563 replies to this topic

[Sweeney]

Well the definition of an opinion is: a personal belief or judgment that is not founded on proof or certainty.
So mine may not be based on proof, but it's still my opinion. And on abortion it's simply that I don't think its right to do it.

And I can see what you mean (by the way I posted the last one at about 11 at night and was tired so probably sounded moody xD) but opinions are what you think. So I might think your opinions are stupid, while somebody else might think that they are really good and reasonable. It just depends on who reads it and what they think of it. You can't really have a stupid opinion, because that's just your opinion of my opinion, and I could think that yours is stupid.

Pretty much, my opinion is that abortion shouldn't be allowed since it is killing a life.

Opinions are based (or should be) on evidence. If there is evidence that is contrary to your opinion, holding that opinion is stupid.
Opinions can be wrong.

Not all opinions are equal.

Haha I can see where you're coming from there. But if you think about it, then you and your partner have made that baby. So would you really want to kill a living creature you created and that has come from you?

Wheee! Appeal to emotion!

[Chloee]

Opinions are based (or should be) on evidence. If there is evidence that is contrary to your opinion, holding that opinion is stupid.
Opinions can be wrong.

Not all opinions are equal.


Wheee! Appeal to emotion!

Right. So if I didn't like sausages but you did would one of ours be wrong? Or if your opinion on how long a prison sentence should be isn't the same as what the law says it is, is your opinion wrong? No they aren't. Your opinions are just your thoughts on a topic. Not right or wrong, just because you think differently to the evidence. After all we all have brains and freedom of thought, so we can think and have our own opinions without people saying your thinking wrong.

And yay! Emotion!

Edited by Victini, 15 March 2011 - 02:42 PM.

[Sweeney]

Right. So if I didn't like sausages but you did would one of ours be wrong? Or if your opinion on how long a prison sentence should be isn't the same as what the law says it is, is your opinion wrong? No they aren't. Your opinions are just your thoughts on a topic. Not right or wrong, just because you think differently to the evidence. After all we all have brains and freedom of thought, so we can think and have our own opinions without people saying your thinking wrong.

Right, but if I said I didn't like sausages because they were too green, or if I said that prison sentences should be longer so that inmates were hairier when they left prison, you'd rightly think I was a gigantic fucktard.

Opinions should be backed up by evidence, and facts. Your opinion on this topic is flatly contradicted by reality.

That is what makes you a moron.

And yay! Emotion!

And this.

[Dayzee]

Really, Sweeney, how thick can you get?

You don't think abortion should be banned. Therefore, you think that it should be allowed.
Controlled, but allowed. That makes your answer yes, whether you're willing to commit to that or not.

I NEVER said I didn't think abortion should be banned. I indicated that I thought there were potential problems with banning it, such as self-abortions, etc. My original post to this thread was as follows:

"I think abortion is a complex topic, and did not vote as there are always gray areas to be considered. Personally, I am against abortion. And I was even the grand prize winner of an unwanted pregnancy. My reasons are primarily ethical in nature, and I apply them primarily to me, personally. I detest abortion as a primary means of birth control. There are many safe, inexpensive, pro-active forms of birth control available to most people who live in economically established societies. I am not an advocate of abortion due to lack of planning or laziness, regardless of "the heat of the moment" of any other such nonsense. Abortion in this case is the result of gross irresponsibility and immaturity. Accidents can and do happen, and though I am personally against abortion, I view this circumstance much differently when it is apparent that the couple was being proactive AGAINST conception. Rape almost never results in conception, but in the rare case it does, I would frown upon anyone who would judge the woman who considered abortion as an option. Other circumstances such as an unhealthy fetus, health of the mother, etc, I see as unique and individual cases every time. I am totally against late-term and partial birth abortions."

I'm not sure where you get the idea that I support abortion in any case. Let me reiterate and clarify it for you - I AM AGAINST ABORTION. What I did say was that I do not judge others who choose to have them if it is not abused as a primary means of birth control. That does not mean I am for "controlled abortion", it means I can empathize with people under certain circumstances who make that choice even though I would not.

[Sweeney]

Really, Sweeney, how thick can you get?



