563 replies to this topic

[Habanero]

Ms. Fiery Pepper, many learned people read the bible and believe that life starts with breath, several references I could bore you with, but cursory reading of Genesis would lead to that point. That was my observation on how it worked.

Yes, I know.
But there are people who believe that life starts way earlier than that, which is the whole controversy of this issue.

[idontknow951]

Different definitions of when life starts. Some people think life starts when you're a fetus, others the point of conception ect.

Then wouldn't masturbation be considered murder as well then?

[Habanero]

Then wouldn't masturbation be considered murder as well then?

"But it's completely different!"
Would probably be their argument.

[Elindoril]

"But it's completely different!"
Would probably be their argument.

But there's no fetus yet, it's just a seed waiting to be planted and be given life.

[idontknow951]

But there's no fetus yet, it's just a seed waiting to be planted and be given life.

But that's the point. So is just a single cell in the uterus. They all have the potential for life.

[8143FF763271]

I voted yes. Now, technically, abortion is murder. I don't want y'all to freak out, but unborn babies are human and alive and you're killing them when you abort. When we legalize abortion we have to accept that, yes, we are systematically murdering people that have no access to political activism and that are weaker than us for our own personal benefit. Notions comparing abortion to genocide or slavery are correct. We simply do not value the lives of babies as much as we value our ability to get a career or desire to not take care of them. I personally think there's nothing wrong with that, but let's not pretend that abortion is 'right' by "democratic" standards or by scientific standards. It isn't. Just like killing animals for human consumption isn't fair: We simply do not give a shit.

With that said, I don't feel bad about it. I think that the people who tend to get abortions should get abortions since they'd, more likely than not, make awful parents. They're making the right decision for themselves, their babies, and societies. Not only is that baby is likely to end up a burden to society, but the parent itself is more likely to be so too. Plus, people should focus on their goddamn careers. Lord knows we need more lawyers than idle mothers out there.

Edited by kami12, 13 August 2012 - 06:21 PM.

[Frizzle]

Fetus' are as much alive as skin cells, so basically you are making a proxy assumption that every time you exfoliate you are committing mass murder. Which of course is ridiculous and is an absurd point.

Also, by most legal, moral, and scientific reasoning, no, abortion is not murder. You put too much emphasis on life and making a bias assumption that people are too narcassitic and materialistic to believe abortion isn't a sensitive and morbid subject. Many people live the rest of their lives with guilt and regret because of their actions and uneducated opinions like yours only exasperate it even further.

[8143FF763271]

Fetus' are as much alive as skin cells, so basically you are making a proxy assumption that every time you exfoliate you are committing mass murder. Which of course is ridiculous and is an absurd point.

Also, by most legal, moral, and scientific reasoning, no, abortion is not murder. You put too much emphasis on life and making a bias assumption that people are too narcassitic and materialistic to believe abortion isn't a sensitive and morbid subject. Many people live the rest of their lives with guilt and regret because of their actions and uneducated opinions like yours only exasperate it even further.

No, I am saying that we arbitrarily define life by things that don't necessarily or "scientifically" define it. By scientific means, an unborn baby is a metabolizing cell-structured creature that responds to stimuli and has the eventual capacity for reproduction. Nothing much differentiates it from living babies, other than the fact that it's in a womb. My argument isn't whether it is more alive than skin cells or not: Maybe it is, maybe it isn't, my argument is that someone "scientifically" proving that skin cells are alive wouldn't make me care about them. Nor make you. We don't define life scientifically and we never have. That the pro-abortion side spouses science is wrong (in the sense that under scientific terms it is murder) and irrelevant (in the sense that science is obviously not what dictates whether or not we care about a life).

By most moral reasoning, abortion is murder. By most scientific reasoning, abortion is murder. Moral reasoning is what's at hand here and the morals of abortion are pretty... amoral. Again, we are advocating the systemic murder of the less advantaged for our own benefit.

I am making the assumption that people care more about themselves than they care about unborn babies. Just like I make the assumption that people care more about a nice meal than they care about a chicken. No, the fact that people complain about animal cruelty does not give a chicken its life back. I am calling a spade a space. Nothing more, nothing less.

