24 replies to this topic

[redlion]

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

There it is. What are your thoughts on it?

Is there a boundary to what a private citizen or a citizens group could own in terms of firearms?
Does the ATFB have the right to seize firearms from us citizens?
Does anyone else think it would be outright awesome to own a cannon?

[Waser Lave]

Archaic laws ftw.

[Frizzle]

You need guns because people have guns.

Stupid Americans.

[pyke]

I'm pretty sure the founding fathers hadn't had the kind of weapons gun nuts own in mind.

[Mr. Hobo]

I'm pretty sure the founding fathers hadn't had the kind of weapons gun nuts own in mind.

+1. Owning rifles and similar weapons should be legal but if someone shouldn't be able to own a tank or mount a machine gun on their car

[Tetiel]

You need to look at the original intent. They were under oppression by British soldiers at the time. They wanted the new citizens to have the right to protect themselves and help with the revolution if need be. Really, though, not needed anymore. I think it's fine for hunting purposes, but I'm not fond of hand guns.

[Frizzle]

You need to look at the original intent. They were under oppression by British soldiers at the time. They wanted the new citizens to have the right to protect themselves and help with the revolution if need be. Really, though, not needed anymore. I think it's fine for hunting purposes, but I'm not fond of hand guns.

That's because you have alot of black people in the country and black people are more likely to kill someone.

"Of 6,899,895 whites, for example, 240 of them are murderers. That is a rate of 3.5 per 100,000. (Without knowing a person's race, that rate was 5 per 100,000, which is borne out in the rightmost column of the table.) Now look at the column for Blacks. The rate there is 19.7 per 100,000."

[Tetiel]

That's because you have alot of black people in the country and black people are more likely to kill someone.

"Of 6,899,895 whites, for example, 240 of them are murderers. That is a rate of 3.5 per 100,000. (Without knowing a person's race, that rate was 5 per 100,000, which is borne out in the rightmost column of the table.) Now look at the column for Blacks. The rate there is 19.7 per 100,000."

Ummm what. First off, could you quote the source for that? Secondly, that's not just America. England has quite a few people of African descent as well. From what I understand they're mostly from areas like Jamaica and Barbados. It's actually the same thing with Canada, at least in Toronto.

Anyways, if that is true, and it isn't from a biased source against certain races, how much of that has to do with poverty? While I don't like it as an excuse, being under the poverty line has been known to increase the crime rate. Several minorities in America are more likely to be under the poverty line than whites as I'm certain you're already aware of. I'm not going to get into why as I don't think anyone on the board is actually qualified to state reasons beyond just their own ideas, but it is a fact that needs to be factored in.

Can I get the whole quote of that, though? I'd love to read that... it sounds like an essay or article.

[Frizzle]

http://www.americant...sed_reason.html

Yeah we do have a large following of african or Jamaican immigrants in this country, but their crime is mostly low scale drug dealing or specifically in Nigerians, scamming, difference is, because America's retardation in gun laws more people end up dead instead of losing some money or being exposed to weed.

And can you really link MURDER to poverty? Theft, drugs, prositution and even assault you can, but we're talking about poor blacks in ghettos here. Not experience assassins etc..

[Tetiel]

http://www.americant...sed_reason.html

Yeah we do have a large following of african or Jamaican immigrants in this country, but their crime is mostly low scale drug dealing or specifically in Nigerians, scamming, difference is, because America's retardation in gun laws more people end up dead instead of losing some money or being exposed to weed.

And can you really link MURDER to poverty? Theft, drugs, prositution and even assault you can, but we're talking about poor blacks in ghettos here. Not experience assassins etc..

It was an interesting article. Thank you for linking me to it. I wish they'd put the statistics for say... hispanics and asians as well. I think I can probably understand why exactly this is, though. It's probably linked to gangs which are linked to poverty and ghettos. So there can be some relationship there. I don't know about blacks, but I know there is a gang where I used to live called Mexican Pride which forces new members to commit a crime. Two teenagers decided to choose murder and killed a local gym teacher. I imagine gang violence makes up for a huge number of the murders.

[nox]

The Color of Crime, a New Century Foundation study based on federal crime reports, has found significant differences in violent crime rates for different racial and ethnic groups. Blacks, for example, are many times more likely to commit crimes of violence against whites than vice versa. Of the approximately 1,700,000 interracial violent crimes involving blacks and whites reported every year, blacks commit 90 percent and whites commit only ten percent. Blacks are therefore more than 50 times more likely than whites to commit interracial crimes of violence. The differences are even greater for multiple-offender interracial crimes, with blacks 100 to 250 times more likely to be involved in gang attacks on whites than the reverse.

Some people may argue that blacks attack whites because they expect them to be carrying cash or valuables. However, fewer than 20 percent of black attacks on whites are robberies; rape and assault do not usually have economic motives.

There is more black-on-white violent crime than black-on-black violent crime. When blacks commit violence they attack whites 50 to 55 percent of the time. When whites commit violence they attack blacks only two to three percent of the time.

poverty is a poor excuse tetiel

http://www.solargene...acialcrime.html

Edited by nox, 13 April 2009 - 07:23 PM.

