264 replies to this topic

[Raui]

Well in that case Science, Religion or Both ? sounds like a more appropriate topic name.

[Jake]

Christian who merely believes.

Egg-friggin-zactly. Without proof or intelligent estimates, I believe it is useless.

EDIT: Heh, used 'believe' in my own statement. Feel free to switch it anytime with 'know'.

Edited by Jake, 24 August 2007 - 06:56 PM.

[pyke]

Egg-friggin-zactly. Without proof or intelligent estimates, I believe it is useless.

EDIT: Heh, used 'believe' in my own statement. Feel free to switch it anytime with 'know'.

What? xD

[nox]

I should rename this topic to "Science, Religion, or both?" Makes more sense anyways. If you were to ask this question to many of the top scientists you would probably offend them.

well first of all i agree to that it be changed, however to "Science vs Christianity?" since this topic is obviously only taking into account the christian rlegion or maybe "How should the US be run? Upon fact or chance?"

If you were to ask this question to many of the top scientists you would probably offend them.

that's true in some cases, but most of the time you need to stake a stand between the two as there's really no inbetween. that's because god creating the world by snapping his fingers, etc can't be proven by scientific facts or logic. im sure these scientists don't completely rule out religion as a possiblity, and should imo continue to do so until they have undeniable proof and facts that show otherwise. however its just silly to run countries and goverment based on chance and faith, because well its barking stupid dont you think

[Raui]

Yeah actually that is probably the most accurate topic name you could get for this topic. For what its worth I honestly don't think anyone can prove anyone wrong in this debate. Both sides have well-structured arguments and have their flaws for example. I look at it from this way, It always seems that science is poking a hole in religion however religion cannot poke a hole in science. Of course this is probably not intensional and is merely an observation of a few articles I read on NewScientist.

[nox]

It always seems that science is poking a hole in religion however religion cannot poke a hole in science. Of course this is probably not intensional and is merely an observation of a few articles I read on NewScientist.

that is because the bible is unchanging, while science continues to grow and expand everyday.

Why are we talking about running countries and states? Do you have a problem with Christianity and our government? If you're wondering why I'm asking all these questions it's kind of for my own research, it's not just Neocodex that I'm asking these on. I'm just interested in seeing how people can bring in certain things that seem to be completely off the topic of the discussion.

im sorry i thought this was one of the other million "is abortion right? "state vs church?" topics, but really in essence heads back to the science vs religion debate

By the way, do you mind using proper grammar? That hurt to read

no, bitch.

[nox]

That's fine, I tend to see that people who do not use grammar on forums also use such language, even if their trying to be "funny", or merely raising their "e-penis", so it makes sense

if anything, shouldn't my lack of forum grammar shorten my e peen? i mean, how many inches have you gained from that awsum grammar?

Edited by nox, 24 August 2007 - 07:12 PM.

[pyke]

OI! Keep on topic you lugheads.

[Raui]

I don't believe it's possible for religion to poke a hole in science as well. It sounds stupid to me. Why would I want to poke a hole in something I use so often?

Why is it that whenever theres a breakthrough in science that challenges the bible it seems that every religious figure has a different story to explain it.

[Raui]

Okay, Lemme go do some searching

[pyke]

Can you give some examples?

Evolution? I remember people being pretty pissed about that when it first came up!

[Akira]

The thing with God is that we have a 'God of the gaps' situation going on with him at all times. 500 years ago, Gods were used to explain everything. However, as we begin to realize that thunder is not caused by God's wrath and whatnot, the Gods start to dwindle. Notice that it is only when science cannot explain something that an exuberant Christian leaps forward and screams 'God did it!'. If anything, I sometimes find God to be the null statement that needs to be disproven, and even if it isn't, we simply say that there isn't enough evidence to disprove it, instead of accepting the null.

That sort of God shows intellectual laziness: like we gave up trying to rationalize why or how something works, so we say 'God did it' and then get angry whenever someone questions it.

Religion, however, is a totally different story. I can accept the possibility of a powerful spark to start this universal machine...but not necessarily a 'God'. You see, a God does not get formed unless a religion says it exists. A God is not worshiped until there are priests holding books written by men saying 'worship Him'. To worship one God is to condemn the rest, and the stakes are ridiculously high to do that.

For example, let's go with Christians. The gentlest Christian would claim their God to be the most loving and caring, yet if a small island tribe that had never even been given the chance to hear of a rumor of Christianity died out, would the Christian God let them into heaven? Or would he throw them in hell with the other nonbelievers? Furthermore, if he allowed them into heaven, then why would he burn those that were good in life but did not publicly praise him? If he threw them in hell, then how could he be considered loving? As you get to the more extreme Christians, they would be convinced that gays, slaves, Jews, etc. were all going to hell, regardless of their lifestyle.

