563 replies to this topic

[Romy]

Wikipedia always offers the two sides of an argument. You can check the sources and draw your own conclusions. Personally, it's self evident to me that people get abortions when they don't have the means to provide a comfortable life to a baby, and it is also self evident to me that people are more likely to resort to crime when they don't have readily available comfort.

http://en.wikipedia....rate#By_country

1) Precisely why I linked you to the expanded Wiki page that elaborates on the counter-arguments.
2) Crime is not only homicide. (Not that I'm saying the UK has lower/higher crime rates then the US.)

[Mishelle]

Why do I get so many dislikes on my posts? Most people here are pro-abortion, and I am arguing a pro-abortion stance, but I am telling you, concretely, the ethical implications of abortion and the benefits it renders society.

Why should that be disliked? Does it offend you? Does it offend you when someone says that when women get abortion, they may have a good reason to do it? Like not being able to raise a kid properly and a in comfortable environment? Or does it bother you that I have the intellectual integrity to admit that an unborn baby is a live human? Why should lying to ourselves be sought after... instead of critically assessing the stances we take? Must those who are pro-choice adhere to absurd definitions of life or embrace the non-sensical ethical notion that someone's autonomy is intrinsically worth more than another's life? Am I really being stigmatized here for being the only person sincere enough to admit we have a privilege that we should be free to use because it benefits us?

Would you call an acorn an oak tree or an omelet a dead chicken?

Yes zygotes and fetuses are alive, no shit. But they're not humans, it's basically the building blocks of a human. A significant portion of fetuses are not going to become a human with or without abortions. It's such fragile matter that it doesn't make any sense to classify it as a being especially since a significant portion of pregnancies end in miscarriage

In one oft-cited study from 1988, researchers used extremely sensitive hCG tests throughout the menstrual cycles of women who were trying to conceive and who had no evidence of infertility. In that study, researchers found evidence that about 22% of all conceptions did not implant; the women had very tiny increases in hCG at the time implantation would have been expected, but not enough to be picked up by a typical pregnancy test. Of the conceptions that did implant and result in a clinically recognizable pregnancy, 31% ended in miscarriage.

http://miscarriage.a...f/70percent.htm

Does that factor into infant mortality rates? No, because they're not seen as human beings. And I'm also not liking that you don't know the actual definition of murder. This is the definition of a murder.

mur·der/ˈmərdər/
Noun: The unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another.

Abortion is legal. Not unlawful. Fetuses are fetuses, not human beings. And abortions are not premeditated. For it to be premeditated a woman would have to get pregnant for the SOLE reason of getting an abortion. Women aren't plotting against fetuses, they just don't want to be pregnant anymore.

I'm not the one downvoting you so I can't give you the exact reasons why they're downvoting you but I can say that you're not making any sense to me.

Edited by Mishelle, 14 August 2012 - 09:07 AM.

[8143FF763271]

1) Precisely why I linked you to the expanded Wiki page that elaborates on the counter-arguments.
2) Crime is not only homicide. (Not that I'm saying the UK has lower/higher crime rates then the US.)

No, it's not only homicide but homicide rates are the best statistical indicator of actual crime rates in countries. When we look up the normal "crime rate", you'll see that the most developed countries have the highest rates. Why? Because crimes get reported, whereas they don't in places where assault, domestic abuse, driving past a red light, and theft are normal occurrences. Homicide tends to get reported and accounted for all across the board so it tends to give the realest perspective of the crime situation in different places (these statistics tell us that Mexico is worse off than the US while something like assault statistics make Sweden the most violent country in the world).

Evidence: http://www.nationmas...me-assault-rate

Would you call an acorn an oak tree or an omelet a dead chicken?

Yes zygotes and fetuses are alive, no shit. But they're not humans, it's basically the building blocks of a human. A significant portion of fetuses are not going to become a human with or without abortions. It's such fragile matter that it doesn't make any sense to classify it as a being especially since a significant portion of pregnancies end in miscarriage



http://miscarriage.a...f/70percent.htm

Does that factor into infant mortality rates? No, because they're not seen as human beings. And I'm also not liking that you don't know the actual definition of murder. This is the definition of a murder.

mur·der/ˈmərdər/
Noun: The unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another.