I NEVER said I didn't think abortion should be banned. I indicated that I thought there were potential problems with banning it, such as self-abortions, etc. My original post to this thread was as follows:

"I think abortion is a complex topic, and did not vote as there are always gray areas to be considered. Personally, I am against abortion. And I was even the grand prize winner of an unwanted pregnancy. My reasons are primarily ethical in nature, and I apply them primarily to me, personally. I detest abortion as a primary means of birth control. There are many safe, inexpensive, pro-active forms of birth control available to most people who live in economically established societies. I am not an advocate of abortion due to lack of planning or laziness, regardless of "the heat of the moment" of any other such nonsense. Abortion in this case is the result of gross irresponsibility and immaturity. Accidents can and do happen, and though I am personally against abortion, I view this circumstance much differently when it is apparent that the couple was being proactive AGAINST conception. Rape almost never results in conception, but in the rare case it does, I would frown upon anyone who would judge the woman who considered abortion as an option. Other circumstances such as an unhealthy fetus, health of the mother, etc, I see as unique and individual cases every time. I am totally against late-term and partial birth abortions."

I'm not sure where you get the idea that I support abortion in any case. Let me reiterate and clarify it for you - I AM AGAINST ABORTION. What I did say was that I do not judge others who choose to have them if it is not abused as a primary means of birth control. That does not mean I am for "controlled abortion", it means I can empathize with people under certain circumstances who make that choice even though I would not.

You have literally just said that you wouldn't take the choice of abortions away from people. Therefore, your answer to the question "Should abortion be permitted?" is yes.

[Dayzee]

You have literally just said that you wouldn't take the choice of abortions away from people. Therefore, your answer to the question "Should abortion be permitted?" is yes.

No, that is not LITERALLY what I said. I have voted NO on every abortion related issue in the US thus far.

[Sweeney]

No, that is not LITERALLY what I said. I have voted NO on every abortion related issue in the US thus far.

I don't think that you really know what your opinion actually is, nor why you hold it. Everyone can see the contradictions in your posts for themselves.

I'm not going to engage with you any further.

[Dayzee]

I don't think that you really know what your opinion actually is, nor why you hold it. Everyone can see the contradictions in your posts for themselves.

I'm not going to engage with you any further.

Good, glad to see you finally shut up. I know very well where I stand. I would take away the abortion option because ethically, I think it's wrong. However, if a friend decided to have one anyway I would not condemn her for doing so. It would not change our friendship in the slightest. I am a republican but I have friends who are democrats - doesn't mean I don't know what my political views actually are. I am a Christian but I have friends who are Buddhists, atheists, LDS, gay, promiscuous, you name it - doesn't mean I am confused about where I stand spiritually.

Narrow minded people have such a hard time seeing anything if it isn't directly in front of them.

[Tarabyte]

Good, glad to see you finally shut up. I know very well where I stand. I would take away the abortion option because ethically, I think it's wrong. However, if a friend decided to have one anyway I would not condemn her for doing so. It would not change our friendship in the slightest. I am a republican but I have friends who are democrats - doesn't mean I don't know what my political views actually are. I am a Christian but I have friends who are Buddhists, atheists, LDS, gay, promiscuous, you name it - doesn't mean I am confused about where I stand spiritually.

Narrow minded people have such a hard time seeing anything if it isn't directly in front of them.

Just for clarification for me, can you pick one of these two?

A.) If abortion weren't permitted, even in your excepted case-by-case circumstances ("Other circumstances such as an unhealthy fetus, health of the mother, etc, I see as unique and individual cases every time"), abortion wouldn't be permitted. If you believe that is should be permitted in only the circumstances you mentioned, then you believe it should be permitted.



B.) If you believe that abortion shouldn't be permitted in any circumstances, including the exceptions that you yourself mentioned, then you believe it should not be permitted.

[Dayzee]

Just for clarification for me, can you pick one of these two?

A.) If abortion weren't permitted, even in your excepted case-by-case circumstances ("Other circumstances such as an unhealthy fetus, health of the mother, etc, I see as unique and individual cases every time"), abortion wouldn't be permitted. If you believe that is should be permitted in only the circumstances you mentioned, then you believe it should be permitted.


B.) If you believe that abortion shouldn't be permitted in any circumstances, including the exceptions that you yourself mentioned, then you believe it should not be permitted.

I would choose B. The circumstances which you referenced in B applied to me, actually, and I choose not to have an abortion because of how I feel about it from an ethical standpoint. I would always choose B regardless of the situation. Because I stand by what I believe, I would always vote for no abortion. I believe it is life from the moment of conception. I don not judge those who would choose to vote for controlled abortion, as I understand their reasoning behind it, though I don't necessarily agree. I find it hard to be understanding of those who would support uninhibited abortion as a mean of birth control.