So, until a God appears that does not need a mortal to deliver the message to us, until a God appears that EVERYONE can agree on, until a God appears that does not require we all group together and worship him (egotistical bastard o.O), I see no reason to be a believer. If this God is so mighty, he should be more than capable of proving his existence to me. If he can't even do something as simple as that, then he is lazy, wants me in hell, or really doesn't care what happens to us.

And honestly, while one remains constant, the other constantly changes. God's laws never change, despite how most of them are archaic and morally disturbing in this day and age. Science is never so egotistical...although I still think it to be too young and full of errors to be pitted against a deity. Give it another two hundred years or so, though, and God will be sitting in a tiny corner, with his faithful friends screaming that God obviously made the universe, since no one can prove otherwise.

EDIT: And to answer Josh's question regarding some examples of religion freaking out about science...

Go to the dark ages. Pretty much hell on Earth for science and art. The Church claimed that any attempt to say that the sun did not revolve around the Earth was like saying Jesus was not the messiah, and they imprisoned and killed anyone who disagreed with that claim. They also burned any books stating that the Earth revolved around the sun.

Edited by Akira, 24 August 2007 - 07:36 PM.

[Raui]

Oh and why is it that no religions co-exist with each other and they are all fighting. According to you there couldn't be any other god, this is the same with all religions. Why would God make people who plot his peoples demis ? Why would God make it possible to even believe there is another god ? Why would god make his people fight over something that doesn't exist ?

[pyke]

Oh and why is it that no religions co-exist with each other and they are all fighting. According to you there couldn't be any other god, this is the same with all religions. Why would God make people who plot his peoples demis ? Why would God make it possible to even believe there is another god ? Why would god make his people fight over something that doesn't exist ?

Power struggle. Most religions fight for supremacy, because it equals power

[Raui]

Okay that answers my first 2 questions. Why can't a Christian extremist get along with a Muslim extremist ?

[Jake]

Heh. Why do you have a presupposed mind that he has no evidence that backs up his belief? Do you have something personal against him or do you merely not like the Christian faith and believe that any evidence that backs it up must be false? Is there some reason why you instantly, without doing further research, or even asking any questions, went straight to saying he has no proof or intelligence estimates? I can play the same game. You have no proof how life as we know it started.

Link me to the sites saying they have proof that God exists. Until they prove that God exists, I assume the most logical explanation in evolution. Which sounds more believable?

One person/god/super artificial being created the world.

or

The world was created from some type of matter.

[Akira]

The problem with the 'God gave us freewill' statement is that, well...it can't really work with a God o.O

You see, a God is supposedly all seeing and all knowing, correct? If he cannot see everything and know everything, then he would be incapable of foreseeing things, and hence, several sections of the bible would be moot. In fact, there was an issue where God kept on hardening a certain Pharaoh's heart to stop him from letting a certain people go...that hardly sounds like free will.

But, I digress.

If God gave us freewill, then that means that God is already well aware of what we will do in life. Hence, it is not freewill, since we can't do a thing without him already knowing about it. So, God is basically seeing people like Hitler, then shrugging and saying "Eh, I want them to have freewill...so I guess millions of dead innocent people is okay." So, he's quite possibly one of the cruelest beings in existence. After all, God has allowed every single mass murderer to live on the premise that everyone needs that lull of 'choosing their own path', even though God should already know it if he is indeed an all powerful deity. If not all powerful, then why worship him?

[Jake]

I'll agree to link you to a website that proves God exists only if you link me to a website that explains how the universe as we know it was created first.

I will say it again. It seems more likely that the earth was made up from matter, not some random person pulling strings.

[Jake]

Where did the matter come from?

Who knows? There will probably never be an answer to this, but even so, I will not believe that it was made by a being.


(It could of been made by Chuck Norris.)

[Jake]

So in fact you utterly refuse to believe that the matter was created by a being? I am sorry to say that I am unable to discuss anything with you if this is truly what you believe.

Wait a minute, isn't that the point reversed what religious people try to get across? I may be stubborn, but that was just ridiculous. Also, I said it could of been made by Chuck Norris.

[Akira]

It is indeed true that previous civilizations used divine explanations for daily things, and it makes sense. Without the knowledge and tools we have today there practically was no other explanation. As we evolved our conceptions and ideas of God also evolved. It's not God that changed, it's our way of recognizing and understanding Him that changed.