Abortion is legal. Not unlawful. Fetuses are fetuses, not human beings. And abortions are not premeditated. For it to be premeditated a woman would have to get pregnant for the SOLE reason of getting an abortion. Women aren't plotting against fetuses, they just don't want to be pregnant anymore.

I'm not the one downvoting you so I can't give you the exact reasons why they're downvoting you but I can say that you're not making any sense to me.

Don't vegans follow this line of logic for omelets... everyday? Concerning fetuses, they have the DNA of a human and they are alive. How does that not make them human? What are they? Monkeys? How doesn't it make sense? Babies are pretty fragile too. I could drop one from a measly 4 feet height and it would die... so I shouldn't classify it as a human? Who the fuck even said that fragility has to do with whether things are alive or not, or human or not? Miscarriages happen often... so if cancer happens often, then people with cancer are not humans? Again, I am critically assessing your desire to put this into a logical/scientific framework. I am telling you that if we are to get a scientific definition involved, that fetuses are alive and that they are human. That's how the cookie crumbles.

To answer the fundamental part of your question: Do I care about unborn babies? No. They evoke no sympathy from me so I don't care about them. I care about born ones, they do evoke sympathy. However, I am NOT pretending that that sympathy is based on a rationalist framework the way you are by trying to define life and human along VERY arbitrary lines that don't hold up to the most rudimentary questioning.

They're not seen as human beings? Word. Hence, my main fucking point through all this argument: WE HAVE NEVER DEFINED LIFE SCIENTIFICALLY HERP-DERP SO IT'S STUPID TO PRETEND THAT SCIENCE WILL SETTLE THIS DISPUTE.

It isn't premeditated to kill your baby if you're pregnant? Do you know what premeditated means? A man doesn't have to marry his wife for his murder of her to be premeditated. He just has to plan it ahead. Or do people get abortions on whim in your world?

Edited by kami12, 14 August 2012 - 09:20 AM.

[Romy]

No, it's not only homicide but homicide rates are the best statistical indicator of actual crime rates in countries. When we look up the normal "crime rate", you'll see that the most developed countries have the highest rates. Why? Because crimes get reported, whereas they don't in places where assault, domestic abuse, driving past a red light, and theft are normal occurrences. Homicide tends to get reported and accounted for all across the board so it tends to give the realest perspective of the crime situation in different places (these statistics tell us that Mexico is worse off than the US while something like assault statistics make Sweden the most violent country in the world).

Evidence: http://www.nationmas...me-assault-rate

http://wordnetweb.pr...wn?s=crime rate

Noun

• S: (n) crime rate (the ratio of crimes in an area to the population of that area; expressed per 1000 population per year)

Jesus man. I asked for crime rates. Not murder rates or assault rates.
Criiiiiime rates.

They're not seen as human beings? Word. Hence, my main fucking point through all this argument: WE HAVE NEVER DEFINED LIFE SCIENTIFICALLY HERP-DERP SO IT'S STUPID TO PRETEND THAT SCIENCE WILL SETTLE THIS DISPUTE.

Why do I get so many dislikes on my posts?

She did not disrespect you in any fucking way. Be mindful of what you post.

Edited by Ivysaur, 14 August 2012 - 09:26 AM.

[Mishelle]

Don't vegans follow this line of logic for omelets... everyday? Concerning fetuses, they have the DNA of a human and they are alive. How does that not make them human? What are they? Monkeys? How doesn't it make sense? Babies are pretty fragile too. I could drop one from a measly 4 feet height and it would die... so I shouldn't classify it as a human? Who the fuck even said that fragility has to do with whether things are alive or not, or human or not? Miscarriages happen often... so if cancer happens often, then people with cancer are not humans? Again, I am critically assessing your desire to put this into a logical/scientific framework. I am telling you that if we are to get scientific definition involved, that fetuses are alive and that they are human. That's how the cookie crumbles.