If they live their lives with guilt and regret, they shouldn't get an abortion. If they have the moral foundation to get one and go on with it guilt-free, they should. My argument is that people should do what benefits them the most, but not try to fit their self-motivated actions into a consistent "moral" and/or scientific framework. They should take it at face value: You're murdering that baby because you simply don't care.

Edited by kami12, 14 August 2012 - 12:47 AM.

[Carialle]

Pro Choice but only until the first 12 Weeks of Pregnancy. After that is just not right, I mean: Why wait that long? 12 Weeks are time enough to think about getting the Child or not. I can't understand woman making abortion travel to Spain or Netherland just because they are 25+ weeks pregnant, that is disgusting. Then they shuld give the child up for adoption. My Opinion.

[Romy]

They're making the right decision for themselves, their babies, and societies. Not only is that baby is likely to end up a burden to society, but the parent itself is more likely to be so too. Plus, people should focus on their goddamn careers. Lord knows we need more lawyers than idle mothers out there.

1) Hmm..you came off as kiiiind of a douche. I wonder why....
2) So..every kid with fucked up parents is going to end up as a burden to society?
Crap. I'm done for D:

I voted yes by default.
A woman should not be allowed to have more then a certain amount of abortions and all those abortions must be made during the first trimester.
3 months is MORE then enough to decide whether or not you want to keep a child.
Exceptions can and MUST be made if the mother's life is in danger.
As far as the father having a say; fuck no. It isn't your womb and it isn't your vagina that kid is going to be born from.

The only thing I have a problem with is abortions that occur in the 3rd trimester without the mother's life being at risk. That's just morbid.

Edited by Ivysaur, 14 August 2012 - 01:16 AM.

[8143FF763271]

1) Hmm..you came off as kiiiind of a douche. I wonder why....
2) So..every kid with fucked up parents is going to end up as a burden to society?
Crap. I'm done for D:

I voted yes by default.
A woman should not be allowed to have more then a certain amount of abortions and all those abortions must be made during the first trimester.
3 months is MORE then enough to decide whether or not you want to keep a child.
Exceptions can and MUST be made if the mother's life is in danger.
As far as the father having a say; fuck no. It isn't your womb and it isn't your vagina that kid is going to be born from.

The only thing I have a problem with is abortions that occur in the 3rd trimester without the mother's life being at risk. That's just morbid.

It's a statistical fact that abortion rates negatively correlate crime rates. Most people get abortions for a good reason: They know they aren't fit to take care of the baby. Babies that aren't well taken care of, most likely than not, end up being burdens to society. Just how it goes. If we lived in a world where every person that is born had the same likelihood of being an upstanding citizen, I wouldn't make that argument... but we don't.

Edited by kami12, 14 August 2012 - 02:56 AM.

[HannahElizabeth]

Yeah, where are you getting those stats from? I mean, many societies have a blanket ban on abortions, and still have crime rates. Countries like England, where abortions are performed up to 24 weeks, also have a sky-high crime rate. Is there really a corelation between the two?

[Romy]

It's a statistical fact that abortion rates negatively correlate crime rates.

Made up stats don't count sadly.

Proof + Source?

You can be raised in a broken home and still become a well-rounded and productive member of society.

For my sake, I sure freaking hope so.

However, repeatedly screwing everything that moves, and repeatedly terminating the pregnancy is not okay by my standards, but that's a personal preference. I believe people who have sex should be responsible enough to know the risk, and not continue getting knocked up and aborting it

I don't disagree with anything you said but this. I think there should be a limit on the number of "no reason" abortions anyone can get.
I just feel it's significantly easier to get birth control then repeatedly have abortions.


EDIT: NEVER MIND! I MISUNDERSTOOD Xd

Abortion is a privilege that shouldn't be taken advantage of because of promiscuity.

Perfectly stated.

Edited by Ivysaur, 14 August 2012 - 07:24 AM.

[Romy]

I think you misunderstood.
I said exactly the same thing you just said, only worded differently.
I said it's "NOT" okay XD lol

*facepalm*
Sorry -__- I just woke up and my eyes are still super fuzzy.
I crossed out what I said xD

Edited by Ivysaur, 14 August 2012 - 07:24 AM.