And? Is it still punishable by death to light a fire on Sunday? According to God in the bible, it was. But...we certainly do it now. Could one argue that this malevolent God has been softened to go with our current lifestyle? After all, God instructed us on how to beat our slaves with a rod: it's okay so long as they are still alive after three days. So...should we own slaves? Should we beat them so cruelly that they can die in four days? God said yes back then...and since we have no other source besides the good book, where else can we pull his word from?

It can be labeled as laziness, but you must realize that not every joe on the street wants to find out all the secrets of our universe, so it's rather unfair to simply say they were lazy. Luckily we did have joes on the street with the idea of uncovering this secrets, and look where we are today.

What is sad is that this intellectual laziness becomes violence. The average Joe is comfortable with his beliefs, and when something comes to shake that faith, he grabs a weapon and lashes out. Too many people have been murdered because of a God, or because of their specific beliefs in God, or because their ideas questioned God. Even today, most atheists who publish books get tons of death threats. What frightens me is that this every day joe will do whatever they can to stop the joes that want to uncover secrets.

Here's the problem, you speak in a presupposed mind. You assume that there is no divine nature to the Bible and therefor you are able to make such conclusions that God only exists because people say He does. It is indeed possible for God to exist without man saying so. Note that you lost me a little there, so if I misunderstood your point feel free to correct me.

Here is my problem: The bible was written down over one hundred years after the stories supposedly took place. Ever played the telephone game? A single sentence gets changed by ten friends in under ten minutes. Imagine entire stories being spoken to strangers who were compelled to share it years later. These stories are definitely not the originals. Why would God wait for his word to be published? Besides, I hardly find the bible to have 'divine nature' when it bothers to point out that a man laying with another man is despicable. God is a little too obsessed with sex, in my opinion. Of course, I stated that a God COULD exist. However, I doubt the existence of any God that has a bunch of little converters racing about to either convert or kill the nonbelievers.

God is a loving God, but he is also a fair God. There are so many scriptures in the Bible that portray this message, and it's for people who ask the same questions you just asked. You must understand that God is a divine being, so complex and advanced that we are incapable of understanding Him.

I'm gonna stop you right in the middle of the paragraph for that. Is he really so complex? Then how is it that Christians can come to me and claim to know exactly what he wants from them, exactly what is right and wrong, and exactly whom is going to hell? The problem with saying that we can't understand God is that religion automatically assumes that you DO understand God once you worship in their church. The books make it seem pretty straightforward. So, if no one understands him, then why the hell do so many people assume that I am completely wrong? After all, for all you know God could be a total prick, since he is so complex and advanced. He made plenty of ways to kill us off, after all.

What we humans may portray as innocent might not be the same with God. Now don't get confused here and think I'm saying that a person who does a lot of good in their life is actually doing bad too God. Because of free will God is unable to force us to do anything, and therefor we have the choice to deny Him. If we deny God, how could we goto heaven? Denying God is the "ultimate sin", the one that can never be forgiven because it's impossible to be forgiven. Without knowing Jesus your sins cannot be washed away, and your on a straight path to hell. Now the whole idea of "what if they never heard", that's a faith thing. There is no way that anyone could prove whether or not a person who is dead ever actually heard the Gospel. There's simply no way, and it's foolish for both sides to try and use the argument.

Alright. I can therefore prove God to be the ultimate prick, then. I donate frequently to worthy causes, I help out those that need it, and I am a generally good person. If your God is real, he will take me and throw me into hell without a second thought, all because I didn't believe in Jesus. And you know what? That makes your God a terrible, immoral creature that is no better than a dictator. After all, I didn't spend my life in servitude to him, so he chooses to torture me forever. Seems rather odd...we are granted free will, but we don't get to go to heaven until we toss that away and obey him. So, one could argue that free will is sinful.

Actually, there are tribes that live in the rainforests that have very limited access to the outside world, and they don't know anything about outside religions. So...no answer to that?

And that's where faith comes in. I myself have done a lot of research into Christianity (I'm an apologetic) and based on the evidence have come to the conclusion that God does in fact exist. The thing is, if God were to reveal Himself, so that we could see Him, we would all die. Simple as that. It is mentioned many times in the Bible that it is impossible to "see" God. Now in terms of doing things so that we knew He existed. He does it all the time. He has me sitting here telling you He exists. There are many times where God speaks to a person, and to be honest it's a very personal thing and nearly impossible to debate.

