59 replies to this topic

[MaidenOfMercy]

Okay fine. They don't stick a "damn needle" in your arm. I think they have the right to quarantine you if you walk around becoming a health risk to the entire population.

I'm fine with that. At that point someone is hurting everyone else. But before someone is actually sick, it sets a bad precedent to just start sticking people. I don't see why it matters anyway since the people who are for the vaccinations would likely get one themselves anyway, rendering them safe from the effects of the disease whether or not the slow person next door decided not to get one and now is sick.

It isn't that I think vaccinations are bad. I'm not some anti-government nut but I don't trust the local government's competence to the point where I'd let them start medicating me by force.

iargue, people without the vaccine cause the virus to remain alive. The longer it remains in a population, the higher the chance of mutation. Look at smallpox. The disease was completely wiped out because governments mandated vaccinations. Polio is no longer in North America because the government mandated vaccinations. It is in the government's best interest to keep its populations healthy.

I suppose I get your point here, but again I don't have the same faith in the capability of the government to not mess it up somehow. Telling me I have to stay indoors is one thing, but injecting something into my body is a completely different one.

By not getting the vaccine while you had the opportunity to do so, you risk infecting those who were unable to get it for various reasons.

Point taken once more but IMO it's one of those freedom vs. security issues. It may be for the greater good but I'm afraid forced vaccinations crosses the line of what I'm willing to give up. It'd also be impossible for terrorists to attack our country if we had to get a cavity search any time we walked into a public place, but I'm not saying yes to that either. Not that it's the same thing but it's a similar "if we gave up freedom X then Y would not be dangerous" thing.

Edited by MaidenOfMercy, 29 September 2009 - 06:01 PM.

[xZel]

Yes they do... We have been using this vaccination for years...

The H1N1 anti virus is pretty new...

I suppose I get your point here, but again I don't have the same faith in the capability of the government to not mess it up somehow. Telling me I have to stay indoors is one thing, but injecting something into my body is a completely different one.

Damn those local governments that believe in water fluoridation! It's my choice to have rotten teeth.

[Wolfette]

I don't believe that the swine flu virus is serious enough to force people to get vaccinated against it. It has not mutated into something that is especially deadly, so there isn't a need for something that drastic at this point. I do think that they need to continue to research and develop the vaccine in the event that might happen, but it's probably unlikely - but flu viruses are well known for their mutating ability. Strains from birds, pigs and humans can and do combine and have the potential to form a much more deadly strain but they need the right conditions for it to happen and thankfully that hasn't happened.

Look at smallpox. The disease was completely wiped out because governments mandated vaccinations. Polio is no longer in North America because the government mandated vaccinations. It is in the government's best interest to keep its populations healthy.

The main problem with smallpox is the fact that the government stopped giving vaccinations - immunity to the disease does not last a lifetime and children born after the vaccinations ceased have absolutely no immunity whatsoever. There were reserves from the former Soviet Union that simply can not be accounted for. Those could very well be in the hands of bio-terrorists somewhere in the world. If it was to be weaponized and released, the devastation would be horrific with the population having no immunity.

I don't believe that any disease will ever be completely eradicated. We thought TB was a thing of the past in the USA, but it's making a comeback, and most of the strains are drug-resistant because the people who have it don't continue on with the full course of treatment which can last several months. They start to feel better and stop taking the meds and there is basically nothing that can be done about it.

I know forced vaccinations are controversial, but for some things it's just too much of a danger NOT to do it. Swine flu simply isn't one of them though.

[MaidenOfMercy]

It's not that big of a deal. I'm sure this is one of those "just in case" measures and it'll never be used. I honestly don't mind it when people are forced to be vaccinated. H1N1 is not a big deal, but if something worse than that comes up and threatens a country, I think they have every right to call for a state of emergency.

Also I forgot to mention but the reason they are doing it in Massachusetts is H1N1. And that is one of the problems with this. You said that you agree that H1N1 isn't a big deal and that it'd take something worse for them to call for a state of emergency. But this isn't something worse. Massachusetts is doing it because of H1N1, which most of us seem to agree is unjustified. We can say it's just in case this or that or they won't really do it but H1N1 is the cause.

Damn those local governments that believe in water fluoridation! It's my choice to have rotten teeth.

I am not required by law to drink tap water. It's not the same thing.

Edited by MaidenOfMercy, 29 September 2009 - 07:46 PM.

[xZel]

I am not required by law to drink tap water. It's not the same thing.

I would consider spiking peoples drinks fairly similar to injections.
Gl finding water otherwise.

[iargue]

I would consider spiking peoples drinks fairly similar to injections.
Gl finding water otherwise.

Fail.

Its known as Well Water, and you can get it almost anywhere that you want it. Your not forced to get City Water, and its not a needle in your arm, and has a almost 0% chance of being bad for you. Its instead a free health improvement, though it doesnt do that much.

The H1N1 anti virus is pretty new...