[Ladida]

I wholeheartedly agree with Sweeney's arguments. Narrow minded people don't make decisions based on factual evidence staring them in the face. Simply saying that abortion is ethically wrong and shouldn't be permitted is a baseless statement. I can also say that not permitting abortion is ethically wrong because it infringes on a woman's human rights.You say it's wrong because it's taking a life. I don't believe we're specifically speaking about late term abortions in this thread, in which case you mean abortion even in the early stages. I would like to ask (if you have children, or about children in general), how old is/are he/she/they? Do you consider their age to be from the time of conception? Or simply from the day they were born? And if it's the latter, are you saying that the child was NOT alive during the 9 months it was in the womb?

I would choose B. The circumstances which you referenced in B applied to me, actually, and I choose not to have an abortion because of how I feel about it from an ethical standpoint. I would always choose B regardless of the situation. Because I stand by what I believe, I would always vote for no abortion. I believe it is life from the moment of conception. I don not judge those who would choose to vote for controlled abortion, as I understand their reasoning behind it, though I don't necessarily agree. I find it hard to be understanding of those who would support uninhibited abortion as a mean of birth control.

You answered my question before I even hit post.

However, persons with your line of thinking seriously scare me. An 11 year old was gang raped recently by a number of men. Chances are if she has hit puberty (and if she hasn't been given Plan B), she may become pregnant. Or if someone accidentally becomes pregnant and it poses are high medical risk to her, she could die.

But you are actively voting "no" for any abortion issue because of your own personal beliefs. Without taking into account the situation which caused the need for abortion to arise. That is what I find to be narrow minded.

[Tarabyte]

I would choose B. The circumstances which you referenced in B applied to me, actually, and I choose not to have an abortion because of how I feel about it from an ethical standpoint. I would always choose B regardless of the situation. Because I stand by what I believe, I would always vote for no abortion. I believe it is life from the moment of conception. I don not judge those who would choose to vote for controlled abortion, as I understand their reasoning behind it, though I don't necessarily agree. I find it hard to be understanding of those who would support uninhibited abortion as a mean of birth control.

I in no way condone abortion as a form of birth control. I do agree with you there.


However, I'd like to ask you the same question I asked the mlv:

I'm 22 years old and already have a daughter.
After my daughter was born, I had to go back on birth control immediately because another pregnancy is too dangerous for me.
My daughter & I almost died during labor.

I use more than one form of birth control, the pill & condoms, but there's still always a chance I could get pregnant. Every method fails.
Now, knowing that another pregnancy has a high chance of killing me, wouldn't continuing with a pregnancy be a form of suicide? Possibly homicide/suicide since if I died, so would the fetus most likely.

Which is worse, my getting an abortion to save myself or
continuing a dangerous pregnancy & risking not only mine, but the fetus's "life"?

[Dayzee]

TaraTantrum, on 14 March 2011 - 05:53 PM, said:

I'm 22 years old and already have a daughter.
After my daughter was born, I had to go back on birth control immediately because another pregnancy is too dangerous for me.
My daughter & I almost died during labor.

I use more than one form of birth control, the pill & condoms, but there's still always a chance I could get pregnant. Every method fails.
Now, knowing that another pregnancy has a high chance of killing me, wouldn't continuing with a pregnancy be a form of suicide? Possibly homicide/suicide since if I died, so would the fetus most likely.

Which is worse, my getting an abortion to save myself or
continuing a dangerous pregnancy & risking not only mine, but the fetus's "life"?

This is an extreme example> I would wager that if you really are using two forms of BC that it is extremely unlikely that both would fail. I would suggest that you be proactive and purchase the Plan B pill, in the event the unlikely occurs. Again, I am against abortion but wouldn't think harshly if you opted to have one under these circumstances, though it seems unlikely that pregnancy couldn't be prevented in the first place.

[luvsmyncis]

I would take away the abortion option because ethically, I think it's wrong. However, if a friend decided to have one anyway I would not condemn her for doing so. It would not change our friendship in the slightest.

What? Your friend wouldn't be able to have an abortion if it were no longer an option. I understand what you're saying, that you don't judge people who do have abortions. That's fine, but at the same time, you want to take away their right to make a decision that greatly impacts their future. If you had it your way, abortion would not be an option, and you wouldn't have to remain friends with someone who is a baby-killer. Instead, you'd be friends with someone who was forced to have a child whether she wanted it or not, and then you'd have to hear her bitch about what a shitty little brat he is.
Then your friendship would totally change.

This is an extreme example> I would wager that if you really are using two forms of BC that it is extremely unlikely that both would fail. I would suggest that you be proactive and purchase the Plan B pill, in the event the unlikely occurs. Again, I am against abortion but wouldn't think harshly if you opted to have one under these circumstances, though it seems unlikely that pregnancy couldn't be prevented in the first place.