[Melchoire]

Laser puts it best. Old fucking law, has no meaning today, no one had machine guns in mind, blah blah blah.

Spoiler! --Click here to view--

predicts simon's response: "The proletariats need the guns for the inevitable revolution"

[Mr. Hobo]

He already posted something along those lines, saying that when the goverment started controlling weapons they started wiping out non-reactionaries.

[redlion]

Personally, I just want the cannon.

[Tetiel]

poverty is a poor excuse tetiel

http://www.solargene...acialcrime.html

I'm not stating poverty is the only thing I was more just wondering if poverty COULD be a factor.

[Ives]

If we're going to have an income tax and eminent domain, then second amendment rights are completely fucking useless anyways. Nobody has the balls to make the system work anymore, so whats the point of making attachments to the constitution if people are fucking sheep? Let the self interested piggies die out to a wave of bland social democratic ideas. The stoics and cynics will thrive either way, although their breed may become a bit more incestuous.

[Melchoire]

If we're going to have an income tax and eminent domain, then second amendment rights are completely fucking useless anyways. Nobody has the balls to make the system work anymore, so whats the point of making attachments to the constitution if people are fucking sheep? Let the self interested piggies die out to a wave of bland social democratic ideas. The stoics and cynics will thrive either way, although their breed may become a bit more incestuous.

Man, I can never keep up with you

Edited by FlashGM, 14 April 2009 - 09:31 PM.

[MaidenOfMercy]

As much as I'd love to be stacked up with assault rifles to fight off the impending ninjas busting through the skylight and trying to take me hostage, the times when you'd actually need a gun are very rare and you're more likely to kill someone on accident. Most of us here can probably count the number of times we have needed a gun or will ever need one on one hand.

As for the right to bear arms... There really needed to be some clarification on whether or not that mean FRICKING EVERYONE. I don't think it did. It specifically says a militia. Why would it get that specific only to contradict itself in the next sentence? It means militia. So let's talk about militias instead of arming the entire city block

[nox]

As much as I'd love to be stacked up with assault rifles to fight off the impending ninjas busting through the skylight and trying to take me hostage, the times when you'd actually need a gun are very rare and you're more likely to kill someone on accident. Most of us here can probably count the number of times we have needed a gun or will ever need one on one hand.

As for the right to bear arms... There really needed to be some clarification on whether or not that mean FRICKING EVERYONE. I don't think it did. It specifically says a militia. Why would it get that specific only to contradict itself in the next sentence? It means militia. So let's talk about militias instead of arming the entire city block

when it says militia it does mean everyone.. at the time every able bodied man would be expected to join the militia. but i guess i agree women shouldnt own guns anyways

[MaidenOfMercy]

when it says militia it does mean everyone.. at the time every able bodied man would be expected to join the militia. but i guess i agree women shouldnt own guns anyways

I'd buy that if they were all in military camos getting combat training from an experienced veteran for the impending Red invasion, but seeing as how most of the time when this issue is brought up it's so Big Al can have a dozen assault rifles in his basement for deer hunting or personal protection against the invisible communist ninjas that threaten him every day, I'm not buying it.

[Cyo]

now i haev gr8 idee
change guns 2 crossbows!
now wen sum1 attac u u have chanse 2 fite back becoze of longer relood time.

[Drakonid]

Against.
As Max Weber said:

a 'state' if and insofar as its administrative staff successfully upholds a claim on the monopoly of the legitimate use of violence in the enforcement of its order.

Weber, Max. The Theory of Social and Economic Organization (1964). p. 154

[Crayola]

Frankly, I think it promotes crime, and is a detriment to society.

Just because you can do something, doesnt mean you should.
In a perfect world, there would be no need for restrictions and censorship; however, it is irrefutable that this is not the case.
Where there are stupid people, stupid things will be done. Legality of firearms only provides such stupid people with tools to
express their stupidity in 'creative' ways.

Coming from a country other than America, I'm left wondering why America doesn't 'amend' such ridiculous laws.

It is obviously archaic, and so called 'gun nuts' who spew trash about having the right to bear arms (it would be interesting to study
about whether or not they know any of their other rights) are invoking anachronistic laws which have little to no place in our modern society.

So, why not change it?

[Amagius]

It's embarrassing to read such a superficial and ignorant discussion on race and crime. Really. Especially, since it was implanted here with little reason.

Most empirical studies, at least in the United States, that observe the effects of gun control show a inverse relationship between gun owners and crime--so, those who would want to amend our Constitution immediately, how would you handle a dramatic increase in crime? You didn't change the people, you changed the law. Would we enact a police state, with our bureaucracy and military expanding nearer to civilian sizes?

There will always be weapons--knives and guns, yeah, but even weapons in the future to still be imagined. In the face of an increasingly neurotic society, a government who will only marginally protect me, and an understanding of human nature, I'd rather guns be legal. I have no desire to harm or kill anyone, but if someone would do otherwise to me, I'll have a fighting chance.

[redlion]

Yeah this is closed. I want you all to read the above post for the literary content.

Good sir, I recognize the symmetry of words. Cadence is one thing, but poetry is entirely another matter. The lyrical quality of your writing is almost like hearing music.

Fin.