563 replies to this topic

[Juturna]

My simple take on it the issue: I find it more to be a freedom issue, rather than is it murder and etc. If it were illegal, it would be the beliefs of the people who think it's wrong. Now what about the people who think it's alright? Don't they have a right? Yes.

"But wait! That's against the rights of the people who think it's murder!"

The answer to that is to simply not get one, don't preach it, etc. It's not as if anybody's forcing you to have anything to do with it. Just don't shove your beliefs into my laws. kthx.





I pretty much have no opinion on whether it's right or wrong. Or about if it's living or not, and all that good stuff. Just that.

-out

Edited by Roa, 12 April 2011 - 04:46 PM.

[Kat]

What's your definition of life then?
As quoted from dictionary.com:

Does a fetus contain cells? What do living cells do? They congregate, manifest, expand to form life. Is a fetus forced to adapt to it's surroundings [the womb]? To a certain extent, yes, but you can also argue that the fetus isn't actively adapting to the surroundings inside the womb. What if someone who hardly knew you, or knew you very well, came up and said to you "You're a giant waste of space, you really should have been aborted." or how about "You're a waste of sperm and egg." Would you be insulted? I know I would be. The only way I see abortion as a viable 'way out' is if the fetus is in any way harmful to the mother or there is some substantial % that the fetus will die anyway upon birth or shortly after. I believe a woman's body is just that, a woman's body. What I don't believe in, is that life should be taken into man {woman's] hand. Life and death are natural things.

I was referring to what current law states, that the fetus is not classified as alive until is has taken it's first breath. (Roe v. Wade m'dear)
By the definition, all organisms living on earth and living cells in your body are subject to your beliefs. Do you have a problem with killing animals and your own cells as well? Are they not living things worthy of life?

And no, I would not be offended if someone said those things to me. I would laugh in their face. Why would you be insulted by that?

..and where do you draw the line? So you're saying, "abortion only under certain circumstances." Then say that, and not "omg keep ur legs closed." What a childish and insensitive thing to say. You think you know about every single situation that a woman would go through. "Do you know what /most/ (unless you're hiedi flice) women feel guilt and sorrow when they abort a child? The guilt and sorrow come from the conscious mind telling them that they did something wrong." Proof plz? Unless you have reliable polls and studies to show for it or you've talked to every single woman that's ever had an abortion, I suggest you think before you post such a sweeping comment.

Edit: Typo.

Edited by Katrinas, 12 April 2011 - 05:10 PM.

[Adam]

I was referring to what current law states, that the fetus is not classified as alive until is has taken it's first breath. (Roe v. Wade m'dear)
By the definition, all organisms living on earth and living cells in your body are subject to your beliefs. Do you have a problem with killing animals and your own cells as well? Are they not living things worthy of life?

And no, I would not be offended if someone said those things to me. I would laugh in their face. Why would you be insulted by that?

..and where do you draw the line? So you're saying, "abortion only under certain circumstances." Then say that, and not "omg keep ur legs closed." What a childish and insensitive thing to say. You think you know about every single situation that a woman would go through. "Do you know what /most/ (unless you're hiedi flice) women feel guilt and sorrow when they abort a child? The guilt and sorrow come from the conscious mind telling them that they did something wrong." Proof plz? Unless you have reliable polls and studies to show for it or you've talked to every single woman that's ever had an abortion, I suggest you think before you post such a sweeping comment.

Edit: Typo.

A few family members have had /an/ abortions. All of which I can forgive but I'll never forget that they've killed a child. I'm old enough to have had mature conversations with them and how they feel. Maybe I come from a family who isn't quite as cruel as everyone else's but these particular women were saddened at what they had to do. Also, I do not have any concrete sources for my claim besides my family experiences and what a simple google search of 'do women feel guilty after an abortion'. I personally do not kill animals, I don't find running around with a gun or a bow and shooting it at creatures is fun, but I understand that for me to eat (being a meat eater) certain sacrifices must be made. So according to you, if I stuck an underpowered gun in some pregnant chicks vag and shot, it killed the fetus 3 hours before birth that wouldn't be murder? New York state law says any fetus before 24 weeks is legal to abort. (still immoral imo but I'm just throwing out a fact.) I'm entitled to my opinion, hence this debate sub forum. Are you going to reach through the ewebbz and slap some imaginary killing children sense into me? Please, enlighten me.