The Vaccination for the flu isnt though.

Swine flu reacts the same way to tests...

[ToxicS]

forced vaccinations could be bad. Look at "I am legend"

[iargue]

I am Legend was totally different. It was a cure for cancer, not a vaccination, and wasn't forced on anyone, just those who... you know, didn't want to die of cancer. Then things went awry.

Doesnt mean this cant do it either. I mean, maybe once it dies, it mutates and turns into cancer

[Mr. Hobo]

Doesnt mean this cant do it either. I mean, maybe once it dies, it mutates and turns into cancer

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[iargue]

lol

Um... you really should do a bit more research before making claims like that. Otherwise you're really just reinforcing your reputation as someone who spouts a whole lot of opinion and presents it as fact.

Yeah, just go ahead and call it impossible. Its about as possible that the vaccination (Which are partially dead virus cells) can mutate, and become something just as deadly, or can damage a cell and cause it to rapidly reproduce, as it is that the virus will mutate into something deadly.

[Tetiel]

Yeah, just go ahead and call it impossible. Its about as possible that the vaccination (Which are partially dead virus cells) can mutate, and become something just as deadly, or can damage a cell and cause it to rapidly reproduce, as it is that the virus will mutate into something deadly.

The fact that you're saying that viruses have cells means that you have no idea what you're talking about. Before making claims like that, I suggest you take some biology classes :\

[Wolfette]

The fact that you're saying that viruses have cells means that you have no idea what you're talking about. Before making claims like that, I suggest you take some biology classes :\

Yeah .. Viruses are basically strands of RNA, or DNA for the more complex ones. They're about as primitive a "life form" as you can get. They can't even reproduce on their own, they require a host cell in order to duplicate.

[iargue]

Yeah .. Viruses are basically strands of RNA, or DNA for the more complex ones. They're about as primitive a "life form" as you can get. They can't even reproduce on their own, they require a host cell in order to duplicate.

Okay? And that means they can still mutate when they are in your bloodstream infecting your sells? It takes one mistake in the RNa (caused by weakening them) to change it completely

[Tetiel]

Okay? And that means they can still mutate when they are in your bloodstream infecting your sells? It takes one mistake in the RNa (caused by weakening them) to change it completely

Says the person who takes their medical information from a movie? Do you even understand how vaccines work?

[iargue]

Says the person who takes their medical information from a movie? Do you even understand how vaccines work?

Yeah. Its a weakened form of the virus that is injected into your bloodstream and your immune system reacts to it and produces antibodies to fight it, and you easily defeat it, you body then has the antibodies in its system already, ready to fight the virus if you get it again.

When have I ever taken my medical information from a movie?

[Wolfette]

Okay? And that means they can still mutate when they are in your bloodstream infecting your sells? It takes one mistake in the RNa (caused by weakening them) to change it completely

First I have to address this - You just contradicted yourself from a previous post. You were so sure that you stated:

If this was true, then we at least one damn strain of flu would have mutated into something deadly. This is a virus that operates the same damn way the same damn time. It doesn't change. Ever.

So now you admit that it can mutate? And the flu virus itself has mutated into EXTREMELY deadly forms before.

But mutate from a vaccination? Naw. It might cause reactions in a small percentage of the population, but the vaccine itself will not have RNA or DNA mutating.

[Tetiel]

Yeah. Its a weakened form of the virus that is injected into your bloodstream and your immune system reacts to it and produces antibodies to fight it, and you easily defeat it, you body then has the antibodies in its system already, ready to fight the virus if you get it again.

When have I ever taken my medical information from a movie?

Your cancer example from I am Legend saying that's possible

Ummm no. It's not "weakened" it's completely denatured to the point where it really only has antigens left. You essentially destroy all of the parts of the virus that can make people sick. There are also other types of vaccines which make a new virus. This virus is a combination of different flu virii where all of the harmful genetic material is taken out. Essentially through a complicated process I can't be bothered to explain, they are given to animal cells (usually inside of a chicken egg) and out comes a brand new virus which has the genetic material of the previous virii, minus the harmful parts. There is really nothing to defeat. It doesn't put up a fight at all. It can't.

The reason why it's sometimes still effective even though the flu virus may have mutated to change its antigens in the protein coat is because it still has that tiny bit of DNA the body still may recognize. Sure, not as effective if there is a mutation, but it does help.

[iargue]

Your cancer example from I am Legend saying that's possible

Ummm no. It's not "weakened" it's completely denatured to the point where it really only has antigens left. You essentially destroy all of the parts of the virus that can make people sick. There are also other types of vaccines which make a new virus. This virus is a combination of different flu virii where all of the harmful genetic material is taken out. Essentially through a complicated process I can't be bothered to explain, they are given to animal cells (usually inside of a chicken egg) and out comes a brand new virus which has the genetic material of the previous virii, minus the harmful parts. There is really nothing to defeat. It doesn't put up a fight at all. It can't.