Sadly, God is dead silent for me. He certainly never speaks to me, and he never gives me a sign. Meanwhile, literally hundreds of Christians have approached me in different ways. I've been sworn at, attacked both physicially and verbally, and I've had people be civilized. I was once urged by a Christian to find a faith-any faith, because that was better than being an atheist. So, I tried many out. And I mean many. I settled on the Egyptian religion for a while, but the Christian was so furious that I had not chosen their religion that I dropped the religion in an instant. It's a cult, it's a fad. Everyone wants you to join them, and if you refuse, they get pissed off and alienate you. Religion just takes it a step further and claims infinite and horrible torture if you don't follow them.

If you're referring to the Old Testament laws you should do some research into the "New Covenant." I won't bother explaining it because I figure if you actually care enough you'll go research it yourself, but essentially it explains how the old testament laws are no longer relavent in today's society.

The Old Testament in general is completely irrelevant in today's society, hands down. But Jesus said some no-nos to. He said that you could not follow him until you hated your family, until you left them behind. He did not want to help a woman because she was a 'filthy gentile'. I can't remember anymore off the top of my head, but I could probably provide more.

Indeed, though it's a bit off topic. We were talking about religion changing because of science, which I already explained is a good thing to me.

Well, religion has certainly changed since that day. Now, they don't have absolute power and can't burn books or order people be put to death.

If I get the chance, I'll post this thing that I found...it pretty much covers several fatal flaws with Christianity...

Here's a really good analogy of God and time, quoting C.S Lewis: "Imagine time as being a line on a piece of paper, now imagine God being that piece of paper". As you can see He exists everywhere at once, and can see everything at once. Now, God never said "Your life on earth will be heaven, no crazy men like Hitler, no cruel people bombing entire nations for political reasons," etc. etc. Just because God saw it happen, does not mean He was in fact responsible for doing it. It would be against God's nature to do such a thing. Here's the thing. Just because God knows everything in time, does not mean we do not have free will. You can choose to get up and go outside or instead stay at your computer right now. Indeed God knows what choice you're going to make, but are you really saying "Well I can go outside, but I'm going to stay at my computer because my life has been predetermined for me to stay at my computer at this specific time and day." So because God sees all, does not mean our free will is removed, He simply sees the choices we make as man utilizing our free will.

The problem is that God already knows your choice. Hence, it is control of free will, because he made you with this specific timeline. Even if you changed it, God knew before your birth that you would. So, to put it in easier terms...

Imagine that your friend already knew everything that you would do for your entire life. You say "I'll go left" and he says "I knew you would", and then you defiantly state "then I'll go right" and he says "I knew you would do that upon me saying that". The fact is that no matter what choice you make, he already knows what you will do. Your entire life is already mapped out, therefore, you have no free will. Every motion is already known, and every change in motion is already known. So, even if you did something unexpected, like say, going outside even though you were supposed to be on your computer at that exact instant, it would already be known that you were going to do that. Saying that it's free will is like saying a mouse in a maze has total free will, even though that maze has just one path with no deviations, and even if a deviation is found, the end result is the same.

Honestly it's a very hard concept to understand, I won't lie. I cannot honestly give a full hearted explanation on the subject of free will. It does not instantly mean I am wrong though, because my thoughts and opinions are constantly changing.

True, true. It is a tough concept to grasp...and I am getting tired, haha. It's getting close to 1:00 AM, so I had best get to sleep before I stop making any amount of sense o.O

EDIT: I wouldn't claim to refuse to discuss with someone when you believe in a God. After all, while they may or may not assume that matter started everything, you not only assume, but claim to be entirely positive that the mightiest being in all of the universe did not need a creator; that God was the causation. Admitting that is the same as admitting that matter came first...and honestly, until you can find a way to see the beginning of the universe, you cannot prove or disprove either. Personally, I would not be surprised if the creation of the universe was either an infinite loop of things being made, or that it always existed. These two things are just as reasonable as claiming matter suddenly collapsed and formed the universe, or that a supreme creator that we must worship that made everything specifically for humans always existed.

Edited by Akira, 24 August 2007 - 08:41 PM.

[Akira]

Please refer to the "New Covenant."

I am so friggin' tired of Jesus...but fine. I'll read it. I've read so many books on religion that I'm probably more versed than the average Christian o.O

It is indeed sad. The problem is you cannot directly relate this to religion. Religion had no control of the people who decided to react with violence. Just because one of many people react violently to something does not mean that something is instantly accountable for that person's actions.