[Ladida]

I will never trust a man who feels entitled to tell a woman what to do with her own body. Once men start pushing out babies, they have a right to join the debate. The majority of boys who get girls pregnant abandon the girl, even though it took two to tango. They tend to get away from all responsibility, just watch MTV or speak to one of the many many girls whose sexual partner hightailed it out of there when she told him she's pregnant. Men shouldn't get to have a say unless they've done more than just fertilize an egg, and men who are not even involved should definitely not be poking their noses into other people's affairs.

I don't feel guilty about killing mosquitoes and cockroaches, or smashing centipedes and snakes.. But if someone kept harping about it telling me how wrong it is, I'd probably feel terribly guilty about it. Ultimately, it's not your choice, you are not the one who'll be providing for the baby, your only offering is that "abortion is wrong!" and therefore, your opinion carries no weight to the person making the decision. People can scream all day long about it, but in the end, they're not going to be there helping you. Or you can be happy that you've pleased some social circle, and irresponsibly bring another life into this world.

This is not related to abortion, but I've been seeing these ads from law firms, informing women that if they were on some Prozac or Zoloft and had deformed babies, they should totally sue the medicine companies. This just pisses the absolute Hell out of me. Women who are clearly not mentally capable of having children go ahead and have them anyway. I have no idea what the logic behind that is. The medication kept them from probably killing themselves, so what do they do? Make babies! And then bitch about having deformed kids. Seriously. It's pretty obvious that if a medication is messing with your hormones, you shouldn't be having babies. In birth control ads, I've heard them warning the audience NOT to take the birth control if they're pregnant or planning to become pregnant, so apparently the general public is made up of morons.

[Adam]

I will never trust a man who feels entitled to tell a woman what to do with her own body. Once men start pushing out babies, they have a right to join the debate. The majority of boys who get girls pregnant abandon the girl, even though it took two to tango. They tend to get away from all responsibility, just watch MTV or speak to one of the many many girls whose sexual partner hightailed it out of there when she told him she's pregnant. Men shouldn't get to have a say unless they've done more than just fertilize an egg, and men who are not even involved should definitely not be poking their noses into other people's affairs.

I don't feel guilty about killing mosquitoes and cockroaches, or smashing centipedes and snakes.. But if someone kept harping about it telling me how wrong it is, I'd probably feel terribly guilty about it. Ultimately, it's not your choice, you are not the one who'll be providing for the baby, your only offering is that "abortion is wrong!" and therefore, your opinion carries no weight to the person making the decision. People can scream all day long about it, but in the end, they're not going to be there helping you. Or you can be happy that you've pleased some social circle, and irresponsibly bring another life into this world.

This is not related to abortion, but I've been seeing these ads from law firms, informing women that if they were on some Prozac or Zoloft and had deformed babies, they should totally sue the medicine companies. This just pisses the absolute Hell out of me. Women who are clearly not mentally capable of having children go ahead and have them anyway. I have no idea what the logic behind that is. The medication kept them from probably killing themselves, so what do they do? Make babies! And then bitch about having deformed kids. Seriously. It's pretty obvious that if a medication is messing with your hormones, you shouldn't be having babies. In birth control ads, I've heard them warning the audience NOT to take the birth control if they're pregnant or planning to become pregnant, so apparently the general public is made up of morons.

Well good thing you and I will never meet. As you say it's ultimately the woman's decision, and if she is in a relationship I'd hope she would talk to her partner about carrying out the act. You seem to think that most men would go up to a woman who's about to enter a murder *cough* abortion clinic and like...abuse her until she changes her mind. If I could change the world in any way, it would be that all children would grow up with both parents and live a happy life. Unfortunately none of us have that power. I'm an an active member of an African American rights group (although I'm white). With your mindset I shouldn't be fighting for equality in my city just because I'm not black. Again, all I can do is try and get people to change their mind. I respect everyones opinions and all I can do is raise my voice to what I believe in.

