563 replies to this topic

[Chloee]

Few things piss me off more than the absurd notion that an opinion is a sacred thing that should be respected. Your opinion is factually moronic, and believing it makes you a moron.

I'm not saying my opinion is 'sacred'. I'm just saying it's my opinion just like everybody else who's posted theirs. Whether you agree or disagree is up to you. It doesn't mean that if you disagree with it, it means the other person is a moron. And I wouldn't post to others who think that you should abort 'you are wrong' or anything that would offend them.

Oh and I do think that views should be respected. Otherwise how are you going to learn what people think and why?

[Dayzee]

I do agree that abortion is a complex topic, but I do not think that the question framed in the poll is a difficult one.

Do you believe that anyone has the right to force any mother in any circumstance to keep any child? If not, then you agree that abortion should be allowed.

Legal or not, you can't force anyone to do anything

[Sweeney]

I can't think of any mammal that can survive "independEntly" even after birth. Because mammals need milk, among other things, they all need the care of their mother (or foster mother) even after they are fully formed, regardless of how many cells are involved. So what would you consider an independEnt organism?

I'm not talking about parental care, I'm talking about things like respiration, circulation, and cognition.

And yes, I spelled independent wrong. Sue me.

[Dayzee]

I'm not talking about parental care, I'm talking about things like respiration, circulation, and cognition.

And yes, I spelled independent wrong. Sue me.

You didn't answer at what point an organism is independent.

[Sweeney]

I'm not saying my opinion is 'sacred'. I'm just saying it's my opinion just like everybody else who's posted theirs. Whether you agree or disagree is up to you. It doesn't mean that if you disagree with it, it means the other person is a moron. And I wouldn't post to others who think that you should abort 'you are wrong' or anything that would offend them.

Oh and I do think that views should be respected. Otherwise how are you going to learn what people think and why?

You've posted your opinion, and then, when it's pointed out that your opinions are based on flawed perceptions, you simply state that it's your opinion and you're entitled to it.
You're right, you're entitled to hold opinions that are contrary to the objective nature of reality, but you're wrong that that doesn't make you a moron.
It does.

I learn what people think by asking them. I don't have to respect their answers automatically, especially if they're wrong.
Sometimes, even if they're wrong, but relatively well considered, I'll grant them some measure of deference. But that's a rare case.

If you respect everyone's opinion and don't require them to think about it (let's assume for a minute that we're operating under the terms of a debate, since this is the debate section), then how will anyone learn that their opinions are stupid?

Legal or not, you can't force anyone to do anything

Bullshit.
I don't believe prisons are voluntary institutions...

You didn't answer at what point an organism is independent.

Because I don't know. Welcome to the crux of the issue at hand.
I cannot point out the division between a river and the sea, but for the most part, I know which is which. Definitions break down at the borders of things, because neither our language, nor our science, is yet sophisticated enough to cope.

Regardless, a single-celled gamete is not an indpendent organism, and neither is a first-trimester foetus.

[Tarabyte]

Abortion shouldn't be permitted. Because of:
1) I think it's just like a homiside, you're killing a person, with the difference that this person isn't born yet. Anyway, it's the same, without caring about the period of pregnancy, STILL A LIFE.
2) If you don't want your baby because you just can't take care of it, you just put it for adoption, I think is the best choice.
You had the oportunity to live, give the oportunity to live to that baby please!!

I'm 22 years old and already have a daughter.
After my daughter was born, I had to go back on birth control immediately because another pregnancy is too dangerous for me.
My daughter & I almost died during labor.

I use more than one form of birth control, the pill & condoms, but there's still always a chance I could get pregnant. Every method fails.
Now, knowing that another pregnancy has a high chance of killing me, wouldn't continuing with a pregnancy be a form of suicide? Possibly homicide/suicide since if I died, so would the fetus most likely.

Which is worse, my getting an abortion to save myself or
continuing a dangerous pregnancy & risking not only mine, but the fetus's "life"?

Edited by TaraTantrum, 14 March 2011 - 02:55 PM.

[Sweeney]

I'm 22 years old and already have a daughter.
After my daughter was born, I had to go back on birth control immediately because another pregnancy is too dangerous for me.
My daughter & I almost died during labor.

I use more than one form of birth control, the pill & condoms, but there's still always a chance I could get pregnant. Every method fails.
Now, knowing that another pregnancy has a high chance of killing me, wouldn't continuing with a pregnancy be a form of suicide? Possibly homicide/suicide since if I died, so would the fetus most likely.

