82 replies to this topic

[ZERO]

NO FLAME ZONE

Ok, well there have been plenty of topics on homosexuality but none specifically for Christianity vs. Homosexuality.

So here is my theory:


In the Bible it says that everyone is a sinner, your born with sin. If you accept God, you are not neccessarily 'sin-free', but he has forgiven you for that sin. If you accept Him as your personal Lord and savior, your going to Heaven.

As being human, we are of a sinful nature, and God says that every sin is equal as a sin, implying that murder is just as bad as lying. If He states that in the Bible, and He also states that homo-sexuality is a sin. Then homosexuals will go to Heaven seeing as how every day, we end up lying or cheating or doing something of a small sort of sin, and being that all sins are the same, homosexuality is the same as lying, cheating, or stealing.

Debate

(If theres already been a topic exactly like this, forgive me lol)

[dolphinbomb]

This isn't going to end well.

[nox]

I couldn't really tell what point you were making, so I hope that was it

i think the idea of his post was basically countering ur last point:

So, being a homosexual and a Christian at the same time is almost contradicting. Yes they believe in Jesus as their Lord and Savior, but at the same time they contradict the very foundation Christianity was setup on.

meaning that yes christianity was founded on beliefs that homosexuality is wrong, but just as much as it was on murder/stealing/lying. so as a rebuttal to your post using the point he was trying to get across....can someone be a christian if they lie?


and btw, i have a question for anyone who can answer it; does it say homosexuality is wrong in the old testament?

[ZERO]

Exactly..Every sin is an equal sin, I could find the verse that said that.

Not only does it condemn homosexuality in the Bible though, but condemns just about every other sin (10 commandments does a pretty good job of that). So why would someone doesnt follow the 10 commandments (which no one does) get to go to Heaven, but a homosexual who also doesnt follow the same commandments not get to go to Heaven?

I see, well I was kind of attempting to explain that as well. Yes you can still be a Christian and sin, but the Bible clearly defines that sin is wrong (it's death), and therefor what you are doing IS wrong. So my conclusion would be you can still be Christian and sin (because we all sin), but just be reminded that there is hardly any mercy for sin, Paul clearly stated in Galations to kick all fornicators, adulterers, etc. out of the church, and have nothing to do with them.

Yes, but it also says that Jesus will forgive all your sins. We still continue to lie and steal and do other sins everyday, just as everyday a homosexual is still gay.

Edited by Lunchbox, 09 April 2007 - 09:30 PM.

[ZERO]

Here's the problem. First of all, a Christian who murders and a Homosexual who lusts after a guy with both still goto heaven, as long as they believe in Jesus as their Lord and Savior and ask for forgiveness, they are fine. Now, Jesus clearly states that one should read and follow the doctrine of the Bible. So, we can concluding that Homosexuality is wrong. Now, let's kind of define homosexuality. A Homosexual is one who believes lusts for his/her own sex is okay, and that having a sexual relationship with them is also okay. Now, if one accepts these beliefs, then they are clearly committing a sin, and should ask for forgiveness immediately and work to stray from homosexuality, for Jesus clearly states that surely the man who strives for Him shall reach him, meaning if you strive to abandon homosexuality, it will be done.

One should not be "okay" with being a homosexual, they should strive to abandon it.

Yes..But what about theives, cheaters?

Cheating is a sin, and people know its wrong, yet alot of times they do it..Doesnt mean they are going to go to hell..Not all people can stop what they are doing like that.

[nox]

Paul clearly stated in Galations to kick all fornicators, adulterers, etc. out of the church, and have nothing to do with them.

normally i wouldn't challenge any of this because you know far more about the bible than i do, however i have read quite a lot about the controversy of the apostle paul. there are a lot of contradictions between paul & jesus which makes me wonder if what he teaches was truly the word of jesus. even our third president of the united states had said

One of the most famous critcisms comes from Thomas Jefferson, who wrote in a letter to James Smith, that "Paul was ... the first corrupter of the doctrines of Jesus."

even without all of these contradictions, didn't jesus as well as paul preach love and forgiveness? i think that would conflict with excommunicating people


i suggest you read some of the articles about this if you havent already

http://www.wordwiz72.com/paul.html
http://voiceofjesus....aulvsjesus.html
http://www.carm.org/.../Jesus_Paul.htm
http://debate.org.uk...eo/jes-paul.htm

[nox]

My point is that one should not be "okay" with being homosexual, they should strive to abandon it as it is a sin, and Jesus teaches us to abandon sin and follow Him.

but didn't you just say being homosexual & christian contradict one another?

2 Timothy 3:16-17:
Thus, scripture is literally the "Word" of God, it is authoritative (Isiah 55:11), and we must abide by it, even the teaching's of Paul.

okay, but what about when jesus and paul teach two different things?