The use of Plan B when you are using birth control pills and condoms is a ridiculous notion. The product is essentially for women who had unprotected sex, or when a condom breaks, although sadly it is advertised as "when your birth control fails". You must take Plan B within 72 hours of intercourse for it to be effective. There is no way a woman can know if her birth control pills have failed in three days, and taking Plan B (retail price = $49.99) as a precaution after every single sexual encounter would disrupt her cycle, probably fuck her shit up, and cost more than an actual abortion after a while.

The birth control should be enough, but there is ALWAYS a chance of pregnancy. My brother was an accident that happened whilst my mother was on the pill and using condoms. But just because she wanted to keep the ugly little bastard, doesn't mean every woman can make that same choice.

[Dolly]

Personally I never ever could do that, but I'm not going to look down upon someone who has.
To each her own I suppse, everyone has their own reason, and everyone has to live with whatever they choose.

[Dayzee]

The use of Plan B when you are using birth control pills and condoms is a ridiculous notion. The product is essentially for women who had unprotected sex, or when a condom breaks, although sadly it is advertised as "when your birth control fails". You must take Plan B within 72 hours of intercourse for it to be effective. There is no way a woman can know if her birth control pills have failed in three days, and taking Plan B (retail price = $49.99) as a precaution after every single sexual encounter would disrupt her cycle, probably fuck her shit up, and cost more than an actual abortion after a while.

The birth control should be enough, but there is ALWAYS a chance of pregnancy. My brother was an accident that happened whilst my mother was on the pill and using condoms. But just because she wanted to keep the ugly little bastard, doesn't mean every woman can make that same choice.

Not suggesting Plan B after every sexual encounter. If she is on BC AND condoms, Plan B is a viable option for when condom fails, or if she knows she missed a day of the pill or whatever. Pills are still more than 99% effective when taken as directed. Personally, if I knew my life was on the line, I would probably abstain if I forgot a pill, but that's just me. And $49 is cheap compared to the cost, and risks, of an abortion. Again, I'm not going to vote for something that I can't do so in good conscience. But I'm not going to judge anyone who thinks otherwise. Wow, it certainly feels like everyone is quick to judge me, though!

[luvsmyncis]

You've just been the most vocal on the anti-abortion viewpoint.

I think it's great you don't condemn people who have made the choice to have abortions, but on the other hand, you think it's wrong and you always vote to have that choice revoked. This is what gets me confused. It's like- I don't think gays are evil, but I think homosexuality is wrong and always vote against their right to marry. What's the use that you are not a bigot full of hatred for people who do things that go against your personal morals, if your personal morals always guide you ever towards depriving those people of certain rights? You might as well just hate them and take away their rights, because the outcome would be the same.

[Seaner]

Might as well pick a side and stick with it, sitting with one leg on either side of the fence will only make your balls/vag hurt.

[Tarabyte]

This is an extreme example> I would wager that if you really are using two forms of BC that it is extremely unlikely that both would fail. I would suggest that you be proactive and purchase the Plan B pill, in the event the unlikely occurs. Again, I am against abortion but wouldn't think harshly if you opted to have one under these circumstances, though it seems unlikely that pregnancy couldn't be prevented in the first place.

I really don't think it's as extreme an example as you think it is. If a condom broke, and I was certain of the BC failure, I would be happy to purchase Plan B (which costs $80 around here, not $49.99 - not that it matters in this situation. Just an observation.). However, there's not always a way to know. "Even if no breakage or slippage is observed, 1–2% of women will test positive for semen residue after intercourse with a condom." The pill has a failure rate of 8%, and the emergency contraceptive Plan B has a failure rate of 11-25% even when taken within 3 days of unprotected sex. If I hadn't had a terrible reaction to it, I'd continue getting the contraceptive implant, which has the lowest failure rate, I believe.


I am nothing if not incredibly careful, but there's always a chance. I even take a pregnancy test every month at my doctor's suggestion because a period doesn't always mean you're not pregnant.


I'm not going to continue this though, because the fact of the matter is all of the people who voted that abortion shouldn't be permitted are saying they don't care about my life without the excuse that they care about the "babies". There is very little chance the fetus would survive on it's own, because the risk to me is far earlier in the pregnancy than the fetus would be able to live on its own. And, honestly, that just hurts.