Vegans don't eat animal byproducts. Vegans don't drink milk either, you're not going to get a cow from milk. Many vegitarians also eat eggs. Skin sells also have the dna of a human and are alive, that doesn't make it human. Like I said, they're living human cells , yes, but they don't breathe, think, or anything like a human until a certain point of time IF THEY'RE LUCKY. Like I've ALREADY SAID, they're the building blocks of a human. Like seeds, are not flowers; fetuses are not humans. You can drop a person with a bone disorder from 4 feet and it could die too. That's not the point because those have actually made it past the birthing process and they're sentient, fetuses have not. Please stop making these ridiculous straw man arguments. I haven't seen you post any kind of scholarly scientific source that fetuses are regarded as human beings. They're human matter yes, but not human beings and in order for something to be murder it has to be a human BEING.

Answer the fundamental part of your question. Do I care about unborn babies? No. They evoke no sympathy from me so I don't care about them. I care about born ones, they do evoke sympathy. However, I am NOT pretending that that sympathy is based on a rationalist framework the way you are trying to define life and human along VERY arbitrary lines that don't hold up to the most rudimentary questioning.

They're not seen as human beings? Word. Hence, my main fucking point through all this argument: WE HAVE NEVER DEFINED LIFE SCIENTIFICALLY HERP-DERP SO IT'S STUPID TO PRETEND THAT SCIENCE WILL SETTLE THIS DISPUTE.

It isn't premeditated to kill your baby if you're pregnant? Do you know what premeditated means? A man doesn't have to marry his wife for his murder of her to be premeditated. He just has to plan it ahead. Or do people get abortions on whim in your world?

premeditatedpast participle, past tense of pre·med·i·tate
Verb: Think out or plan (an action, esp. a crime) beforehand: "premeditated murder".

WHO PLANS THEIR ABORTION IN ADVANCE? It goes like this, a woman gets pregnant and she makes the decision whether or not to have an abortion. It is a decision, she doesn't plan out the entire process of getting an abortion. Just like when you find out you have cancer you make the decision to get chemotherapy, you don't premeditate it.

[Sweeney]

One guy makes an obnoxious, incorrect, but otherwise well written post.

Other members respond with negative reps and poorly reasoned rebuttals.

This is why we can't have nice things.

[8143FF763271]

http://wordnetweb.pr...wn?s=crime rate

Noun

• S: (n) crime rate (the ratio of crimes in an area to the population of that area; expressed per 1000 population per year)

Jesus man. I asked for crime rates. Not murder rates or assault rates.
Criiiiiime rates.






She did not disrespect you in any fucking way. Be mindful of what you post.

I am only being sincere. It would do people good if they read and assessed what they were reading before they replied. Maybe you'd have understood, for example, why homicide rates are better crime rates than crime rates by now instead of pushing it.

If you really need me to prove my point:
http://www.nationmas...me-total-crimes

You see Colombia? #36. Sweden? #16. Canada? #8. France? #4.

These statistics are for crimes REPORTED. Where crime is more prevalent, it doesn't get reported at all unless it's homicide. Hence, why NO ONE uses "crime rate" statistics seriously in cultural studies. They use the murder rate since it's the one that gives the most realistic picture of how much crime actually goes on (murder tends to get accounted for in most nations).

[Romy]

I am only being sincere. It would do people good if they read and assessed what they were reading before they replied.

Either way, you cannot be condescending or disrespectful and expect not to get down-voted for it.

Spoiler

Unless you're Sweeney. Sweeney, like the Honey Badger, don't give a shit.

These statistics are for crimes REPORTED. Where crime is more prevalent, it doesn't get reported at all unless it's homicide. Hence, why NO ONE uses "crime rate" statistics seriously in cultural studies. They use the murder rate since it's the one that gives the most realistic picture of how much crime actually goes on (murder tends to get accounted for in most nations).

Homicide rates (the number of murders per 100,000 inhabitants) only represent the most extreme form of contact crime and thus do not inform of more typical safety conditions. They are however a more reliable measure of a country’s safety level because, unlike other crimes, murders are usually always reported to the police.
Source: http://www.oecdbette.../topics/safety/

Touche'. I concede. You are correct in a much more general standpoint.