You're not allowed to have sex, because sex is only for making babies, and should only be carried out for the aim of making babies. Preferably in the missionary position, with no foreplay.

Obviously.

[Tarabyte]

You're not allowed to have sex, because sex is only for making babies, and should only be carried out for the aim of making babies. Preferably in the missionary position, with no foreplay.

Obviously.

I tried that. Not for me. It's why I'm divorced.

[Ladida]

I use more than one form of birth control, the pill & condoms, but there's still always a chance I could get pregnant. Every method fails.

Is tubal ligation a choice you'd consider? I'm guessing since this boils down to life and death, you wouldn't want to try for another child ten years down the line. I'm not sure if doctors would throw the "you're too young to make that decision" in your face since you're only 22, but it should be an option.

[Dayzee]

Bullshit.
I don't believe prisons are voluntary institutions...

Regardless, a single-celled gamete is not an indpendent organism, and neither is a first-trimester foetus.

Of course prisons aren't voluntary, but they're not enforcers, either. They are deterrents. Neither prisons nor laws keep people from purchasing or using drugs, buying or using weapons, or even coming to a complete stop at the stop sign. Even if abortion were made illegal they would not be obsolete. There are hundreds, maybe thousands of cases of self-performed abortions. You cannot MAKE a woman give birth to a child she is carrying.

I tried that. Not for me. It's why I'm divorced.

Haha, now THAT's funny!

[Sweeney]

Of course prisons aren't voluntary, but they're not enforcers, either. They are deterrents. Neither prisons nor laws keep people from purchasing or using drugs, buying or using weapons, or even coming to a complete stop at the stop sign. Even if abortion were made illegal they would not be obsolete. There are hundreds, maybe thousands of cases of self-performed abortions. You cannot MAKE a woman give birth to a child she is carrying.

That, of course, isn't what you said. And you still dodged the question either way.

Besides which, of course you can force a woman to have a baby. It may not be ethical, or practical, but it is certainly possible.

[Dayzee]

That, of course, isn't what you said. And you still dodged the question either way.

Which question? Sorry, don't remember you asking one.

Besides which, of course you can force a woman to have a baby. It may not be ethical, or practical, but it is certainly possible.

This is just plain ridiculous and lends nothing valuable to the debate at hand.

Edited by Dayzee, 14 March 2011 - 03:36 PM.

[Sweeney]

Which question? Sorry, don't remember you asking one.

Do you believe that anyone has the right to force any mother in any circumstance to keep any child? If not, then you agree that abortion should be allowed.

Your memory is worryingly short.

This is just plain ridiculous and lends nothing valuable to the debate at hand.

I agree, though as I remember it, you're the one that started the "you can't force anyone to do anything" line of argument, which was "just plain ridiculous" to begin with.

[Tarabyte]

Is tubal ligation a choice you'd consider? I'm guessing since this boils down to life and death, you wouldn't want to try for another child ten years down the line. I'm not sure if doctors would throw the "you're too young to make that decision" in your face since you're only 22, but it should be an option.

I did consider it. I was only eligible for it while I was married, though. Until you're 25, it's just not done unless you're married and have a child.
Plus, I simply can't afford it. I have no health insurance and am still paying for my hospital bills from my daughter's birth.

[Dayzee]

Do you believe that anyone has the right to force any mother in any circumstance to keep any child? If not, then you agree that abortion should be allowed.

^^You're referring to this? I thought I made my position clear that I think whether abortion should be "allowed" should be considered on a case by case basis. Therefore, I chose not to vote yes or no to the poll.

I agree, though as I remember it, you're the one that started the "you can't force anyone to do anything" line of argument, which was "just plain ridiculous" to begin with.

I made reference to a common idiom. The fact that you responded to it with any seriousness is quite humorous.

[Sweeney]

^^You're referring to this? I thought I made my position clear that I think whether abortion should be "allowed" should be considered on a case by case basis. Therefore, I chose not to vote yes or no to the poll.

Even though your answer to the question is clearly "Yes"? Curious.

Also, considered by whom? Should there be a central body to whom potential mothers should apply for abortions?
Should there be a form to fill out? Interviews?
Maybe it's the doctor's decision? How would you go about eliminating personal biases in that case?