The reason why it's sometimes still effective even though the flu virus may have mutated to change its antigens in the protein coat is because it still has that tiny bit of DNA the body still may recognize. Sure, not as effective if there is a mutation, but it does help.

Right, and since it cant put up a fight, the destruction of it, might cause a mutation, or it might cause a mutation on its own. There is no way to tell with the vaccination, because we do not enough about DNA yet.

I didnt use the Cancer example, I was just playing along with someone else's

[Xcisor]

Wow. Is all I have to say. I think there is something fishy going on with these Vaccines and why this swine flu craze is such a big deal when it shouldn't be.

Edited by Xion, 30 September 2009 - 09:31 PM.

[Wolfette]

Wow. Is all I have to say. I think there is something fishy going on with these Vaccines and why this swine flu craze is such a big deal when it shouldn't be.

Probably because of how devastating the Spanish Flu of 1918 was. That was also a strain of the H1N1 virus.

http://en.wikipedia....18_flu_pandemic

Unless this strain mutates, it poses no threat even remotely like that did though. IMO, they are trying to prevent as many people as possible from contracting the swine flu since that would further the chance that it could mutate into a more deadly form.

At this time, however, I don't feel it would require forced vaccinations.

[Tetiel]

Right, and since it cant put up a fight, the destruction of it, might cause a mutation, or it might cause a mutation on its own. There is no way to tell with the vaccination, because we do not enough about DNA yet.

I didnt use the Cancer example, I was just playing along with someone else's

Uhhh... right. Where are you getting this idea from again? Have you even taken any advanced bio courses?

[plookle]

haha. Swine flu is soooo over publicized. I think it's important to vaccinate against some things, like smallpox and polio and things like that, but swine flu has probably killed all of a couple hundred people, while the regular flu kills about 10000 every year. If you want a swine flu vaccine, then that should be your decision, especially concerning such a new vaccine and suck a minimal threat. Schhol schildren and pregnant moms should probably get it tho...

[vendetta.inc]

haha. Swine flu is soooo over publicized. I think it's important to vaccinate against some things, like smallpox and polio and things like that, but swine flu has probably killed all of a couple hundred people, while the regular flu kills about 10000 every year. If you want a swine flu vaccine, then that should be your decision, especially concerning such a new vaccine and suck a minimal threat. Schhol schildren and pregnant moms should probably get it tho...

Here at my university, there were/are over 3000 confirmed cases, with at least three deaths so far. For an infection that doesn't have the mechanics to kill you on its own, it sure is effective.

Do I believe in forcing vaccinations? No. Do I believe that people should be vaccinated? Yes.

[plookle]

Here at my university, there were/are over 3000 confirmed cases, with at least three deaths so far. For an infection that doesn't have the mechanics to kill you on its own, it sure is effective.

Do I believe in forcing vaccinations? No. Do I believe that people should be vaccinated? Yes.

I'm all for vaccination. I just think that forced vaccination is pretty extreme, considering they don't even force parents to vaccinate their babies for diseases that are actually a threat. But that is a whole conversation I really don't want to have. And I'm not saying that the severity of swine flu is totally negligible, I'm just saying that I think it's ridiculous to even think of forced vaccinations when it is not the biggest medical concern we have right now by a long shot.

[crimsonsmile]

Do I agree with forced vaccinations? No. Do I think not getting vaccinated for certain things is retarded? Yes. I think H1N1 is over-hyped, but it does have the potential to mutate into a much deadlier virus.

"Other experts are also concerned that the new virus strain could mutate over the coming months. Guan Yi, a leading virologist from the University of Hong Kong, for instance, described the new H1N1 influenza virus as "very unstable", meaning it could mix and swap genetic material (reassortment) when exposed to other viruses. During an interview he said "Both H1N1 and H5N1 are unstable so the chances of them exchanging genetic material are higher, whereas a stable (seasonal flu) virus is less likely to take on genetic material." The H5N1 virus is mostly limited to birds, but in rare cases when it infects humans it has a mortality rate of between 60% to 70%. Experts worry about the emergence of a hybrid of the more virulent Asian-lineage HPAI (highly pathogenic avian influenza) A/H5N1 strain (media labeled "bird flu") with more human-transmissible Influenza A strains such as this novel 2009 swine-origin A/H1N1 strain (media labeled "swine flu"), especially since the H5N1 strain is and has been for years endemic in birds in countries like China, Indonesia, Vietnam and Eqypt."


H1N1 has a low mortality rate but is highly contagious, H5N1 has a high mortality rate but is not very contagious. They are both susceptible to mutation. If they exchange genetic material we could end up with a highly contagious and highly deadly virus. The risk is increased by more people walking around with either flu.

It's still wrong to force people to under-go medical procedures. After all, survival of the fittest won't work if stupid people don't do stupid things that will get them killed. So by all means, remove yourself from the gene pool if you're stupid, I'd appreciate it.