[Ladida]

I'm not going to continue this though, because the fact of the matter is all of the people who voted that abortion shouldn't be permitted are saying they don't care about my life without the excuse that they care about the "babies". There is very little chance the fetus would survive on it's own, because the risk to me is far earlier in the pregnancy than the fetus would be able to live on its own. And, honestly, that just hurts.

Didn't you know? The people who voted against give more rights to a potential human than to the one who's actually already alive and kicking in the real world. It apparently makes logical sense to them. Hypocritical, in my opinion.

Sorry Tara, if you ever get preggers again, some people would think it's best that you die along with that bundle of cells. Because that obviously makes more sense

[Ali]

Didn't you know? The people who voted against give more rights to a potential human than to the one who's actually already alive and kicking in the real world. It apparently makes logical sense to them. Hypocritical, in my opinion.

This is the thing that really confuses me about pro-life people. I couldn't in good faith vote for something I know would risk the lives of hundreds of women each year, even just people with legitimate health issues, let alone considering those who would resort to more desperate measures if abortion was illegal.

I imagine the Abortion Act would be fairly difficult to repeal here now (although I can't see it ever would be attempted as we don't have anywhere near the pro-life stance that America does). Tara would presumably be protected under the Human Rights Act as medical authorities would have a positive obligation to protect her right to life? The European courts in Strasbourg have already ruled that a foetus doesn't have a right to life under the ECHR.

So glad to live in a country where this isn't an issue!

[Chloee]

Right, but if I said I didn't like sausages because they were too green, or if I said that prison sentences should be longer so that inmates were hairier when they left prison, you'd rightly think I was a gigantic fucktard.

Opinions should be backed up by evidence, and facts. Your opinion on this topic is flatly contradicted by reality.

That is what makes you a moron.


And this.

Yes I might. But then another person might agree with it. Very very unlikely, but still possible, since an opinion is just your thoughts. So like I've said, my thought on the matter is that it should not be allowed because to me it is wrong. I'm not saying that you should think it's wrong too, or that your opinion is wrong (if you think it should be allowed) or you're a moron for thinking it. And because I think it's wrong and that because of this I'm a moron or something, does that mean that everybody else who doesn't think it should be allowed is a moron too? I don't think so, since it is just their thoughts and opinion on it.

Just for clarification for me, can you pick one of these two?

A.) If abortion weren't permitted, even in your excepted case-by-case circumstances ("Other circumstances such as an unhealthy fetus, health of the mother, etc, I see as unique and individual cases every time"), abortion wouldn't be permitted. If you believe that is should be permitted in only the circumstances you mentioned, then you believe it should be permitted.


B.) If you believe that abortion shouldn't be permitted in any circumstances, including the exceptions that you yourself mentioned, then you believe it should not be permitted.

Oh and I know this wasn't directed to me, but I would pick B. But I know that the world wouldn't let it become illegal/not able to have one, so if somebody did have one I wouldn't treat them any differently to someone who has had one.
Plus, I hope this just simplifies my opinions for you Sweeney. I just wouldn't permit it.

[Sweeney]

Yes I might. But then another person might agree with it. Very very unlikely, but still possible, since an opinion is just your thoughts. So like I've said, my thought on the matter is that it should not be allowed because to me it is wrong. I'm not saying that you should think it's wrong too, or that your opinion is wrong (if you think it should be allowed) or you're a moron for thinking it. And because I think it's wrong and that because of this I'm a moron or something, does that mean that everybody else who doesn't think it should be allowed is a moron too? I don't think so, since it is just their thoughts and opinion on it.

I don't give a monkeys what you're saying about my opinion, because you've demonstrated that your opinions are shallow, and based on irredeemably flawed "reasoning".

Your thoughts are wrong. Fix it, or fuck off.

Oh and I know this wasn't directed to me, but I would pick B. But I know that the world wouldn't let it become illegal/not able to have one, so if somebody did have one I wouldn't treat them any differently to someone who has had one.
Plus, I hope this just simplifies my opinions for you Sweeney. I just wouldn't permit it.

Your opinions are hardly complex. I understand them.
They're still wrong.

[Seaner]

So like I've said, my thought on the matter is that it should not be allowed because to me it is wrong.

Okay, you believe that abortion shouldn't be allowed.

But I know that the world wouldn't let it become illegal/not able to have one, so if somebody did have one I wouldn't treat them any differently to someone who has had one.

But you don't feel strongly enough against abortion to condemn a woman for undergoing the procedure.


If you're just sort of against something, why be against it at all?

[Sweeney]

If you're just sort of against something, why be against it at all?

Because they haven't actually thought about the implications of what their unfounded opinions actually mean.