My point was that in countries where reporting a crime is as easy as calling the Law Enforcement (i.e Developed countries) crime rates are a more reliable way of gauging how violent/unsafe a country is.

Now when comparing El Salvador to France, the homicide rates are a much more "accurate" way of comparing how safe the respective countries are. (Because the methods of reporting a crime differ drastically.)

Edited by Ivysaur, 14 August 2012 - 09:52 AM.

[8143FF763271]

Vegans don't eat animal byproducts. Vegans don't drink milk either, you're not going to get a cow from milk. Many vegitarians also eat eggs. Skin sells also have the dna of a human and are alive, that doesn't make it human. Like I said, they're living human cells , yes, but they don't breathe, think, or anything like a human until a certain point of time IF THEY'RE LUCKY. Like I've ALREADY SAID, they're the building blocks of a human. Like seeds, are not flowers; fetuses are not humans. You can drop a person with a bone disorder from 4 feet and it could die too. That's not the point because those have actually made it past the birthing process and they're sentient, fetuses have not. Please stop making these ridiculous straw man arguments. I haven't seen you post any kind of scholarly scientific source that fetuses are regarded as human beings. They're human matter yes, but not human beings and in order for something to be murder it has to be a human BEING.

Again, you're looking for new definitions and they're again arbitrary. First, that they were fragile didn't make them human. Now you're redefining it, on new criteria:
A) They must go through a birth process to be human.
B) They must be sentient.

So, what's the difference between a baby that has been given birth to and an unborn one? Their environment. One's ecosystem is it's mother's womb and the other's is the outside of it's mother's womb. So humans are less humans... depending on where they live? And what's that about "sentience"? Sentience defines human life? Does that mean that people in a vegetable state are officially dead? Because we often go through pretty harsh measures to keep them alive.

If you need sources for me to prove that unborn babies are both alive and human:

http://infohost.nmt....tcs_of_life.htm

There. 6th grade biology for you.

I'll let you do the math on whether these living organisms meet the taxon of humans or amoeba.

premeditatedpast participle, past tense of pre·med·i·tate
Verb: Think out or plan (an action, esp. a crime) beforehand: "premeditated murder".

WHO PLANS THEIR ABORTION IN ADVANCE? It goes like this, a woman gets pregnant and she makes the decision whether or not to have an abortion. It is a decision, she doesn't plan out the entire process of getting an abortion. Just like when you find out you have cancer you make the decision to get chemotherapy, you don't premeditate it.

Bro... what the hell is this? Premeditated means you plan it ahead. You plan to get an abortion once you are pregnant. You plan to murder your father once you are written in his will. You plan to rob a bank once you know there's money there. You plan to go to chemotherapy once you have cancer. Of course these things are premeditated...

Either way, you cannot be condescending or disrespectful and expect not to get down-voted for it.

Spoiler

Unless you're Sweeney. Sweeney, like the Honey Badger, don't give a shit.

[/size][/font][/color]

Touche'. I concede. You are correct in a much more general standpoint.

My point was that in countries where reporting a crime is as easy as calling the Law Enforcement (i.e Developed countries) crime rates are a more reliable way of gauging how violent/unsafe a country is.

Now when comparing El Salvador to France, the homicide rates are a much more "accurate" way of comparing how safe the respective countries are. (Because the methods of reporting a crime differ drastically.)

True... but even then the US has a higher crime rate than Britain.

[Romy]

True... but even then the US has a higher crime rate than Britain.

Thank you for handling that with without any arrogance whatsoever.

There. 6th grade biology for you.

The d-bag tendencies again -__-t
EDIT:

Edited by Ivysaur, 14 August 2012 - 10:13 AM.

[Mishelle]

Again, you're looking for new definitions and they're again arbitrary. First, that they were fragile didn't make them human. Now you're redefining it, on new criteria:
A) They must go through a birth process to be human.
B) They must be sentient.

So, what's the difference between a baby that has been given birth to and an unborn one? Their environment. One's ecosystem is it's mother's womb and the other's is the outside of it's mother's womb. So humans are less humans... depending on where they live? And what's that about "sentience"? Sentience defines human life? Does that mean that people in a vegetable state are officially dead? Because we often go through pretty harsh measures to keep them alive.