I made reference to a common idiom. The fact that you responded to it with any seriousness is quite humorous.

I find the fact that you thought a common idiom constituted a substantive reply in the first place to be more humorous.
Or, alternatively, pathetic.

[Dayzee]

Even though your answer to the question is clearly "Yes"? Curious.

Stupid. My answer is no, except under certain circumstances. Similar to whether marijuana is legal. In the US it is not, but in certain states it is for medicinal purposes. Should marriage under the age of 18 be allowed? Well some states do not allow it, others do with parental consent etc. Would you like me to list more examples where the answer is not limited to a simple yes or no? I would hate to think any matter as complex as abortion would be viewed as "black or white". You are not the referee of this thread and you cannot force my answer into one of two boxes, try as you like.

I find the fact that you thought a common idiom constituted a substantive reply in the first place to be more humorous.
Or, alternatively, pathetic.

You're even more pathetic example proved the idiom to be true.

[Sweeney]

Stupid. My answer is no, except under certain circumstances. Similar to whether marijuana is legal. In the US it is not, but in certain states it is for medicinal purposes. Should marriage under the age of 18 be allowed? Well some states do not allow it, others do with parental consent etc. Would you like me to list more examples where the answer is not limited to a simple yes or no? I would hate to think any matter as complex as abortion would be viewed as "black or white". You are not the referee of this thread and you cannot force my answer into one of two boxes, try as you like.

You don't think abortion should be banned. Therefore, you think that it should be allowed.
Controlled, but allowed. That makes your answer yes, whether you're willing to commit to that or not.

You're even more pathetic example proved the idiom to be true.

"You're"? Oops. Hope you feel a bit silly for going on about "independant", now.
Even without the grammatical failure, this still makes no sense. Your use of idiom circumvented the question entirely, with a factually false statement.

I'm sorry, but I don't think this conversation is worth continuing, though if you reply, I'll probably carry on for the sake of it.

[ilovepolkadots]

really i don't think anyone is in a position to dictate the circumstances in which is or is not okay to have an abortion

i will vote yes for abortion rights every time
even if it was not legal that does not mean that women who do not want the baby for whatever reason will not turn to more extreme options
anything from quack doctors to poisoning themselves

[Chloee]

You've posted your opinion, and then, when it's pointed out that your opinions are based on flawed perceptions, you simply state that it's your opinion and you're entitled to it.
You're right, you're entitled to hold opinions that are contrary to the objective nature of reality, but you're wrong that that doesn't make you a moron.
It does.

I learn what people think by asking them. I don't have to respect their answers automatically, especially if they're wrong.
Sometimes, even if they're wrong, but relatively well considered, I'll grant them some measure of deference. But that's a rare case.

If you respect everyone's opinion and don't require them to think about it (let's assume for a minute that we're operating under the terms of a debate, since this is the debate section), then how will anyone learn that their opinions are stupid?

Well the definition of an opinion is: a personal belief or judgment that is not founded on proof or certainty.
So mine may not be based on proof, but it's still my opinion. And on abortion it's simply that I don't think its right to do it.

And I can see what you mean (by the way I posted the last one at about 11 at night and was tired so probably sounded moody xD) but opinions are what you think. So I might think your opinions are stupid, while somebody else might think that they are really good and reasonable. It just depends on who reads it and what they think of it. You can't really have a stupid opinion, because that's just your opinion of my opinion, and I could think that yours is stupid.

Pretty much, my opinion is that abortion shouldn't be allowed since it is killing a life.

Edited by Victini, 15 March 2011 - 09:10 AM.

[mlv]

Considering what you've said my answer would be "it depends". I can undertstand your case TaraTantrum, and now that you mention it, you are right. If you NEED to abort the baby would be fine, there isn't another better possibility, but if you will abort just because you want to abort without caring about any other option I don't think it must be permitted.

[weaboo]

I'm against it, Dont ask why haha, But i am.
It's like your killing a human?

I agree with Victini

[Ladida]

I'm against it, Dont ask why haha, But i am.
It's like your killing a human?

I agree with Victini

Does that mean you've never killed anything?

Edited by Ladida, 15 March 2011 - 01:08 PM.

[weaboo]

Nothing like a human tho?

[Chloee]

Does that mean you've never killed anything?

Haha I can see where you're coming from there. But if you think about it, then you and your partner have made that baby. So would you really want to kill a living creature you created and that has come from you?