[nox]

I said it was "basically" a contradiction, meaning it was still possible, but the Bible clearly refutes the idea of it ever being "okay".

I'm not aware of where they teach two different things, can you give me some examples please?

http://voiceofjesus....aulvsjesus.html has line for line contradictions

[nox]

Honestly, I don't take links to sites that have claimed overwhelming contradictions, because it would take much more time than I have to shift through them all, but reading through the first few it looks like a joke.

[12] the night is far gone, the day is at hand.
[8] Take heed that you are not led astray; for many will come in my name,
saying, . . . `The time is at hand!' Do not go after them.

Can we not conclude that day and time are of the same thing?

[13] And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who possess the Spirit.
[17] Sanctify them in the truth; thy word is truth.

Taken out of context, Jesus is talking to God in 17, and given the Trinity, this is not a contradiction.

[9] For to this end Christ died and lived again, that he might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.
[38] Now he is not God of the dead, but of the living;

In 9 dead means sin. In 38 God is mentioned, in 9 Lord is mentioned, what 9 is saying is that Jesus died for both the sinful and clean.

I could go on, but I would prefer you form your own argument for me to refute

4. On the sum of the commandments:

5. On whom God has mercy:

6. On forgiveness of trespasses:

[nox]

the bolded sections of the website. and yea im going to sleep too

[Christopher Robin]

Christianity is bullshit if it says that lying is as bad as murder

[ZERO]

Christianity is bullshit if it says that lying is as bad as murder

lying is just as bad as a murder because they are both sin. Any sin is just as bad as any other sin committed..No sin is any great or less severe than another.

And @Alias, those people who suffer from mental disabilities (a few whom I know) simply cant change themselves. The point im trying to make is that if no one sin is greater than the other, and say the non-homosexual saved group goes to Heaven, but the Homo-Sexual saved group doesnt, is wrong.

[Christopher Robin]

But it still isn't true...

[Tetiel]

It is very hard to accept that lying is as bad as murder because to the human world the results of lying are far less usually than murder, you see. That is why the bible also has a set of punishments that are not equal for this. They are equal in God's eye, but not the Earth's eye, you see. Does that make a bit more sense? God dictates that there MUST be a more harsh punishment for the crime, but as far as he sees it... as sin is a sin is a sin as it is spiritually, however immortal and mortal consequences are on different levels alltogether. You shouldn't compare the two as the same thing as it's like comparing apples and oranges, eh? I hope I helped make it easier to understand.

Anyways... I believe that sins are sins for a very good reason and historically this is true. There are many things in the older books in the bible that were changed after Jesus's time for a reason. For example Kosher food typically forbids food that is literally unclean and those foods and food combinations were at high risk for giving the people food poisoning and other parasites and diseases. Pork for one often carries a parasite that if not cooked properly can make someone severely ill. Kosher law also disallows shellfish and scaleless fish such as eel for reasons being that these can often be poisonous if not properly regulated because of algae blooms or other bacteria. People could get easily sick from all of those foods so absolutely it was needed at the time for people to not eat those foods if possible. Today now we can properly cook foods and it is no longer as dangerous as it was previously so they can be eaten and for that reason I believe that they were made "clean" foods. Another good example is the skin diseases that people avoided like the plague. Before there were some infections that were spreadable so therefore it was needed for the rule which states that people with this skin disease when entering towns and villiages must scream out "SKIN DISEASE SKIN DISEASE!" so people would know. And now we no longer are needed to do such a thing. I think it is possible that homosexuality could have been made illegal by God for population reasons. I am not sure on this but I do believe it is possible that it might have been so I for now am neutral on the subject and I hope that God can provide a sign that states if it is truly right or wrong and to still be followed today as many things are not. It is just extremely hard to come to a decision seeing the evidence in the bible as I have stated above, so many laws have been abolished because they are no longer needed.

But... this brings up another point. Why is it that homosexuality is such a big issue? In the bible even looking at a woman who is not your wife with lust is a sin and I believe many men do that and partake in this. Yet these men also consider themselves Christian. And what of those who look at pornography often and mastrubate to it? Are they not on the same level as homosexuals if homosexuality still remains to be a sin? What of the gamblers, the substance abusers, the pregnant teenagers? The church does condemn their behavior, but they still accept them just the same. And as far as cheaters go, I do believe that pretty much every person at this site who uses our programs are probably sinning too and are constantly sinning, and programmers who make the programs are helping them sin, aren't they? But they still continue it anyways and some consider themselves good Christians and since they are still partaking in this activity and still considering themselves Christians are they not the same in the eyes of God on the same level as homosexuals who consider themselves Christians? This is, of course considering the idea that cheating on neopets is equivalent to the real world as doing something illegal in order to gain money as the mentality is the same - greed. And that is a sin, is it not?