Actually, I can relate this to religion. There are plenty of verses in most holy texts that demand nonbelievers be killed. If someone hears something enough, or if they are mentally unsound, it might sink in as fact that these nonbelievers need to die. Now, if you found a mentally unstable man that was reading a book that told him to kill all men that wore red ties, would you be surprised if he suddenly ran out and started killing men with red ties? Not really. Besides, this is not the cause of one or a few people. This is the cause of the Crusades, of the eventual collapse of Rome, of the Inquisition, of the Holocaust, and so on. That's a few more than 'one of many'.

Out of the blue, do you believe that Jesus was born on Christmas?

Here's the thing. You're assuming that the Bible is indeed divine when you step in this position, thus it's fair to ask if you believe God is capable of controlling His own word. Why would God let His own word be ruined by man? By the way, if you didn't notice, in your last sentence there you held God accountable for the "little converters running around killing people."

Well, if I claim it to be not divine, you wag your finger at me ^-^ Must I say 'let us assume' before everything? My point is still valid. If God was capable of controlling his own word, why would he literally form his word around that time period, but make the Old Testament, as you have admitted, morally useless in this day and age? If the NT is so much better, why even make the OT? And yes, I do hold God accountable. These men and women claimed to be the messengers of God, hence, they deliver his word. If he can't even be clear enough with his own followers to keep them from killing people, then he must be held accountable. Or should we not hold Osama accountable for telling his followers to go out and kill?

It's simple really, God gave us the Bible, that's how we know. If you didn't know the Bible is God's word. Simple as that, it's Him talking to us. Through reading the Bible we can see what God is like. You seem to be jumping around here. You said "he made," meaning that you think he purposefully made methods of death to kill people whereas it was man through free will that designed these methods of torture through stuff already placed here by God. And I'm sorry to hear you think of my God like that, unfortunately I believe nothing I say will convince you otherwise.

Why did God give it to a specific people, but give other people false texts? Why would God literally shun thousands of cultures? Didn't God care about Asia? After all, they existed during the Christian's rising years, and Europe didn't pass its' faith over there for hundreds of years. Did those generations get screwed by God? God had to create influenza and whatnot; I was speaking of the biological ways that we can be brutally slaughtered. It's just later on that we made weapons and stacked up on the list.

And don't feel dismayed; a LOT of Christians have tried and failed to convert me, or even convince me that their God is logical.

Again, in order to state that a person never had the chance to hear about God would require knowing everything about that person's life, from the time they were born to the time they died, which we know is inhumanly possible.

Perhaps. But what we do know is that there isn't a single case of Christianity popping up anywhere without a Christian passing it on. If we are assuming your God is the right God, then we must consider the fact that if someone got a revelation of Christianity without ever hearing of Christianity that God would be pretty well proven. This is not the case, however. If we could find a way to monitor a person and seclude them from the rest of the world, we would probably see not see them worship every Sunday and praise Jesus.

Yeah, if you can provide some scripture of this it would help me out immensely.

I seem to have misplaced my bible. But, give me a day or two and I'll find them, haha.

Very true. And as long as it's not a huge list of claimed contradictions in the Bible I would love to see it

It isn't ^-^ It actually has several different things on it. I thought it was nifty.

Okay, it's 1:00 AM...I'm gonna stop making sense now, haha.

I'll warn that I am rather passionate about this topic, as Christianity has been a rather painful dagger in the heart for me multiple times. If this gets too far off topic, we could always continue it via PM. I enjoy debating like this, heh.

[Raui]

Go to the dark ages. Pretty much hell on Earth for science and art. The Church claimed that any attempt to say that the sun did not revolve around the Earth was like saying Jesus was not the messiah, and they imprisoned and killed anyone who disagreed with that claim. They also burned any books stating that the Earth revolved around the sun.

Yet another scenario where the bible has had to form around science.

Can you define what you mean when you say "Get along?" It can mean multiple things.

Yeah I know it can and I mean they don't get along in any way.

Josh you referred to the "New Covenant." this is an example of religion having to bend around science. If religion was the domineering force then Science would have to bend around Religion however it doesn't.

[Raui]

Why is it that monkeys don't seem to worship a god then ? If god created all, he created monkeys. Monkeys don't worship him, therefore they don't have mass killings because of religion. I have to ask you one small question. Are you smarter than a monkey ?

[Freddy]

Because monkey's do not have spirits. If a monkey dies it does not go to heaven or hell. Am I smarter than a monkey? Well you would have to define "smarter." I would hope I am smarter than one though

Where does it say a monkey doesn't have a spirit.
Define spirit....


*Just thought i would butt in