[Kat]

A few family members have had /an/ abortions. All of which I can forgive but I'll never forget that they've killed a child. I'm old enough to have had mature conversations with them and how they feel. Maybe I come from a family who isn't quite as cruel as everyone else's but these particular women were saddened at what they had to do. Also, I do not have any concrete sources for my claim besides my family experiences and what a simple google search of 'do women feel guilty after an abortion'. I personally do not kill animals, I don't find running around with a gun or a bow and shooting it at creatures is fun, but I understand that for me to eat (being a meat eater) certain sacrifices must be made. So according to you, if I stuck an underpowered gun in some pregnant chicks vag and shot, it killed the fetus 3 hours before birth that wouldn't be murder? New York state law says any fetus before 24 weeks is legal to abort. (still immoral imo but I'm just throwing out a fact.) I'm entitled to my opinion, hence this debate sub forum. Are you going to reach through the ewebbz and slap some imaginary killing children sense into me? Please, enlighten me.

That's wasn't the point of my post, referring to you I was trying to point out your ignorance in saying something like "Don't you know.." (the quote) that it's a fact, when it's not. If you're going to say it as fact, post some proof other than Google searches, that's kind of the point of a debate.. However, that's your /opinion/, so it should be said a such. I have no problem with you expressing your opinions and debating you on such thoughts, but the way that you "debate" is hardly so. Also, slandering my views just demeans yours. I have just as much right to my opinion as you, and saying things like "who isn't quite as cruel and everyone else's" and endless child killing references doesn't really help your argument. Maybe to "moral" people such as yourself but I for one have a different set of morals and opinions, it doesn't mean I'm a cruel and heartless baby killer.
And sticking a gun into a woman's "vag" and shooting the child would hurt her (and probably kill her) as well, so yeah, that would be murder of the mother. Also, assault. Don't know where you're going with that.

[Ladida]

I'm an an active member of an African American rights group (although I'm white). With your mindset I shouldn't be fighting for equality in my city just because I'm not black. Again, all I can do is try and get people to change their mind. I respect everyones opinions and all I can do is raise my voice to what I believe in.

I have no idea what you point you were trying to make here.. Kudos to you for joining others in fighting for equality, but, when you tell a person she's a murderer, that's not really respecting someone's opinion now is it? What would be respecting their opinion is stating that you disagree and why. Your arguments so far tend to be purely emotional and don't seem to rely on anything logical or factual. I agree with you on one thing though, I am very glad that we will never meet. On the other hand, I will meet men like you, and that idea just ruins my day.

[mjcm]

i submit in the affirmative. However, it should only be permitted for health related issues and not merely for the convenience of the mother or any other person affected.

[danielfromburn]

Sometimes things aren't as simple as just a yes or no, more of like, why and why not. In any case, a child should never have to suffer because of their irresponsible parents.

[travis]

Falcon punch.
That is all.

[Maloo]

Falcon punch.
That is all.

LOL

[frostz]

yes because so long as the fetus is in the woman's body it is technically a part of her body and hers to do as she sees fit.

[dratini]

My opinion has already been written up for me, apparently.

[frostz]

My opinion has already been written up for me, apparently.

precisely...an unborn person is essentially nothing but a parasitic growth....

[sylphique]

My general view on abortion has been echoed previously on this thread. I'm pro-choice, with the distinction of not being "anti-life" or pro-abortion, but that line of argument hasn't come up on this topic afaik. I'm also for late-term abortions. Adoption is a shoddy alternative to abortion because that assumes that those unwanted babies will eventually be adopted into a loving family and given an equal chance at life/success/whatnot. Plenty of families want to adopt.... healthy, white babies. It's all well and good if you want to make sure the fetuses who would've otherwise been adopted will have good, fulfilling lives, but I hardly ever see pro-lifers take that step. At that point, it becomes less pro-life and more just pro-birth, which doesn't have quite the same ring to it.

Maybe I come from a family who isn't quite as cruel as everyone else's but these particular women were saddened at what they had to do. Also, I do not have any concrete sources for my claim besides my family experiences and what a simple google search of 'do women feel guilty after an abortion'.

I did want to respond to this point with some studies concluding with a lack of causal relationship between abortion and depression/anxiety/etc. Not sure how many of you have access to scientific journals, but I'll list some titles below (not sure what the best format for this would be). Whatever your (limited) personal experiences may be with women experiencing guilt or mental illness after an abortion, they aren't applicable to most people. I'd also consider whether your family's views are creating those feelings of guilt.

Got these all off the PsycINFO database.

Examining the association of abortion history and current mental health: A reanalysis of the National Comorbidity Survey using a common-risk-factors model.
Author: Steinberg, Julia R ; Finer, Lawrence B.