I don't expect any clear answers to my statements are really it is almost impossible for humans to state facts about what God truly means as the bible can be interpreted in so many ways so it is just very hard to know what is right sometimes and what is wrong, but it is just really something to think about. Enjoy reading the long ass essay xD

[redlion]

Yes..But what about theives, cheaters?

Cheating is a sin, and people know its wrong, yet alot of times they do it..Doesnt mean they are going to go to hell..Not all people can stop what they are doing like that.

Your comment brought to my mind the concept of pathological liars, and pathological thieves. These people have no choice but to lie, to steal. They've got a magpie quality to them; some items just attract them to steal, and they do it. They can't help it, and they recognize that it is wrong, but they're still committing it conciously.

Same with pyromaniacs, except starting fires isn't directly stated as a sin.

My point is that one should not be "okay" with being homosexual, they should strive to abandon it as it is a sin, and Jesus teaches us to abandon sin and follow Him.
I know plenty about it, but one must believe the inspiration of the Bible:

2 Timothy 3:16-17:
Thus, scripture is literally the "Word" of God, it is authoritative (Isiah 55:11), and we must abide by it, even the teaching's of Paul.

My understanding is that the bible is a collection of books that were written by men. Men. Not God, men. Until the day that you find a book written in God's own hand, the bible is, and always will be, a book written by the hand of Man.

Now, there are portions of the bible (coming exclusively from the old testament) that have historical and traditional weight as actually coming from God. I.e, the ten commandments and the telling of the wars in Samuel and other books, but the majority of the book was penned after the birth of Christ (well, technically after his time on Earth, so 30~ years of difference). The portion of the bible referred to as the Torah or the Pentateuch are the only books of the bible that could literally be called the Word of God, as they are the closest we've got to hearing exactly what came into Moses' mind when he wrote them. Other prophets might have also heard the word of God, but what did they write down? Mostly incoherent prophesies about the coming of the Messiah, most of which were so vague that the vast majority of Hebrews did not believe that Christ was the Messiah when he finally did come.

In addition to being vague or irrelevant in many cases, major portions of the bible simply could not be attributed to God. For instance, the book of Nehemiah (rarely quoted, and for good reason) details the construction of the wall in Judah, a province of Israel. Most of the book details the problems they faced, the pains they took to build it, and the goodwill that Nehemiah showed to the people of Israel. It is more of a personal story of accomplishing a goal than it is a glorification to God. It is not, as the Torah is, a manual for how one is to live one's life. It is not, as the Torah is, a description of how to worship your God. It IS however, a description of a selfish egotistical man, obsessed with rebuilding a useless wall, which was much opposed, for no real reason. A literal translation of the bible allows for HIS story to become the word of God, simply because it was included in the text.

Speaking of which, who put together the bible? Was is Jesus? Certainly not, as many, if not all of the books of the New Testament were written after his death. Was it Paul? Nope, he died of crucification (upside down, by the way). It was the council of Nicaea. A group of men, many of whom were not Christian, including Roman Emperor Constantine, got together to create the original Bible (as opposed to individual books, much the way that other literature was written) in its entirety. THEY chose which books went in, and which did not. They specifically chose to exclude books, such as the Gospel according to Thomas, and the Gospel according to Mary Magdalene because they did not agree with the picture they wanted to paint. For instance, did you know, that until the council of Nicaea, it was not generally accepted that Jesus of Nazareth was the son of god? In fact, many Christians (loose term) were persecuted for their belief that Christ was simply a good teacher. The Arians (not related to Aryans) and the Meletians were groups that were specifically outlawed by the now 'catholic' church as heretics because they didn't believe as Constantine did. Which is ironic, considering that Constantine wasn't even a Christian until his death bed. Well past the Council of Nicaea, it was recorded that he worshiped in a temple of the sun god Helios. Kinda funny to find out that the final version of your bible was put together by a guy that wasn't even Christian, isn't it? Eusebius reports that Constantine was baptized only shortly before his death in 337.

My point is thus: Taking the entirety of the Bible as the literal word of God is illogical.

Edit for spelling errors.

Edited by pink ladylion, 10 April 2007 - 01:28 PM.

[A Silent Soliloquy]

I think you are not understanding what AliasXNeo is saying.

He is not saying that only homosexuality is bad and you should stop. He is saying that homosexuality, aswell as stealing, lieing, prostitution, etc. are also sins and you should stop all of them.

Referring to people who cannot control their problem, their problem is God-given and as a result this will be forgiven. It is a test placed by God on the people and will not be counted as a sin for them.

I personally am a devout muslim but attending a cathloic school I have to take catholic courses and we do read the bible.

@pink: Remember the bible is written by many god-inspired men. Also the gospels have parables and the account of Jesus' exact words. The gospels are a recount of Jesus' life and what his lessons were. The gospel itself was written by god-inspired men but we must remember the lessons were said by Jesus.

