. You can give them all the support you can name, and they still feel depressed. What would you deep knowledge of evolutionary psychology suggest in that scenario besides "Throwing drugs at it?" LOL.. :)

Edited by volycz, 18 May 2006 - 11:43 PM.


#16 redlion

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Posted 20 May 2006 - 07:06 AM

Ugh. Personally, I think that sadness and depression exist to oppose happiness and joy. Its the old yin and yang theory. Without darkness, light would be undefined. On the emotional roller coaster that is life, you've got to have lows to compare the highs to, or else its all the same, no matter how high you go. Valleys and mountains...

#17 Guest_Analogué_*

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Posted 20 May 2006 - 01:23 PM

Ugh. Personally, I think that sadness and depression exist to oppose happiness and joy. Its the old yin and yang theory. Without darkness, light would be undefined. On the emotional roller coaster that is life, you've got to have lows to compare the highs to, or else its all the same, no matter how high you go. Valleys and mountains...


SEE!!! Yin and yang theory.

I wrote that in my first post. And she said I was wrong :(


<3 you Paddy.

#18 Guest_Casilla_*

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Posted 20 May 2006 - 05:34 PM

SEE!!! Yin and yang theory.

I wrote that in my first post. And she said I was wrong :(
<3 you Paddy.

What, you did not!

#19 redlion

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Posted 20 May 2006 - 08:48 PM

Err, I love you both, but I'm not getting in the middle of two women again. Ali and kim tried that... and then ali and suz... that was hell without the nicities (like bach) to comfort you.

#20 amyjia

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Posted 04 June 2006 - 12:15 AM

hmm.. what I think has in a way already been said, but I will post my thoughts anyway..

Ok.. I don't think Depression has evolved. I also don't think people's feelings have evolved. People have the exact same emotions now that they had millions of years ago. What has changed are people's environments and lifestyles. As Casilla was saying back in the hunter/gather period one depressed member would screw up he whole dynamic of the group. Today, a depressed teen can very well never be noticed at all until they do something extreme.

Back in the Hunter/Gather age, people were always moving around and everyone had a purpose, thus they didn't have to worry about paying bills (house notes, electric, water bill etc.) Nor did they have to worry about being fired from their jobs because everyone in the community was needed. With today's lifestyle, people do have these things to worry about which could lead to sadness, which could lead to depression. Once more I will say that I don't think that this means the actual feeling (emotion) of being depressed has evolved, it is just that there are different circumstances.

With Hunter/ Gather's they were always on the move because their food was on the move, so they didn't get emotionally attached to places, while people today are more like "Nesters" who stay in one place for long periods of time,and get very attached to places thus, changes, (for example moving) could cause the person to become depressed.

I do not believe depression is a disease, nor do I think people should be medicated for it. I think depression is usually just about security issues. Not feeling secure about yourself, not feeling secure about death, etc. If people paid more attention to one another and helped each other out, I think depression would be less prevalent.

1.Not feeling secure about yourself
If a person had someone to talk with and encourage them (maybe friend(s) or family), then that could prevent this. (I mean really that's all therapy is.)

2. Not feeling secure about death
Once more, having people close to you would really help with this I think. Someone to tell you that even though someone close to you has died, that you are still living and you must live your life to the fullest (also say something like (insert the dead person's/animal's name) would have wanted you to go on and be happy.

Basically like others have said, people need better coping skills. Some people can pick up these skills be themselves, but others need help and support from others, especially young people. In today's society, more attention should be put on actually giving more attention to depressed people rather than just medicating them.

#21 Ives

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Posted 04 June 2006 - 11:41 AM

It's pretty much just living, really. Just as people might have happier days than say, someone in the 1800's, but will also have sadder days. To top that, there is lower set standards than before. Doing a hard job such as construction usually helps maintain feelings because it requires stable control of yourself, where as something like working at McDonalds doesn't nessecarily need a huge grasp of yourself. and considering the bureaucracy nowadays, its no suprise that some people will have higher depression levels than hundreds of years ago.


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