Do depression and low self‐esteem follow abortion among adolescents? Evidence from a national study.
Author: Warren, Jocelyn T. ; Harvey, S. Marie ; Henderson, Jillian T.

Induced first-trimester abortion and risk of mental disorder.
Author: Munk-Olsen, Trine ; Laursen, Thomas Munk ; Pedersen, Carsten B. ; Lidegaard, Øjvind ; Mortensen, Preben Bo

Edited by sylphique, 16 May 2011 - 11:21 AM.

[frostz]

yea there are already tons of children in orphanages and we don't need anymore adding to that number when there is an alternative.

[vurty]

I can see both sides, i understand the fetus is 'alive' but it's not like they have a concept of what is going on at all. In my opinion, if it will be better off for the parents, as well as the child's future then do it.

[travis]

Falcon punch.
Nuff said.

[batryn]

Yes on abortion, because a resentful mother is a lot worse.

[nugget111]

abortion is a Sin


to me this is like murder !

[Musician]

I think that abortion should definitely be permitted.
It would be horrible to have a child that you don't even want, give birth to him/her, and then having to take care of him/her or send him/her away to an orphanage.

It would bring misery to both you and the child.

[Mai]

Here in the Netherlands you have to choice as a woman to choose for an abortion and I'm happy for it. Just because someones believes abortion is murder, I don't think they should force their idea upon someone else.

About man saying abortion is murder and should be illegal. It's very easy for a man to say that and than to add "a woman should not have sex" or "they should hive it up for adaptation". Man don't have to go through the pregnancy and don't have to give birth to a child.And about not having sex, it takes two to tango. Who would you have sex with if all woman refrained from having sex?

And to be honest, if you can't give the child a good life, aborting may be the better choice. Some woman give birth only to leave it on the doormat somewhere. It would be better if they had an abortion.

And last, I would like to point out that the weeks in which it's possible to abort, that the fetus is only a few cells. Let me put it this way, we kill animals on every day bases (cows, piggs) and they are way bigger than the fetus. So if you really fell that bad about abortion, please also become vegan.

[ElPinapple]

Here in the Netherlands you have to choice as a woman to choose for an abortion and I'm happy for it. Just because someones believes abortion is murder, I don't think they should force their idea upon someone else.

About man saying abortion is murder and should be illegal. It's very easy for a man to say that and than to add "a woman should not have sex" or "they should hive it up for adaptation". Man don't have to go through the pregnancy and don't have to give birth to a child.And about not having sex, it takes two to tango. Who would you have sex with if all woman refrained from having sex?

And to be honest, if you can't give the child a good life, aborting may be the better choice. Some woman give birth only to leave it on the doormat somewhere. It would be better if they had an abortion.

And last, I would like to point out that the weeks in which it's possible to abort, that the fetus is only a few cells. Let me put it this way, we kill animals on every day bases (cows, piggs) and they are way bigger than the fetus. So if you really fell that bad about abortion, please also become vegan.

As a vegan, I think abortion should be universally free, accessible, and anonymous.

and legal of course

[Altzer]

My simple take on it the issue: I find it more to be a freedom issue, rather than is it murder and etc. If it were illegal, it would be the beliefs of the people who think it's wrong. Now what about the people who think it's alright? Don't they have a right? Yes.

"But wait! That's against the rights of the people who think it's murder!"

The answer to that is to simply not get one, don't preach it, etc. It's not as if anybody's forcing you to have anything to do with it. Just don't shove your beliefs into my laws. kthx.





I pretty much have no opinion on whether it's right or wrong. Or about if it's living or not, and all that good stuff. Just that.

-out

You said exactly what I think, but better than I could've ever put it. Where I live even therapeutic abortion is illegal though. Have preeclampsia? Doesn't matter! Oh, and if the fetus has anencephalia, or acrania? Doesn't matter either. You bear with the 9 months and that's that, even if scientific label for the fetus is a "monstrosity". Ain't it lovely?

[Ladida]

if you really fell that bad about abortion, please also become vegan.

I just had to add, being vegan isn't enough.
Even plants are living things made up of cells just like animals. If you feel that bad about abortion, please don't eat anything at all Don't kill the weeds in your yard. And don't live in an area that eradicates pests And don't inhale or move because you're killing so many microscopic organisms every time. Actually, it'd be easier on you to just be dead, then you wouldn't be killing ANYTHING!