Edited by AsHiKa, 10 April 2007 - 01:50 PM.

[redlion]

I think you are not understanding what AliasXNeo is saying.

He is not saying that only homosexuality is bad and you should stop. He is saying that homosexuality, aswell as stealing, lieing, prostitution, etc. are also sins and you should stop all of them.

Referring to people who cannot control their problem, their problem is God-given and as a result this will be forgiven. It is a test placed by God on the people and will not be counted as a sin for them.

I personally am a devout muslim but attending a cathloic school I have to take catholic courses and we do read the bible.

For the part about pathological liars, I'll concede to anyone that makes sense. I have absolutely no idea what happens to people whose natures force them to do something. But at the same time, isn't homosexuality forced upon people? I mean, I never made a conscious choice to be strait, and I imagine that its much the same for homosexual people. Correct me if I'm wrong here?

[A Silent Soliloquy]

There is a difference between the sub-conscious decision of sexuality and mental problems.

Granted there are some people who have a mental problem which chooses their sexuality and causes them to absolutely hate any sexual interactions with the gender that their mental problem is opposed to.

However the regular person, the subconscious decision can be overcome. You and I can go home tonight and just decide to be homosexual or heterosexual. This is the case with most homosexuals. They can overcome it similarily to overcoming smoking or a bad habit.

Edit: Take a look at my edit to the previous post.

Edited by AsHiKa, 10 April 2007 - 02:01 PM.

[Hawk]

Not only does it condemn homosexuality in the Bible though, but condemns just about every other sin (10 commandments does a pretty good job of that). So why would someone doesnt follow the 10 commandments (which no one does) get to go to Heaven, but a homosexual who also doesnt follow the same commandments not get to go to Heaven?

Because the homosexual knows his/her ways, makes no attempts to change their ways and does not ask for forgiveness.

[A Silent Soliloquy]

Because the homosexual knows his/her ways, makes no attempts to change their ways and does not ask for forgiveness.

Lets also give benefit of the doubt and say some cannot change their ways but they are forgiven because god made them as such. However for the rest, I agree with you and say they either make a pity attempt or do not make an attempt what so ever.

[A Silent Soliloquy]

Sorry Redlion, but I think you completely missed the point of this topic. In order to stay on topic I will not refute your point, but if you wish to continue please feel free to PM me and I will kindly talk to you on MSN, somewhere where I can give quick answers. Please try to stay on topic next time

I have the opinion that this is on topic as it debates the truth of the Bible which would therefore change the perspective of christianity vs homosexuality.

Imagine St. Paul or an apostle/disciple were homosexual. I would think they would not include anything about homosexuality in the bible if they were the authors. Now image that the real authors were homophobic and made up things about homosexuality.

[Cript]

I'm too lazy to read the rest of the posts...sorry, I have a headache.

The reason our belief is that a homosexual can't go to heaven is that in order to accept Jesus as your savior and gain salvation, you have to be repentant. A homosexual is willingly and knowingly sinning constantly without repenting. It's the same reason suicidal people go to hell as well.

[Nick]

Well, the first thing is to clarify that homosexuality is a sin.
Now, the keyword is lie here:
Now, this word is also used in several other places:
From these we can conclude that lie commonly meant to have sex, like common slang "I got laid".

Okay, you've quoted the bible. Are you aware that a few pages later it says that eating shelfish is a sin as well? Both of those come from Leviticus, and both must be equally truthful. So if you're going to go by the good book you best go by all of it.

I want this to stop.

Look, the bible also says God made each of us in his image, which means he knew what we were going to be like in life and who we were, what are minds were like, even sexualities. What you guys are saying by saying who I love is a sin then you are saying that God made a mistake, and he doesn't.

[Nick]

This is ridiculous.
To be honest I don't give a rat's ass what you think of me, and I will continue to suck cock and take it up the ass as long as I please. The funny thing is, religion cannot dictate jack shit anymore because that's what we call separation of Church and State: what prevents women from being burned alive for being "witches." What you're saying is on the basis of a book that was written hundreds of years ago. The bible is out of date and doesn't pertain well to modern society. Read Tetiel's post.

Anyway, if you want a Theocracy move to the middle east.

Oh, and just so you know, I do go to church every Sunday, and I do pray, I do believe in God, but I am simply going on the basis of love.

Alias, what you preach is hate, pure hate.

[Waser Lave]

Slightly off-topic but doesn't the bible also say that people shouldn't eat pork? I bet that doesn't stop most Christians from eating pork...

Leviticus 11:something i think it is (i could be wrong, it's been a while since i looked at the bible ).

Everybody sins, most people do it daily by lying and show no signs of changing and yet people here are saying homosexuality is a sin because they don't seek to change. It's hardly right to pick and choose which things you want to recognise as sins because they suit your opinions.