If you need sources for me to prove that unborn babies are both alive and human:

http://infohost.nmt....tcs_of_life.htm

There. 6th grade biology for you.

I'll let you do the math on whether these living organisms meet the taxon of humans or amoeba.

I think we're misunderstanding each other here. Yes it's human, it's part of a human. That's pretty obvious. The point is it's not a human BEING. And for something to be murder it has to be the murder of a human BEING by another human BEING. Fetuses are not human BEINGS. Also you didn't acknowledge the fundamental flaw in your argument that abortion is murder. Abortion is perfectly legal.

Bro... what the hell is this? Premeditated means you plan it ahead. You plan to get an abortion once you are pregnant. You plan to murder your father once you are written in his will. You plan to rob a bank once you know there's money there. You plan to go to chemotherapy once you have cancer. Of course these things are premeditated...

In the instance of murder premeditation means to planned the murder before hand with intent to harm this person. The intent behind abortion is not to harm the fetus the intent is to not be pregnant anymore. When you bring a murder up to court whether or not you get 1st degree murder or manslaughter is INTENT. There's a huge difference between making a decision that only effects your own life and murdering another HUMAN BEING. And again just in case you missed it the first time. For something to be murdered the killing must be unlawful.

[8143FF763271]

I think we're misunderstanding each other here. Yes it's human, it's part of a human. That's pretty obvious. The point is it's not a human BEING. And for something to be murder it has to be the murder of a human BEING by another human BEING. Fetuses are not human BEINGS. Also you didn't acknowledge the fundamental flaw in your argument that abortion is murder. Abortion is perfectly legal.

Oh, for it to be murder it has to be illegal? My bad. It just seemed easier than saying the premeditated and systemic termination of the life of a group of living humans.

I thought human beings were living organisms that belonged to the homo sapiens species. I must be wrong! You clearly are operating on another definition I haven't been made privy to.

In the instance of murder premeditation means to planned the murder before hand with intent to harm this person. The intent behind abortion is not to harm the fetus the intent is to not be pregnant anymore. When you bring a murder up to court whether or not you get 1st degree murder or manslaughter is INTENT. There's a huge difference between making a decision that only effects your own life and murdering another HUMAN BEING. And again just in case you missed it the first time. For something to be murdered the killing must be unlawful.

Intent to harm the person means you have the intention of hurting the person, not that your motivation is hurting the person. I don't know what country you're from, but in most nations saying that you didn't really want to kill your dad and just wanted to get the inheritance isn't going to prevent the murder penalty. People don't get involuntary manslaughter when they kill their neighbors for being noisy, they get involuntary manslaughter when they accidentally run someone over. 6th grade law.

Also, I should note it doesn't just affect your life given that you're, you know, terminating someone else's.

Edited by kami12, 14 August 2012 - 10:28 AM.

[Mishelle]

Killing is a part of life. People kill in war, they kill to protect themselves or others, and people also kill for more sinister reasons that is deemed illegal for obvious reasons. There's justified killing and unjustified killing. My entire point in this entire conversation is that to say abortion is murder is illogical and factually incorrect.

[8143FF763271]

Killing is a part of life. People kill in war, they kill to protect themselves or others, and people also kill for more sinister reasons that is deemed illegal for obvious reasons. There's justified killing and unjustified killing. My entire point in this entire conversation is that to say abortion is murder is illogical and factually incorrect.

Oh. Word? All that nonsense, irrelevance, non sequitur, fallacious argumentation... and you just wanted to correct me on my use of the word murder? Gee, talk about taking the hard path.

[HappyAccident]

Killing is a part of life. People kill in war, they kill to protect themselves or others, and people also kill for more sinister reasons that is deemed illegal for obvious reasons. There's justified killing and unjustified killing. My entire point in this entire conversation is that to say abortion is murder is illogical and factually incorrect.

You have reached your quota of positive votes for the day

[Mishelle]

Because people spreading that abortion is murder nonsense perpetuates the same bs that gets women in south america thrown in prison. Everyone knows abortion is killing but using terms such as murder propagates the connoation of illegality and punishment.