[8143FF763271]

Yeah, where are you getting those stats from? I mean, many societies have a blanket ban on abortions, and still have crime rates. Countries like England, where abortions are performed up to 24 weeks, also have a sky-high crime rate. Is there really a corelation between the two?

England has a high crime rate LOL. Good one, maybe in Guy Ritchie films! The UK has a lower homicide rate than Finland! Also, that there's a correlation does not mean that fully allowing abortions will get rid of all crime. I don't even know how you assume that. That mothers who are to breed criminals wouldn't breed criminals if they abort =/= every mother that is going to breed a criminal will abort if abortions are legalized.

http://en.wikipedia....nd_crime_effect

That wikipedia article covers all the ground on the correlation between dropping crime rates and legalized abortion. You can check the sources.

Actually, it doesn't always work out that way.
You can be raised in the perfect home and still end up being a piece of soul sucking societal scum.
You can be raised in a broken home and still become a well-rounded and productive member of society.

Sure you can.

It just happens that statistically speaking that doesn't tend to be the case. The world isn't some existential happy land where every man is master of his own fate. We're slaves to our circumstances. It would be silly to say that crime is somehow the best option for moneyed people in developed nations with a financial safety net and comfortable access to higher education institutions.

Edited by kami12, 14 August 2012 - 08:27 AM.

[Mishelle]

The grand majority of late term abortions are performed because there's something medically wrong with the fetus, I think it's absolutely disgusting when states ban late term abortions because that means that women are forced to carry and birth babies only for them to die or babies that are already dead. Most abortions are done in the 1st trimester. Just read Freakanomics and it will explain how access to abortion lowers the crime rate. Crime rates may be high in America but they're still significantly lower than they were back when abortion was illegal. The only way to reduce abortion rates is to make sure every woman gets free access to birth control and family planning services. Banning abortion only makes women seek other methods that could be dangerous and even deadly.

[Romy]

Also, that there's a correlation does not mean that fully allowing abortions will get rid of all crime. I don't even know how you assume that. That mothers who are to breed criminals wouldn't breed criminals if they abort =/= every mother that is going to breed a criminal will abort if abortions are legalized.

http://en.wikipedia....nd_crime_effect

That wikipedia article covers all the ground on the correlation between dropping crime rates and legalized abortion. You can check the sources.

http://en.wikipedia....ortion_on_Crime
I hate to post Wiki as a source but...this expanded article elaborates on the Donahue-Levitt Hypothesis and provides a good amount of the flaws in the argument (such as environmental factors).

I also found a lot of newspapers claiming that the UK has a higher crime rate then the US but I will not link them because I cannot say for certain they are concrete.
Can you try to find some?

Edited by Ivysaur, 14 August 2012 - 08:50 AM.

[8143FF763271]

Why do I get so many dislikes on my posts? Most people here are pro-abortion, and I am arguing a pro-abortion stance, but I am telling you, concretely, the ethical implications of abortion and the benefits it renders society.

Why should that be disliked? Does it offend you? Does it offend you when someone says that when women get abortion, they may have a good reason to do it? Like not being able to raise a kid properly and a in comfortable environment? Or does it bother you that I have the intellectual integrity to admit that an unborn baby is a live human? Why should lying to ourselves be sought after... instead of critically assessing the stances we take? Must those who are pro-choice adhere to absurd definitions of life or embrace the non-sensical ethical notion that someone's autonomy is intrinsically worth more than another's life? Am I really being stigmatized here for being the only person sincere enough to admit we have a privilege that we should be free to use because it benefits us?

[Mishelle]

England does not have a higher crime rate than the US

[8143FF763271]

http://en.wikipedia....ortion_on_Crime
I hate to post Wiki as a source but...this expanded article elaborates on the Donahue-Levitt Hypothesis and provides a good amount of the flaws in the argument (such as environmental factors).

I also found a lot of newspapers claiming that the UK has a higher crime rate then the US but I will not link them because I cannot say for certain they are concrete.
Can you try to find some?

Wikipedia always offers the two sides of an argument. You can check the sources and draw your own conclusions. Personally, it's self evident to me that people get abortions when they don't have the means to provide a comfortable life to a baby, and it is also self evident to me that people are more likely to resort to crime when they don't have readily available comfort.

http://en.wikipedia....rate#By_country