If you want to get technical, it's not murder, it's infanticide.

For abortion to be infanticide you'd have to kill an infant. A fetus doesn't become an infant til the 3rd trimester.

Edited by Mishelle, 14 August 2012 - 10:43 AM.

[8143FF763271]

If you want to get technical, it's not murder, it's infanticide.

Duly noted. Will definitely use that next time to avoid a long winded and fallacy-ridden discussion about everything under the hot sun because someone is trying to tell me that... it can't be murder if it isn't illegal!

[Mishelle]

Its hard to follow what type of argument you're trying to make when you're trying to propose simple facts as profound statements about humanity. No one is saying fetuses aren't human, the argument is whether or not they are human beings which comes with rights. Human matter doesn't get rights, human beings do.

[8143FF763271]

Because people spreading that abortion is murder nonsense perpetuates the same bs that gets women in south america thrown in prison. Everyone knows abortion is killing but using terms such as murder propagates the connoation of illegality and punishment.



For abortion to be infanticide you'd have to kill an infant. A fetus doesn't become an infant til the 3rd trimester.

At this point I just don't know if you're trolling. You do realize that if you kill someone... and you get thrown in prison for it, then it is both killing and illegal and, thus, meets your criteria for murder? What the hell is getting thrown in prison for a "connotation" of illegality? "Oh, I am not stealing from you. I am merely taking your property without permission. Please don't use the word steal because that has connotations of illegality."


Just killing, bro!

Its hard to follow what type of argument you're trying to make when you're trying to propose simple facts as profound statements about humanity. No one is saying fetuses aren't human, the argument is whether or not they are human beings which comes with rights. Human matter doesn't get rights, human beings do.

Like blacks weren't human beings back in the day.
I mean they were human matter...
Just not human beings with rights... you get me?

[Mishelle]

At this point I just don't know if you're trolling. You do realize that if you kill someone... and you get thrown in prison for it, then it is both killing and illegal and, thus, meets your criteria for murder? What the hell is getting thrown in prison for a "connotation" of illegality? "Oh, I am not stealing from you. I am merely taking your property without permission. Please don't use the word steal because that has connotations of illegality."


Just killing, bro!

Actually no. If you kill in war you don't get thrown in jail. If you kill in self defense you also don't get jail time. Just look at trayvon martin. Zimmerman stated he killed in self defense, he was not taken to jail. He wasn't taken to jail until people found evidence that the killing may not have been in self defense. Not every person who kills gets jail time.

When I say abortion is murder, it carries the connotation that abortion is unlawful killing which it is not. The entire abortion debate carries a lot of emphasis on words and terms used, I suggest you read Abortion and the Politics of Motherhood for deeper insight on the debate.

Edited by Mishelle, 14 August 2012 - 10:50 AM.

[8143FF763271]

Actually no. If you kill in war you don't get thrown in jail. If you kill in self defense you also don't get jail time. Just look at trayvon martin. Zimmerman stated he killed in self defense, he was not taken to jail. He wasn't taken to jail until people found evidence that the killing may not have been in self defense. Not every person who kills gets jail time.

Self-defense is a form of voluntary manslaughter in the US that does get jail time.

Sure, some stances of "killing" might be legal but, by your definition, once they are not... they are murder. If someone is getting thrown in jail for killing babies, then killing babies is murder.

That's just your logic. Illegal killing = murder.
Therefore, getting thrown in jail for killing a baby = murder.

Edited by kami12, 14 August 2012 - 10:55 AM.

[Mishelle]

Like blacks weren't human beings back in the day.
I mean they were human matter...
Just not human beings with rights... you get me?

They were human beings in the sense that they are born but they weren't considered people under the law. Awas that wrong, yes. They campaigned for civil rights and got them. There are still human beings fighting for civil rights but there's a difference between civil rights and human rights.

Edited by Mishelle, 14 August 2012 - 10:54 AM.

[Frizzle]

Sure, some stances of "killing" might be legal but, by your definition, once they are not... they are murder. If someone is getting thrown in jail for killing babies, then killing babies is murder.

Please explain reactionary incidents and instant-arming then please?